Russian invasion of Ukraine

[PJ_]

I saw the Pope go into the Russian embassy to have ask for peace but didn't want to upset Russia too much as the Church wants a closer relationship with the Russian orthodox faction.
Smh...

 

[PJ_]

Everyone has become a 🐈‍⬛

 

[Tiger5150]

I find this silly especially considering Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was tickling every dictator gonads when he was in power. It was pathetic.

I don't think strong leadership works here. I don't think anyone suggesting strong leadership has any idea what they are dealing with.

Earl, the way you are turning this into a Biden/Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon binary clearly demonstrates that you have no idea what is going on.

Keeping peace is EVERYTHING about leadership. Decisions matter and have repurcussions. In 2014 Putin invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea. What did the US do? Nothing. O'Bama let them get away with it. These decisions add up to where we are today.

He has form with going "softly" on Russia

 

[earl]

It's not JUST Biden, the whole west has played its part.

This is the only part I agree with. I don't get the obsession with focusing on Biden. That is why I respond about conservatives because conservatives are pathetic at this point in time. Strong fiscal management, pro-human rights, small government and integrity should be the focus of conservatives. They've lost their way and become cheer squad supports of populist and other dictators. It's sad.

Now to your point. It's basically impossible to stand up to a dictator with nukes and an army in these situations. You have a choice - go to war or not. Talk is cheap.

Provide some clear ways in which this situation could be stopped. Provide some clear ways we can do something now. I don't have any answers.

 

[Tiger5150]

It's much more nuanced than this.

The Ukraine appear to want to be westernized. Putin (not all Russians) wants to have the world revert to a situation much more like the USSR.

With respect Earl, I cant get past your suggesting that its more "nuanced" and then give the absolutely least nuanced version of it.

Ukraine dont want to be "westernized", they want to be part of NATO, purely to prevent exactly what has happened.

Putin motives aren't related to wanting to reform the USSR (although I'm sure he would love to. Putin's stated motives are the corruption in Ukrainian Govt and the supposed persecution of Russian Ukrainians

 

[rihannafan1]

?

Thanks for the clear explanation. Would you be able to explain socialism to us?

 

[earl]

Earl, the way you are turning this into a Biden/Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon binary clearly demonstrates that you have no idea what is going on.

You said that not me. I'm definitely not. I'm just stating that the idea that this is all Bidens fault is hilarious. Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was tickling Putin and others balls. Seriously pathetic.

I don't think this should be about Biden at all. I don't think it should be about the US.

 

[earl]

With respect Earl, I cant get past your suggesting that its more "nuanced" and then give the absolutely least nuanced version of it.

Ukraine dont want to be "westernized", they want to be part of NATO, purely to prevent exactly what has happened.

Putin motives aren't related to wanting to reform the USSR (although I'm sure he would love to. Putin's stated motives are the corruption in Ukrainian Govt and the supposed persecution of Russian Ukrainians

I don't see any argument against what I'm stating.

 

[Nelson]

In the absence of that "new way", what words of hope, love, peace and brown rice would you have for the civilians in Ukraine? Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Kazhakstan?

You have (I think inadvertantly) pointed out the issue. "The West" make the mistake that the rest of the world want the same things that we do and have the same priorities as us, care about the same things. They dont. Whilst the West has distracted itself with meaningless things that we are only priviledged to waste our time about because of the hard work and blood spilled before us, the rest of the world....Russia, China, India, the Middle East dont give a rats and will push for their priorities.

In the West there is a strong "post imperialist" sentiment at the moment, with many cheering the end of US hegemony, but we want to be very careful about what we wish for. The World will not live in a vacuum and the loss of US hegemony will be replaced by something else. The US has done many disgraceful things but at the end of the day we all need to decide what global influence we want to live under and Im sure of what I'd choose.

If people don't aspire to ideals like peace then there will never be a new way and we will forever be mired in occasional war until some idiot manages to blow us all up. I trust enough in human ingenuity that they can come up with something.

I don't think the rest of the world wants the same things, I think people generally do not want war. I don't think it matters where they come from, they can see that there are alternatives to war and that's what they want. We are not tribes pitted against each other with a need to war for finite resources. I am well aware that other countries, through their leadership, might be (well, obviously are) prepared to engage in war, but they are not their people and nor are they typically an extension of the will of their people. They typically involve situations in which there are dangerous concentrations of unchecked power (like Putin).

Someone like Putin is acting out of self-interest, or the interests of a limited few. They want power, influence, money, legacy...the usual crap. So you target them. You don't take them out because that encourages jingoism in their population, but you take away the things they care about, like money and power. I doubt that's a perfect way but it's a start and something worth trying.

I don't revel in the decline of the US. Having it as a powerful democracy acted as a strong safeguard. But that is no longer our reality and I don't think there is any going back to it in the near future.

 

[tig_prmz]

UN needs to have much larger power.

 

[TrueTiger]

Whether or not he's a moderator is irrelevant to pointing out that @TrueTiger and yourself are the two worst 'contributors' to this site.

Leasing your minds/eyeballs to the troll farms and other purveyors of misinformation.

Ive been on the site since 2014 and have had many agreements and disagreements with my fellow forum members over those years,Ive never told any of them that they are the worst contributor on the forum...you have been here for 1 year and can judge people for their input because what I or they say doesnt suit your opinion... thats fine if it gives you the satisfaction you need...

 

[Tiger5150]

This is the only part I agree with. I don't get the obsession with focusing on Biden.

Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. (Joe to his friends) is the current President of the United States, the greatest military and economic superpower the earth has ever seen and the only power that has the potential to stop Russia in its tracks and by doing so save the lives of thousands of innocent Ukrainians.

Joe Biden is the current President of the United States who made it his first act as President to shut down the Keystone XL pipeline which would have made the US self sufficient for oil. Keystone XL would have delivered 900,000 barrels of oil per day. Instead, the US under the Biden administration imports 500-600,000 barrels of oil per day from Russia. Biden at the same time waived sanctions against the Russian company building the Nordstream pipeline from Russia to Germany.

Joe Biden is also the current President of the United States who, in the face of Russia amassing 170,000 troops and weaponry at the Ukrainian border, proudly announced that the US would not step in to militarily help Ukraine.

Joe Biden is also the current President of the United States who 3 weeks ago said it would be OK if Putin invaded and just took some parts of Ukraine.

That is why I respond about conservatives because conservatives are pathetic at this point in time. Strong fiscal management, pro-human rights, small government and integrity should be the focus of conservatives. They've lost their way and become cheer squad supports of populist and other dictators. It's sad.

what the hell are you talking about?

Now to your point. It's basically impossible to stand up to a dictator with nukes and an army in these situations. You have a choice - go to war or not. Talk is cheap.

Unless you have MORE nukes and a bigger, better, more technologically advanced army....kinda like Joe Biden has?

Provide some clear ways in which this situation could be stopped. Provide some clear ways we can do something now. I don't have any answers.

1. In 2014, the FIRST time Putin invaded Ukraine, impose meaningful sanctions that would cripple the Russian economy.
2. When Putin started to amass troops at the border, FLOOD Ukraine with US equipment (kinda like what they left in Afghanistan.
3. Immediately cut off RUSSIA from SWIFT.
4. Impose immediate sanctions on Russian oil and gas. NOW. Shut off the tap of oil from Russia to the US and wear the consequences on oil prices.
5. Immediately triple the military presence of US forces at all the neighbouring NATO borders and make a massive song and dance about it.
6. Fly US troops over Ukraine from NATO Countries whilst the Russians are parked at the border.

That would be a start

 

[Tiger5150]

Thanks for the clear explanation. Would you be able to explain socialism to us?

Well the most simple is the state ownership of all means of production and distribution, like in China. Are you implying China is not a communist system?

 

[Tiger5150]

You said that not me. I'm definitely not. I'm just stating that the idea that this is all Bidens fault is hilarious. Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was tickling Putin and others balls. Seriously pathetic.

I don't think this should be about Biden at all. I don't think it should be about the US.

What the hell does this have to do with Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon? He hasn't been in power for 15months.

You dont think that the US is relevant at all, when Russia invades Europe, immediately adjacent to NATO borders? Seriously Earl?

 

[Cobarcats]

It’s sadly like the the story of many people forced to flee the Russians.

Many, many people didn’t make it.
Including a good chunk of my family.

Russian tyrany and opression is something that’s engrained in us. Most peope laugh it off but I guess that’s changed in the last 24 hours. Fortunately (or unfortunately) my family have taught me their lived experience of their ruthlessness.

Pray for their safety and somehow a result of hope for their future and culture 🤜🤛

 

[Tiger5150]

UN needs to have much larger power.

The UN has zero power. They just failed to pass a resolution to condemn the invasion. Not any action or meaningful measures, just words. They couldnt even pass a resolution to say words.

It was blocked by Russia and China. India and the UAE abstained, couldnt bring themselves to say it.

Disgraceful and gutless.

 

[Tiger5150]

I don't see any argument against what I'm stating.

Its a bit more "nuanced" than what you are saying

 

[Magpie_Magic]

With respect Earl, I cant get past your suggesting that its more "nuanced" and then give the absolutely least nuanced version of it.

Ukraine dont want to be "westernized", they want to be part of NATO, purely to prevent exactly what has happened.

Putin motives aren't related to wanting to reform the USSR (although I'm sure he would love to. Putin's stated motives are the corruption in Ukrainian Govt and the supposed persecution of Russian Ukrainians

Why were they promised eventual membership of NATO when the west knew they were not in a position to guarantee their safety against a nuclear superpower on their border and knew they would be powerless to stop Russia lest they risk existential consequences?

That's goading. They should have told them to pursue a neutral path.

I have a feeling that a lot of the anger and demonisation directed at Putin from the west stems from a deep down embarrassment of their relative impototence which they new all along would be the case after encouraging the Ukrainians and now watching the casualties for which they are partly responsible for pushing the Ukrainians when they knew full well they would be powerless to help them.

 

[BZN]

Ah ok I don’t know a lot about that topic man. Doesn’t sound good

After a quick check of Google @trentrunciman I found somewhere between 4 million and 10 million native Ukranians were purposely starved to death by the Russian Govt in an officially recognised Genocide in the mid 1930's...just as bad as the Nazi's in the 2nd WW.
Anyone that chooses to believe anything that comes out of rahrah rasPutins mouth in the future had better think again.
Russia has produced a long line of rulers 'not' to be proud of.

 

[Tiger5150]

Why were they promised eventual membership of NATO when the west knew they were not in a position to guarantee their safety against a nuclear superpower on their border and knew they would be powerless to stop Russia lest they risk existential consequences?

That's goading. They should have told them to pursue a neutral path.

I have a feeling that a lot of the anger and demonisation directed at Putin from the west stems from a deep down embarrassment of their relative impototence which they new all along would be the case after encouraging the Ukrainians and now watching the casualties for which they are partly responsible for pushing the Ukrainians when they knew full well they would be powerless to help them.

Its actually worse than that. In 1993 when the Soviet Union disintegrated, Ukraine found itself the owner of the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons on the planet. They were convinced to hand them over to RUSSIA on their border based on the Budapest Memorandum in which Russia, US and UK all signed an agreement to protect Ukraine against aggression from neighbouring countries......

Ukraine have been hung out to dry.