Totally agree they had 12 rounds to line up a replacement if that was their intention....(which ultimately it was). That was my biggest gripe to Pascoe.
Our ambition for the rest of the season and beyond?
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twentyforty
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I honestly thought that the board had some kind of strategy when they were continually leaking the eminent sacking of Maguire to media.
As it happens, they were systematically undermining the coach in order to build a dossier of reasons he had to go.
In the wash up, he wasn’t sacked because he couldn’t coach. His coaching skill was never in question.
Madge was sacked because he was a square peg and the team was a round hole. But the kicker was we had only a 3-9 record. It’s a results business. Had Madden not given the ball to the Titans in the final minute of that game, we would have a 4-8 record.
What excuse would we be given under those circumstances?
As it happens, they were systematically undermining the coach in order to build a dossier of reasons he had to go.
In the wash up, he wasn’t sacked because he couldn’t coach. His coaching skill was never in question.
Madge was sacked because he was a square peg and the team was a round hole. But the kicker was we had only a 3-9 record. It’s a results business. Had Madden not given the ball to the Titans in the final minute of that game, we would have a 4-8 record.
What excuse would we be given under those circumstances?
The biggest part also was we had injuries and a suspension to our 7 in the first few rounds....and before anyone bags me and says injuries happen to all teams,just remember we have a very LIMITED depth to choose replacements from...this made Madges job even harder and the inevitable sacking based on results...
He didnt have a fair platform to win games with what he had as a makeshift side week to week but the team did well even though they lost games...Those 2 close losses converted to wins would have made a big difference to where we stand atm..
Who the hell wants a head coaching gig at the WTs the way this club is run atm...
Jolls
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You have made me contemplate this. I hear and feel the pain and initially thought it is what it is and there is bugger all we can do about it.
But I think that is wrong. We can continue to whine about shit and trot down the centre of the park with the same mentality and kick it to the winger on the 5th and hope for a lucky catch or bounce. Or we (the royal we) can try to do something about it.
So what do we do? We can establish a solid platform to work from. We can experiment. We can develop a strategy for how to unhinge the Penrith/Storm model. OR We can keep doing the same old WT thing.
This is a huge opportunity to look at WT in a strategic sense and identify who we want to be and how we want to play going forward. Despite what many think I believe we have a solid foundation to build from. The club is not in a financial mess, we have some football leadership in pace (love Sheens or hate him) and a clean out is happening. Players having too much of a say seems to have been dealt with and, if we believe the players, morale is good despite the lack of success. So the players have taken the plan on board (we just don't know what it is)
What do we need as supporters - a bit of communication would be nice. How about us understanding the direction the club is planning to take - maybe a vision that we could buy into. How about Sheens telling us what direction our football will take. I know they have networking events for the sponsors - but what about those of us that don't have few $K to kick in? Doesn't mean we are less of a supporter to our club or the players. Can't say I ever played footy for sponsors - I played for my mates, my family, the jumper and the fan (my girlfriend and now wife - wasn't that good of a player to have fans)
I personally would like to club to have a hard look at our values. I think they should be simple and if the players or staff don't live up to them they get punted. They probably should look something like:
It's not about everything being rosy, far from it, but we have an opportunity to plan, experiment and develop.
End of rant
Cheers n Beers
Jolls
But I think that is wrong. We can continue to whine about shit and trot down the centre of the park with the same mentality and kick it to the winger on the 5th and hope for a lucky catch or bounce. Or we (the royal we) can try to do something about it.
So what do we do? We can establish a solid platform to work from. We can experiment. We can develop a strategy for how to unhinge the Penrith/Storm model. OR We can keep doing the same old WT thing.
This is a huge opportunity to look at WT in a strategic sense and identify who we want to be and how we want to play going forward. Despite what many think I believe we have a solid foundation to build from. The club is not in a financial mess, we have some football leadership in pace (love Sheens or hate him) and a clean out is happening. Players having too much of a say seems to have been dealt with and, if we believe the players, morale is good despite the lack of success. So the players have taken the plan on board (we just don't know what it is)
What do we need as supporters - a bit of communication would be nice. How about us understanding the direction the club is planning to take - maybe a vision that we could buy into. How about Sheens telling us what direction our football will take. I know they have networking events for the sponsors - but what about those of us that don't have few $K to kick in? Doesn't mean we are less of a supporter to our club or the players. Can't say I ever played footy for sponsors - I played for my mates, my family, the jumper and the fan (my girlfriend and now wife - wasn't that good of a player to have fans)
I personally would like to club to have a hard look at our values. I think they should be simple and if the players or staff don't live up to them they get punted. They probably should look something like:
- Mateship. Put your mates needs and wants before your own each and every time. That is both on the field and off the field. There is no need to look after yourself because your mates will do that for you.
- Courage. Not the type of courage to storm a machine gun pit (although that would be good too); but the courage to make the hard right decision, the courage to push through adversity and the courage to own your mistakes.
- Loyalty. Loyalty to your mates, first and foremost, the team and the club.
It's not about everything being rosy, far from it, but we have an opportunity to plan, experiment and develop.
End of rant
Cheers n Beers
Jolls
Harry is a business man though. No matter how much personal wealth he may have he didn’t accumulate by being charitable.
That’s where we are at. The club is charity.
We even have a charity foundation set up to fund our spending.
I’m not surprised Harry hasn’t opened his wallet with no clear return of investment.
Wait a minute. Didn’t we attempt this in 2016 when we signed their then acting CEO?
Will just become a community space for the Inner Sydney residents.
I’m sure the Waratahs would be interested in the COE side.
A couple of grand spent on resurfacing.
Easy done!
Most of the investment was from Government and local council. I wonder if they have rights to ownership?
Fair dinkum, some of you guys should change your usernames to eeyore the donkey.
Off field we're doing ok. Turning a profit, getting our own academy, getting junior programs back up and running that we're neglected for a very long time. Same can't be said for a lot of other clubs.
Avoiding the spoon and getting some pride in the joint should be our big goal.
Off field we're doing ok. Turning a profit, getting our own academy, getting junior programs back up and running that we're neglected for a very long time. Same can't be said for a lot of other clubs.
Avoiding the spoon and getting some pride in the joint should be our big goal.
Well articulated yourself.
One thing you mentioned is Successful again.
Sure it’s a premiership and two other finals appearances in the clubs existence.
But is that really the metrics to be measuring success?
2017 all over again. Manly, Barrett, Ivan Cleary available….
#Jolls4CEO
twentyforty
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Yes, we did and then we signed their coach, a coach more experienced than his current assistant. When you string together the so called attempts to increase the club’s winning ratio, what you find is actions motivated by revenge. The sort of behaviour not expected from a board of directors, but a horde of fans.
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twentyforty
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There were many reasons for Maguires sacking to be labelled unfair, given the circumstances, and perhaps that’s why it took the board possibly 2 years to sack him. The 6 months fully paid holiday by the CEO one of them. Maybe they viewed Madge as a cleaner?
I would love to know what he said to them to get his reprieve for another 12 games.
I agree with the seemingly unanimous view of the NRL360 panel.. there will be no improvement while the fans are running the show.
Long read warning, understand if some want to skip.
The long and short of it is 3 years is not enough, Penrith started to put things in motion 11 years ago and despite all the factors below only became a competitive force 2 years ago.
In my estimation if we start now and continue on this path we will have success by the end of this decade. I’d be shocked if it happens sooner.
Let’s put our current plan and expectancies into perspective.
Using the Panthers rising success as a metric.
Outlining all their components to reach that level of success.
A) A history of success at the club - ie Past premiership/s.
B) A catchment area of talented juniors
C) A well backed financial organisation
D) A well managed sporting organisation
E) Senior leaders
F) Players who are best is their respective positions or have the potential to be.
G) A well constructed coaching staff.
H) A history of junior development and the harnessing of such.
I) A successful retention and recruitment plan.
J) An attractive club for Marquees or the like.
K) An academy set up to focus on the development of positional skill sets. Ie their halves academy.
And in terms of supporting infrastructure.
L) A COE, toured the best in nsw when established.
M) A fixed home ground, accessible to the local community and featuring all or most of the seasons home games.
Now to ‘measure that against our own current position and whether we have the right ingredients for success.
A) 1991 and 2003 us 2005 but unlike Penrith who before the past two years Penrith they last made the top 4 in 2010 they started their 5 year plan just half a year after in mid 2011. We haven’t been in the top 8 since 2011 and are starting our 5 year plan 10 years later. X
B) Penrith, Blacktown have historically been the most competitive Junior leagues in Sydney and Penrith is now recruiting from over the Mountains as well. Us the Macathur region is growing in population and without going into a specific demographic analysis I would say contains a strong Polynesian community. When I was a kid, this region was a strong competitive area for junior footy. With the recent success of the 17s the 16s and some 19s players showing plenty of potential it’s fair to say we may be on the right track with this. So 1/2 ✅
C) there is no doubt that we are competitive and well backed financially and corporately. So ✅
D) Penrith got their ducks in a row appointing former club legend and coach Phil Gould into a head of football role in 2011, holding this position until 2019 there is no doubt about Gus’s influence on the club on / off the field and as portrayed in the media. We last year appointed Sheens on a 3 or so year contract to head up a simialr set up. So ✅
E) Penriths leadership group features local juniors and strong competitors currently at representative level. Of our 5 named captains. Only Doeuihi shows potential of this, Twal was dropped who would also be a good leader nominee and Tamou is on the path to retirement and Brooks, Nofo, Peachey are not displaying any leadership qualities worth pursuing. So X.
F) goes without saying. Us X.
G) No coaching set up as yet so X.
H) Penrith undisputable junior talent throughout the years.
Too many to name.
Us plenty of talented rookies have come and left the club and moved on to better things. X.
I) same as above really. X
J) Penrith were struggling in this area until 2009 when they signed Petro Cineroceva to a retirement package. Huge signing for them but the team only managed to lift for as long as petro was a part of their club. Following that the Maligned Jamie Soward and local junior Wallace signed on in 2014. Merrin in 2016 and Tamou 2017 and Maloney 2018. All except Soward were at the peak of their game.
Us, haven’t signed one Marquee since Gareth Ellis who wasn’t inconsistent or didn’t have the durability to support their price tag. Closest next best was Matolino whom lasted 2 seasons. X
K) Established under Gould, Graduates Luia, Cleary and O’Sullivan. Not sure where we sit in this focus but have Kimmorely. 1/2 ✅
L) Penrith Panthers Academy (COE) started in 2016 all debuting juniors bar Issah Yeo in the current team progressed through this academy. The COE is ready to go from next month. ✅
M) No decision has been publicly made regarding this, suggestions are we are moving to a more permanent set up out of Campbelltown which could certainly help in this space. X until advised otherwise.
The long and short of it is 3 years is not enough, Penrith started to put things in motion 11 years ago and despite all the factors below only became a competitive force 2 years ago.
In my estimation if we start now and continue on this path we will have success by the end of this decade. I’d be shocked if it happens sooner.
Let’s put our current plan and expectancies into perspective.
Using the Panthers rising success as a metric.
Outlining all their components to reach that level of success.
A) A history of success at the club - ie Past premiership/s.
B) A catchment area of talented juniors
C) A well backed financial organisation
D) A well managed sporting organisation
E) Senior leaders
F) Players who are best is their respective positions or have the potential to be.
G) A well constructed coaching staff.
H) A history of junior development and the harnessing of such.
I) A successful retention and recruitment plan.
J) An attractive club for Marquees or the like.
K) An academy set up to focus on the development of positional skill sets. Ie their halves academy.
And in terms of supporting infrastructure.
L) A COE, toured the best in nsw when established.
M) A fixed home ground, accessible to the local community and featuring all or most of the seasons home games.
Now to ‘measure that against our own current position and whether we have the right ingredients for success.
A) 1991 and 2003 us 2005 but unlike Penrith who before the past two years Penrith they last made the top 4 in 2010 they started their 5 year plan just half a year after in mid 2011. We haven’t been in the top 8 since 2011 and are starting our 5 year plan 10 years later. X
B) Penrith, Blacktown have historically been the most competitive Junior leagues in Sydney and Penrith is now recruiting from over the Mountains as well. Us the Macathur region is growing in population and without going into a specific demographic analysis I would say contains a strong Polynesian community. When I was a kid, this region was a strong competitive area for junior footy. With the recent success of the 17s the 16s and some 19s players showing plenty of potential it’s fair to say we may be on the right track with this. So 1/2 ✅
C) there is no doubt that we are competitive and well backed financially and corporately. So ✅
D) Penrith got their ducks in a row appointing former club legend and coach Phil Gould into a head of football role in 2011, holding this position until 2019 there is no doubt about Gus’s influence on the club on / off the field and as portrayed in the media. We last year appointed Sheens on a 3 or so year contract to head up a simialr set up. So ✅
E) Penriths leadership group features local juniors and strong competitors currently at representative level. Of our 5 named captains. Only Doeuihi shows potential of this, Twal was dropped who would also be a good leader nominee and Tamou is on the path to retirement and Brooks, Nofo, Peachey are not displaying any leadership qualities worth pursuing. So X.
F) goes without saying. Us X.
G) No coaching set up as yet so X.
H) Penrith undisputable junior talent throughout the years.
Too many to name.
Us plenty of talented rookies have come and left the club and moved on to better things. X.
I) same as above really. X
J) Penrith were struggling in this area until 2009 when they signed Petro Cineroceva to a retirement package. Huge signing for them but the team only managed to lift for as long as petro was a part of their club. Following that the Maligned Jamie Soward and local junior Wallace signed on in 2014. Merrin in 2016 and Tamou 2017 and Maloney 2018. All except Soward were at the peak of their game.
Us, haven’t signed one Marquee since Gareth Ellis who wasn’t inconsistent or didn’t have the durability to support their price tag. Closest next best was Matolino whom lasted 2 seasons. X
K) Established under Gould, Graduates Luia, Cleary and O’Sullivan. Not sure where we sit in this focus but have Kimmorely. 1/2 ✅
L) Penrith Panthers Academy (COE) started in 2016 all debuting juniors bar Issah Yeo in the current team progressed through this academy. The COE is ready to go from next month. ✅
M) No decision has been publicly made regarding this, suggestions are we are moving to a more permanent set up out of Campbelltown which could certainly help in this space. X until advised otherwise.
That's all good, and well said, but I for one thought that was where we were when we hired Maguire. Watching this club's fumblings makes me feel like I'm walking the wrong way on a travelator. I trip over, look up and suddenly I'm back where I started. OK so now another rebuild. And in another three years?
Jolls
Well-known member
I think you are 100% correct. We clearly got it wrong otherwise we wouldn't be here. If they did do the planning it certainly wasn't well communicated and if they were doing their jobs right they would have reviewed and adjusted the plan along the way. They (we) blamed Cleary for the first couple of years but then dished up the same pile of poo afterwards. So there was certainly something wrong with the plan! Time to see what has worked, keep that, and plan again.
I sort of got Madge's plan - keep it simple and get the foundation right, but I think we can do better. Just because all the other teams are doing one thing doesn't mean we have to follow blindly along.
We need to pick what works for us too, clone that we can and then add what we want to make us different. Copying Penrith and Melbourne won't win us a comp; it will get us closer, but, until we (and others) work out the weakness to their patterns we will always be a step behind.
I think the key is not so much what happens on the ball, but what happens off it - both on the field and off it.
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PJ2
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mikey
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Or a pair.
