Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

Tiger_Yoshi said:
Do we have any decent middles coming through the pathways?...
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there’s a few, but its hard to get a read on middles and where they’re at because a lot of them take time.

I’m a big fan of Peter Taai, Maddax Fui, Christian Tapau-Moors and Siotame Havea, who are the core nucleus of our Wests HM forward pack. all of them have something a little different to offer and have been crucial to the success of that side.

Jordan Miller and Chris Faagutu are both in and around the NRL squad at the moment but are still 12-18 months off first grade at least and even then have some work to do.

Balmain’s not my strong suit and there’s a few people that watch Flegg a little closer than me, but I can expand a little more on the four from Wests Matts that I mentioned if you’d like.
 
jrtiger said:
there’s a few, but its hard to get a read on middles and where they’re at because a lot of them take time.

I’m a big fan of Peter Taai, Maddax Fui, Christian Tapau-Moors and Siotame Havea, who are the core nucleus of our Wests HM forward pack. all of them have something a little different to offer and have been crucial to the success of that side.

Jordan Miller and Chris Faagutu are both in and around the NRL squad at the moment but are still 12-18 months off first grade at least and even then have some work to do.

Balmain’s not my strong suit and there’s a few people that watch Flegg a little closer than me, but I can expand a little more on the four from Wests Matts that I mentioned if you’d like.
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Thanks @jrtiger would be very interested to hear more of your insights into our HM middles. There is PJ French & Ta'ai in the team as well who made rep sides last year.

I'm hopeful that Vaka Aho in Flegg has the qualities to progress a lot further. Herman is another given his impact in attack, others have questioned his fitness.
 
GNR4LIFE said:
The fact you felt the need to offer it up as an excuse showed you were looking for an out. There was no excuse for turning up as limp as we did.
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Incorrect.

It was a contributing factor.

We don't live in fairyland. Losing key players impacts a number of metrics as to the performance on game day. You're arguing a strawman.

My original point was that, despite being undermanned and playing terribly, we were a bounce away from being 3 tries a piece.

That is more a comment on how much closer we were to the Dragons than people think, despite how we played or who we were missing.

Nuance matters.
 
balmain boy said:
What this season so far has shown is how bad we've gotten recruitment wrong for many years. Even with our current batch of young stars coming through, many of them don't have the physical traits common to NRL players.

For whatever reason we've been incredibly attracted to nuggets, small and stocky types. Currently we have Olam, Feledy and Faatape in the centres, Kit and Luke Laulilii, Faagautu, Pole, Papali'i, Bateman, Mason, Tumeth, Craig, Tofaeono, Kepaoa who are all well undersized for their positions. Excluding halves that are expected to be smaller so Api, TDS, Sezer, Sullivan get a reprieve. Size isn't always everything but if you're carrying small players side by side in multiple positions at once those big and stronger players will always force their way through eventually. If they're slightly out of position they can't compete with the power, as was extremely evident yesterday. Out of the players listed above it's highly unlikely that more than 2-3 will be playing first grade for us in a couple of years time.

How many of our juniors could have competed with Lomax yesterday? From our previous champion Harold Matts squad where many of our players have come from to date, none of them could have competed with him. Only Makasini and newly acquired Nav Willett would have had a chance. How many of our forwards have the build and mindset to dent an opposition defence? Fainu, Utoikamanu, Pole (when he feels like it). That's it. 3 forwards who might be able to break the line if they try hard enough. It's not good enough.

Storm recruits players based on physical attributes and teaches them the rest. We recruit hard working leaders and then try create them into powerhouses. Which rarely works.

Moving forwards our back should be minimum a minimum of 185cm 90kgs+, forwards 190cm, 105kgs+. This is what other clubs do, we can't just rely on the small players to punch above their weights collectively.

At least there are some youngster that meet the or exceed the average physical dimensions of players in their positions these days: Galvin, Miller, Willet, Makasini (if he re-signs). We need to keep looking for the next Folau, Inglis, Tuqiri not the next Utai or Fitzhenry.
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I agree to a certain extent @balmain boy but we can't limit ourselves to just promoting or recruiting based on size & athleticism. But yes, we need to get the mix right in our squad.

We do need to identify those with the athletic traits suited to today's game - explosive speed, power through the line, aerial ability but also possess some other qualities like assertiveness, kicking, ball skills (passing, offloading), tackling technique.

The Broncos & Storm have done this very well!

As you mentioned, we do seem to have an over abundance of smaller middles & outside backs and I think we have started to take some steps to recruit what we lack although some speculative (Sam Fainu, Aimalalo, Lobb, Taotua brothers from Manly etc).

Given we have a definite need for speed & aerial ability in the backs; line-breaking, tackle-breaking in the forwards & players who play 100 miles per hour, I would make sure we continue to develop those that fit the profile ... here is my order of priority:

Onitoni Large
Haemasi Makasini
Solo Saukuru
Nav Willett
Jordan Miller
Heath Mason
Luke Laulilii
Chris Faagutu
Tony Sukkar
Lachlan Broederlow
Vaka Aho
M & M Taotua
Most of our Magpies HM forwards
 
Our squad is clearly the worst in the NRL, it’s a miracle we have won 2 games this season.
In addition to this, most of the young up and comers we have pinned our hopes on for the future are currently showing nothing in our lower grades.
High hopes for Talyn Da Silva and Heath Mason, some hope for Tony Sukkar, not much hope for the rest of them.
Could be a different story with the emerging Magpies Harold Mathews players, but even then it’s only really Onitoni Large and Heamasi Makasini who look highly likely to progress through the grades rapidly, as we know forwards take more time to physically develop and toughen up to play against men.
We need to recruit heavily and smartly.
If we don’t we will remain pinned to the bottom 4 for the foreseeable future.
 
BlackWhiteGold said:
Thanks @jrtiger would be very interested to hear more of your insights into our HM middles. There is PJ French & Ta'ai in the team as well who made rep sides last year.

I'm hopeful that Vaka Aho in Flegg has the qualities to progress a lot further. Herman is another given his impact in attack, others have questioned his fitness.
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Fui and Moors are your quintessential front row pairing. Fui is the workhorse who bends the line in attack and has the ability to constantly hurt attackers, whereas Moors is the big guy you turn to close to the line and can put a bellringer on to inspire his teammates. out of the two from what I've seen Fui is the better prospect, but both of them have a lot of upside.

Havea and Taai are both lock forwards but are different in the way they go about things. think of Taai as a bit like Isaah Yeo, and Havea as a more creative, less busy Cam Murray.

Taai has beautiful technique which is reflected in everything he does in attack and defence. the game comes naturally to him and he gives the side a lot of width while remaining square with the defensive line when they choose to go Lock-Half-Fullback. Havea I think has a bit of growing to do given how small he is (year young), but his short passing and deception is better than Taai's, but Taai is more well rounded which you would expect given he's got another 12 months on him.

PJ French is still getting used to using his size, whereas Moors is acutely aware of it. he's a tall frame and has some filling out to do, but I was impressed with his efforts in the times that I've seen him play.

you can probably tell by the description but I'm most bullish on Fui and Taai. the other three have upside but at this moment this is what I'm seeing. I'm hoping all of them deliver this weekend against Cronulla to secure a GF berth.
 
Vicious said:
Our squad is clearly the worst in the NRL, it’s a miracle we have won 2 games this season.
In addition to this, most of the young up and comers we have pinned our hopes on for the future are currently showing nothing in our lower grades.
High hopes for Talyn Da Silva and Heath Mason, some hope for Tony Sukkar, not much hope for the rest of them.
Could be a different story with the emerging Magpies Harold Mathews players, but even then it’s only really Onitoni Large and Heamasi Makasini who look highly likely to progress through the grades rapidly, as we know forwards take more time to physically develop and toughen up to play against men.
We need to recruit heavily and smartly.
If we don’t we will remain pinned to the bottom 4 for the foreseeable future.
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I don't think it's a miracle we've won two games. there is genuine quality in our current 17, with a number of serviceable players in Sione and Latu, Naden, To'a, Matamua and Kepaoa. it falls off after that. a few injuries and we will definitely struggle, but at full strength and with our heads in the game we are a decent side.

I think it's a massive disservice to Luke Laulili'i that you haven't mentioned him above. he's been brilliant in Cup dealing with RMC-standard halves. Miller is a huge project but he is talented, no question. Feledy is an NRL-calibre attacking player and while his defence needs considerable work, he is definitely one to watch.

you're right in regards to HM but there's every chance someone jumps out of the ground and takes their opportunity. very much a wait and see type scenario.

Richo's right in the sense that we've got a decent squad, we just need to recruit some quality in the outside backs and bolster our depth in the forwards. that will mean we have to make a few tough calls on some youngsters, but it's really only 2-3 players needed for the top 17 with an additional few as depth options. we do that and I believe we will have the right mix of quality, depth, leadership and youthful exuberance.
 
Vicious said:
Our squad is clearly the worst in the NRL, it’s a miracle we have won 2 games this season.
In addition to this, most of the young up and comers we have pinned our hopes on for the future are currently showing nothing in our lower grades.
High hopes for Talyn Da Silva and Heath Mason, some hope for Tony Sukkar, not much hope for the rest of them.
Could be a different story with the emerging Magpies Harold Mathews players, but even then it’s only really Onitoni Large and Heamasi Makasini who look highly likely to progress through the grades rapidly, as we know forwards take more time to physically develop and toughen up to play against men.
We need to recruit heavily and smartly.
If we don’t we will remain pinned to the bottom 4 for the foreseeable future.
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Well said
 
momo_amp_medo said:
Agree with this 100%.

Flanagan May be many things but he knows his footy.

He tweaked that roster and made sure that lack of talent is replace by size and aggression both in the forwards and the backs. He has great half in Hunt and an overall team that seems to be consistently up, motivated and well prepared for a battle ….. their whole team looks up this year ….. just like the 2024 buldogs.

The only thing that I’m puzzled about is how they can allow for Lomax to be let go. Time will only tell If that decision does not come back to bite them.
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Even someone like Francis Molo has stepped up a gear, he was pretty impressive in the opening salvos.

Personally I wonder if this might be short-lived for the Dragons, with some ordinary footballers being pushed to perform at a higher level. For example, realistically how long does Moses Suli play at a higher intensity before he reverts to his natural laziness?
 
jirskyr said:
What are those?
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I cannot believe many of our supporters still think it’s ok for an edge back rower to never ever make a line break, rarely if ever break a tackle or score a try, rarely if ever contribute to a line break or a try,
EVERY other NRL team has edge back rowers that do this regularly.
Last season everyone was blaming our halves, surely this season the excuses have run out,
Kepaoa for all his faults at least knows how to hit a hole, runs the ball with enough venom to break tackles and threaten to make line breaks.
If he doesn’t start and Papali’i to 13, then Benji is off his head.
 
Coastie_Tiger said:
Might be an unpopular opinion but if we could get an adequate trade i would move Ice on. From moment one when he signed with us he's be disinterested, we seemed to have the warriors version not the Parra one.
I know he makes a lot of tackles at times 48 yesterday someone quoted but he also has some horrendous misses or efforts highlighted in the Sua try there's quite a few of those ive seen him attempt or not attempt.
He rarely makes an impact in attack perhaps its the way we use him vs his Parra days, but i really think he doesn't give a toss about being here.
I think as soon as he's able he'll probably sign elsewhere anyway so we may as well try and get something in return for him the bloke is treading water here.
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I don't see a lack of effort at all - he's always present where the ball is, always attempting decent line speed. He just doesn't seem to pick his moments properly, like he's half a step behind the game every week.

So he'll pull off a really nice tackle early in the set, then find himself on the backfoot, then make a last-ditch grasping tackle late in the set. Or he'll be available in attack but he's not run a good line or he's looked up before contact and dropped it. His hands are not good, he needs really early ball or to run better lines (I have not seen Ice run decent lines ever for Tigers).

What I would say however is he does seem to have a better, possibly the best so far at our club, connection with Galvin. They tend to defend better together? Maybe I am mis-remembering but I recall Galvin and Ice being on the same side so far this season.
 
balmain boy said:
Yes, obviously all those are important too. But if you can get in a bigger, faster body you take that upgrade.

We're often not talking a couple of cms or kgs. Often our boys are giving up 15cms and 15kgs, plus they're not aggressive types. That's the problem. There's a reason most clubs can easily steam roll us in attack and defence. They're bigger and more aggressive.

If you can choose between big Tino or Tapine up front vs Joffa or Tumeth and Inglis at the back or Laurie I certainly know which players I'd target.

Over the last
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Im hearing what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but the examples you've used is more a sample of better players, rather than bigger players.

For example, I could say, would you rather Cam Murray at lock or big Matt Eisenhuth? Would you rather Reuben Cotter or Big Nelson at prop? And would you prefer Billy Slater or Big TrellMit at the back?

I like big and powerful too, but I prefer better to bigger.

Ultimately, as with anything, I think we need balance.
 
Vicious said:
What about tackle busts, line breaks, tries, line break assists, try assists !
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Throw em in there too. I was just providing some more appropriate metrics than simply stature.

Though, as I indicated this was for a forward, I doubt try assists, tries, line break assists or line breaks are at the top of the priority list.
 
BirchgroveTigers said:
Don’t get me wrong, we played very poor however I think we need to keep some perspective. It was a 12 point ball game that we were still in until the 60th odd minute. I’ve seen a lot worse from us over the past few years…
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I agree - so far 2024, when "bad" has not been as bad as previous years. I haven't seen the team drop its head yet; we are very willing in the first half and not giving up silly concentration points either side of half-time. The line speed is improved and the effort in defence is much better across 80 minutes.

What we haven't done yet is click with any attacking consistency. We seem to have an idea of what our best 17 might be but we've hardly had them on the park yet due to injury and suspension - concussions and suspensions have hurt us already this year.

So for example no shock at all that Galvin once we put Bud to the bench and concentrated on Galvin + Sezer, our form improved and we had 2 really good wins. Galvin gets suspended and we are back to being a bit lumpy. Bud should be able to play starting halves, and he's a good backup, but he just doesn't touch the ball enough for me nor structure a set. He comes and goes too much.

Sezer does what he's asked - he kicks pretty well most of the time, kicks goals, very dependable in defence. Even his odd runs have been well-timed.

But Galvin for me, the best thing so far with him starting is his involvement / work-rate. I like it when halves get their hands on the ball a lot, insert themselves into plays a lot, not just rely on the dummy half to roll through the first 3 tackles. So for example first 1-2 hitups. Then the half throws a wide early ball to a backrower, backing up for the offload. Then the half resets and sends the ball wide to the backs on the other side. Or he takes a run if he sees a gap. And then, after looking and probing and popping up all over the field, then you can sail it out to Sezer for the bomb.
 
jrtiger said:
Fui and Moors are your quintessential front row pairing. Fui is the workhorse who bends the line in attack and has the ability to constantly hurt attackers, whereas Moors is the big guy you turn to close to the line and can put a bellringer on to inspire his teammates. out of the two from what I've seen Fui is the better prospect, but both of them have a lot of upside.

Havea and Taai are both lock forwards but are different in the way they go about things. think of Taai as a bit like Isaah Yeo, and Havea as a more creative, less busy Cam Murray.

Taai has beautiful technique which is reflected in everything he does in attack and defence. the game comes naturally to him and he gives the side a lot of width while remaining square with the defensive line when they choose to go Lock-Half-Fullback. Havea I think has a bit of growing to do given how small he is (year young), but his short passing and deception is better than Taai's, but Taai is more well rounded which you would expect given he's got another 12 months on him.

PJ French is still getting used to using his size, whereas Moors is acutely aware of it. he's a tall frame and has some filling out to do, but I was impressed with his efforts in the times that I've seen him play.

you can probably tell by the description but I'm most bullish on Fui and Taai. the other three have upside but at this moment this is what I'm seeing. I'm hoping all of them deliver this weekend against Cronulla to secure a GF berth.
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Thanks @jrtiger arguably this Matts team is better than our premiership-winning team of 2 seasons ago. I love Isdale's control & direction too. Look forward to seeing them rip'n tear on Saturday.

The other not mentioned is Phoenix Godinet, stacks of ability too and hopefully we can keep him in league as he plays rah rah too.
 
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