Referendum 2023

[Mistymuzzle]

CMON we know why!

Government forms committee to work out the serious problems facing Aboriginal communities.
Committtee spends 2 years coming up with a Report.

That report says the same thing the last 20 reports have said.
Government of the day doesn't like what the committee says, Fires key people or disbands entire committee.

Malcolm Turnbull fired Tony Abbott's committee, who fired the committee before them.

I get that argument, I dont think its strong argument and has its own intrinsic risks, but I totally understand the argument, however I was responding to Earls post and thats not the argument he was making.

We need consistency. That is the argument from the "yes" vote. If the Aboriginal representatives are going to change in parliament it should be the Aboriginal people who choose that, not whatever political factional pimpleface blows in. Aboriginal people should decide who speeks for them.

Do Aboriginal people not vote? Dont Aboriginal people get the same representatives in Parliament that the rest of us get? Or are you saying the quiet part out loud and Aboriginal get twice the representatives in Parliament than the rest of the population and more representation in the executive than the rest of the population get?

Imagine being told that Lidia Thorpe/Ms Price/mr Mundine Speaks for you? Simple argument Aboriginal people should decide who speaks for them and not have a committee formed by politicians picking people they like.

If an Aboriginal person lives in Victoria, Lidia Thorpe does speak for them and she was elected by the people of Victoria. If the aboriginal person lives in the Northern Territory then Jacinta Price does speak for them and she was voted in by the people of the NT, 30% of which are indigenous.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I live in inner west Sydney. They have reeducation camps here if you're voting no.

Almost a good enough reason to vote no. Maoist struggle sessions will be next.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

The saddest part is that race and the ability to enforce based upon it, will remain in our constitution and it should be removed from that document.

Where in the Constitution does it refer to race?

 

[Tucker]

The closer you are to the person concerned, the better you will be able to work with them. The closer you are, the more you understand what they are going through, what will work and what won't. Politicians are stuck in Canberra, most don't live anywhere near Aboriginal communities. Yet they make decisions for those communities every damn day.

Like they do with the whole rest of the country?

Likewise politicians want to win their own local seat, many don't live in amongst different separate Aboriginal communities and don't/can't talk to the people their decisions effect. At least let the Aboriginal people have a say on the next stupid brainfart to come from Canberra.

One of my concerns is the incredible logistical task of the Voice committee being able to get out to these communities and have yarns.
I don’t think it is possible at all.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

You cant blame them. They have other commitments around the world.

 

[Tucker]

CMON we know why!

Government forms committee to work out the serious problems facing Aboriginal communities.
Committtee spends 2 years coming up with a Report.

How will the Voice differentiate from this?
Everytime the Government is forming a policy or bill, the Voice will be requested to make submissions to that detail. They are then required to go out into the community:



…and discuss it, forming recommendations to submit back to the government.
Unless they have a huge staff…not 10k, but closer to 50k…2 years may be generous.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Thats the thing. Not all Aboriginals are the same. They have different languages and culture. How can they be boxed in as 1?

 

[watersider]

I get that argument, I dont think its strong argument and has its own intrinsic risks, but I totally understand the argument, however I was responding to Earls post and thats not the argument he was making.

Do Aboriginal people not vote? Dont Aboriginal people get the same representatives in Parliament that the rest of us get? Or are you saying the quiet part out loud and Aboriginal get twice the representatives in Parliament than the rest of the population and more representation in the executive than the rest of the population get?


If an Aboriginal person lives in Victoria, Lidia Thorpe does speak for them and she was elected by the people of Victoria. If the aboriginal person lives in the Northern Territory then Jacinta Price does speak for them and she was voted in by the people of the NT, 30% of which are indigenous.

Advisory bodies are created to provide specific insight on a subject. Politicians don't know everything about everything so advisory bodies can offer expertise and assistance. The voice would be an advisory body on Indigenous issues. I hope this will lead to better policies for indigenous people.

Price, Burney, Thorpe represent their electorates but they also have responsibilities to their political party and must focus on broader issues for their community so they can't have a singular focus.

Given parliament has struggled to produce positive policies for indigenous people, whether it has Indigenous people or not, it's a good idea to try a different approach that gives more agency to Indigenous people.

 

[Tucker]

Thats the thing. Not all Aboriginals are the same. They have different languages and culture. How can they be boxed in as 1?

Can’t be done properly, therefor it will either be done halfarsed or not at all.
They won’t be asked Jack shit.

 

[Winston Churchill]

Thats the thing. Not all Aboriginals are the same. They have different languages and culture. How can they be boxed in as 1?

Shhhh, dont say the quiet part out loud.

Just vote yes because something something, repeat talking point you dont understand, me feels, virtue signal, something something.


Theyre all the same right?

Nothing like a tolerant lefty and their casual racism.

 

[Tucker]

Advisory bodies are created to provide specific insight on a subject. Politicians don't know everything about everything so advisory bodies can offer expertise and assistance. The voice would be an advisory body on Indigenous issues. I hope this will lead to better policies for indigenous people.

Price, Burney, Thorpe represent their electorates but they also have responsibilities to their political party and must focus on broader issues for their community so they can't have a singular focus.

Given parliament has struggled to produce positive policies for indigenous people, whether it has Indigenous people or not, it's a good idea to try a different approach that gives more agency to Indigenous people.

It’s just an empty promise unless they tell us how it will work.
It’s all well and good to say the Voice will go out into the areas that are never listened to, and hear them out but…how? How can these 24 members, spread out amongst all the states and territories as well as the TSI get this done?

 

[twentyforty]

Where in the Constitution does it refer to race?

Section 51. (xxvi.) The people of any race for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws:

 

[watersider]

It’s just an empty promise unless they tell us how it will work.
It’s all well and good to say the Voice will go out into the areas that are never listened to, and hear them out but…how? How can these 24 members, spread out amongst all the states and territories as well as the TSI get this done?

They've said that it will be determined by parliament. I know that's not going to win you over. The Langton-calma working group report suggests a local and regional voices body made up of people elected by communities which would feed into the national voice body. But that's just a proposal. I don't think reading the report would make you more likely to vote for the proposal. I'm guessing govt decided too much detail creates too much complication. But this is the most official overview of a model, I don't know whether this model would be accepted or not:

https://voice.gov.au/resources/indigenous-voice-co-design-process-final-report

This is why I agree with @Mistymuzzle earlier suggestion about legislating first, showing how it works and then allow people to vote. As it is, the fear and uncertainty about it is allowed to fester.

All that to me is just marketing though, to me the proposal is good and important and while I am cynical about parliamentary process, I still feel they will be able to create an effective model that will improve representation of Indigenous voices in decision making on Indigenous policies, and I think that'll be really good for our country.

I think it's a bit like the national corruption watchdog brought in under Labor. Morrison was critical of potential ramifications and hazards shooting down the proposal on the basis it would interfere with government, but I think we, the public, can see and desperately want our politicians accountable. We didn't know the full details of the proposal or how exactly it would work, but nobody trusts politicians so we accept this and take a leap. The same for me for the voice. I'm so jaded by seeing flip flopping policy and no improvements and politicians using Indigenous issues rather than addressing them. I know it's gushing idealism but I'd really be hopeful that a representative Indigenous body could do better for us.

 

[twentyforty]

It’s just an empty promise unless they tell us how it will work.
It’s all well and good to say the Voice will go out into the areas that are never listened to, and hear them out but…how? How can these 24 members, spread out amongst all the states and territories as well as the TSI get this done?

Try to keep up mate? It’s now 36 voices according to Prof Marcia Langton.
These politicians will need to find a way to stop Jacinta Price from asking for an enquiry and review of the 3,000 Aboriginal agencies acting as a gateway for the many $billions. The hearing aid program has been rolled out and while many are appreciative of the free hearing aids, Albo insists his people are still not listening.

 

[earl]

I know it's gushing idealism but I'd really be hopeful that a representative Indigenous body could do better for us.

It's not just this for me. It's about accountability. It's about setting up a system so that you can state well that decision was made on your input or stating why didn't you raise this issue earlier.

 

[twentyforty]

It's not just this for me. It's about accountability. It's about setting up a system so that you can state well that decision was made on your input or stating why didn't you raise this issue earlier.

Is it possible that the Aboriginal population simply isnt designed to allow an organised structure of communication? Do Aboriginals need to have a treaty and reconcilation with themselves first?

 

[TillLindemann]

It's not just this for me. It's about accountability. It's about setting up a system so that you can state well that decision was made on your input or stating why didn't you raise this issue earlier.

Nah, there won't be any accountability. Any poor decisions that don't work can just be blamed on good ol trusty 'systemic racism'.

 

[Tiger-ferret]

Is it possible that the Aboriginal population simply isnt designed to allow an organised structure of communication? Do Aboriginals need to have a treaty and reconcilation with themselves first?

This is an emphatic point. Often families within nations don’t get along let alone nations themselves. Resources get allocated disproportionately depending on your last name…doesn’t really fit the narrative.

 

[Tucker]

Is it possible that the Aboriginal population simply isnt designed to allow an organised structure of communication? Do Aboriginals need to have a treaty and reconcilation with themselves first?

Very possible, but that won’t suit the virtue signallers stating that 1 voice solves all problems.

 

[Tucker]

Try to keep up mate? It’s now 36 voices according to Prof Marcia Langton.
These politicians will need to find a way to stop Jacinta Price from asking for an enquiry and review of the 3,000 Aboriginal agencies acting as a gateway for the many $billions. The hearing aid program has been rolled out and while many are appreciative of the free hearing aids, Albo insists his people are still not listening.

Langdon makes it up as she goes along. Says whatever she thinks the Yes side need to hear.
I’m not even sure she is still alive?
Might be a “weekend at Bernie’s” thing going on there.