Referendum 2023

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Mistymuzzle said:
because the other side only has to say one word to totally obfuscate the discussion........

That word?
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Don't be silly Misty... It's not the main reason,
but it is a big reason, that was my whole point.

Saying racism isn't a factor in this referendum
is tantamount to a lie and blissfully ignorant
 
Kaito said:
Don't be silly Misty... It's not the main reason,
but it is a big reason, that was my whole point.

Saying racism isn't a factor in this referendum
is tantamount to a lie and blissfully ignorant
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You have totally missed the point.

You said there is only one side of the discussion obfuscating and lying. I assume that you meant the No side of the discussion. I am merely (correctly) pointing out that the Yes side is doing as much if not more obfuscation of the discussion but all they need to do is say one word to totally obfuscate the discussion and they are doing it regularly. It is exactly the same game.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
You have totally missed the point.

You said there is only one side of the discussion obfuscating and lying. I assume that you meant the No side of the discussion. I am merely (correctly) pointing out that the Yes side is doing as much if not more obfuscation of the discussion but all they need to do is say one word to totally obfuscate the discussion and they are doing it regularly. It is exactly the same game.
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So, one side calling a faction of the other
side racist is racist in itself, and obfuscating
the discussion as a result? Ok, I got you lol
 
Kaito said:
So, one side calling a faction of the other
side racist is racist in itself, and obfuscating
the discussion as a result? Ok, I got you lol
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No. What the hell are you are you talking about? Im not saying anything is racist.

YOU are saying the no side is obfuscating the discussion by lying but the other side is not.
I am merely pointing out the the Yes side is doing a fantastic job of obfuscating the discussion by raising racism in the no argument.

It is exactly the same tactic.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
No. What the hell are you are you talking about? Im not saying anything is racist.

YOU are saying the no side is obfuscating the discussion by lying but the other side is not.
I am merely pointing out the the Yes side is doing a fantastic job of obfuscating the discussion by raising racism in the no argument.

It is exactly the same tactic.
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I think I got you now Misty. My apologies, I've
grouped what you said with previous posts and
went from there. Yes I agree, I think the far left
are calling everything & everyone that opposes
the Yes vote racist which is utterly idiotic.
It does obfuscate the discussion, definitely.
Having said that, I don't think that it's a lie to
claim some (not all) voters are racist neither.
 
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Kaito said:
I think I got you now Misty. My apologies, I've
grouped what you said with previous posts and
went from there. Yes I agree, I think the far left
are calling everything & everyone that opposes
the Yes vote racist which is utterly idiotic.
It does obfuscate the discussion, definitely.
Having said that, I don't think that it's a lie to
claim some (not all) voters are racist neither.
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Of course and its not a lie to say that some yes voters are communist race baiting grifters but it is hardly conducive to reasonable discussion or consideration of an important topic.

Its disingenuous to argue that one side of the argument is behaving better or obfuscating the discussion.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
Of course and its not a lie to say that some yes voters are communist race baiting grifters but it is hardly conducive to reasonable discussion or consideration of an important topic.

Its disingenuous to argue that one side of the argument is behaving better or obfuscating the discussion.
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Right on. My claim that one side was lying
and obfuscating was on the particular
topic of racism though. My original point!

We should probably leave it here 4 now Misty.
As it stands I think we agree on more than
we disagree which is always good haha
 
earl said:
I'm voting yes because I want to support Indigenous Australians who based on statistical data are not doing as well as the average Australian which to me is a terrible situation that we as Australians should all want to rectify.
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and The Voice will just miraculously fix all Indigenous problems, just like that!

hallelujah
 
Kaito said:
We have been debating the topic 4 days...
Avoiding the issue that racism plays in the
referendum isn't ingenuous. It's 1 or the big
reasons people are voting no. Avoiding that
point there and pretending it doesn't exist is
ignorant. It is not the main reason but is A
reason. The obfuscation & lies are coming
from one side only as far as I can see. You
don't have to agree and you probably won't,
but racism plays a bigger part in the voice
than you're prepared to admit - whether it's
closet racism, flat out racism or rooted racism.
You mentioned that racism has nothing to
do with the referendum for the vast majority
of voters and I'm inclined to agree. Doesn't
mean it's not there and hasn't been used to
exploit a large sum of voters though does it
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Please show me any evidence besides your own prejudices that back your claim up.
Then we’ll talk
 
Kaito said:
Yeah, okay mate...good one lmao
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You can’t do it can you?
It’s just too easy to toss that out there.
Fkn lazy and stupid.
People saying crap like that have no clue about the damage they are doing. All is good in your neighbourhood, who gives a shit about anyone else’s eh?
 
Tucker said:
You can’t do it can you?
It’s just too easy to toss that out there.
Fkn lazy and stupid.
People saying crap like that have no clue about the damage they are doing. All is good in your neighbourhood, who gives a shit about anyone else’s eh?
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You can't be serious...

You evidently haven't read my previous posts.

You want evidence that a number of no
voters are racist? Yeah, let's park it here.
 
Kaito said:
I think I got you now Misty. My apologies, I've
grouped what you said with previous posts and
went from there. Yes I agree, I think the far left
are calling everything & everyone that opposes
the Yes vote racist which is utterly idiotic.
It does obfuscate the discussion, definitely.
Having said that, I don't think that it's a lie to
claim some (not all) voters are racist neither.
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Great respectful debate, could easily get personal given the passion for the issues but well held together.

I find it very interesting that the sample of posters here is selected by the virtue of being West's Tigers supporters. Such a broad and varied demographic, and therefore possibly close to a random sample with regard to the the referendum (support for the underdog and continued commitment in the face of little success being a commonality).

Contributions from both sides seem about equal, maybe more yes supporters than national polling.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
Of course and its not a lie to say that some yes voters are communist race baiting grifters but it is hardly conducive to reasonable discussion or consideration of an important topic.

Its disingenuous to argue that one side of the argument is behaving better or obfuscating the discussion.
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I see racism and deception as a clear element of the no campaign. Some of it is very dirty.

But I also see class and (perceived) intellectual predujice etc on the yes side, and judging some with legitimate concerns as racist (which is a form of predujice in itself).

It seems that contributers on both sides, including myself, seem to see the other side as more culpable as we are influenced by our own positions.

This forum has worked hard to maintain civility at a better level than I am seeing in other media.
 
shiretiger said:
and The Voice will just miraculously fix all Indigenous problems, just like that!

hallelujah
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I'm not sure sarcasm adds to the value of the debate. I respect those like Earl who want to see change rather than nothing. It's a fair position to see the current proposal will be better than the status quo.

In addition to Earl's point I think rejection of what 80% of Aboriginal Australians want will set things backwards.
 
Kaito said:
You can't be serious...

You evidently haven't read my previous posts.

You want evidence that a number of no
voters are racist? Yeah, let's park it here.
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A number now? Keep backtracking and you’ll get to the right level.
Don’t get upset because you got called on it.
 
Lauren said:
Well this has been fun but it's time for me to bow out. Honestly, the increasing talks in the media is doing my head in already.
Thanks to all members who have/are taking part, must admit it's been a fascinating read and very very engaging. Glad the thread was created @Tucker
Please try to keep it respectful at all times and good luck everyone.

Just wanted to leave my final thoughts also. Sorry about the length but wanted to convey my message more concisely and leave nothing unsaid.

Beyond the economic challenges we face, it's important to emphasise that my support for this referendum aims to foster better relations in Australia. I am deeply convinced that this referendum is pivotal in recognising the historical and cultural importance of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. As such, I am voting YES in enthusiastic support of the proposal.

Overview of the key details:
- Amendment of the Australian Constitution: This proposal aims to amend the constitution.
- **Introduction of a new chapter:** It includes the introduction of a new chapter titled 'Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples.'
- Establishment of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice: A central element is the creation of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, which will represent Indigenous communities.
- Representation before Parliament and Executive Government: This Voice will present Indigenous interests to both.
- Parliament's authority: The Australian Parliament will have the power to legislate on the Voice's composition, functions, powers, and procedures.

Incorporating these changes into the constitution doesn't imply a negative shift or an unpredictable future. Instead, it represents a positive stride towards a more diverse and equitable Australia.
I firmly believe this referendum is not just a collection of facts; it's a unifying and crucial moment in Australian history. It embodies our commitment to recognising the multifaceted and integral cultures that make up our nation. By voting YES, we take a significant step toward healing historical injustices, bridging divides, and building a fairer Australia.

In conclusion, my resolute support for the Voice to Parliament proposal is grounded in ongoing discussions surrounding this critical issue. Despite any shortcomings in the campaign process, I remain unwavering in my commitment to the bigger picture. Engaging with others and gathering various opinions or viewpoints, on may subject matters, has enriched my understanding that only Indigenous people possess these unique experiences and perspectives. Recognition is paramount for a brighter future in Australia, as it contributes to healing past wounds and acknowledging historical injustices. Listening to their voices is an essential step toward achieving unity, justice, and a more inclusive society. This referendum is about forging the way to bridge the gap for Indigenous Australia, and I firmly believe it's a crucial step forward. I am voting YES to help build a more equitable and just future for all Australians.
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An amazing contribution, hopefully after a break you will be back.

Some have concerns about High Court challenges, it would be great to see your views on that issue.
 
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