Most skilful player / GOAT debate

I think another great example of the skill of Benji was the way he developed his short kicking game later in his career. He was sometimes placing and shaping kicks that very few other players could execute. Like many other areas of his game the consistency wasn't great, but when they came off...
 
Mighty_Tiger said:
Benji hasn’t been living off a single pass though.
His step & pass style is what made him.

People forget easily his impact because as fans we remember the performances (more bad than good - especially the passes in the stands)

Benji however did things no one else did at the time or prior really let alone even really thought of - was he consistent heck no but he imprinted on the game like no one has in the modern era.

Being involved in junior footy I have never seen the kids of all shapes/sizes have a player imprint like he did before or after - often nearly every kid would do the step and try the flick passes which we now see the steps and flick passes often during the season.

He made a very big imprint on the game attacking wise despite his record with us.
Click to expand...

I didn’t say it was Benji lol!

Anyway before he had his epiphany that he wanted to be taken seriously again, he was frolicking around half nude on the telly and discussing his intimate relationships with chunks of rubber.

At his peak, you are correct, he was an absolutely extraordinary player and only the harshest heart and chronically deranged could resolve otherwise.

I dont know if he can coach. We will see and desperately hope he can!
 
Just on the Johns and Origin debate, it's worth noting that Joey had 2 periods where stupidity selection and bias meant he either played 2 positions, or played hooker.

Chris Anderson's push for Kimmorley was disgraceful and meant Johns had to play hooker. I rate Kimmorley, nothing against him, but Johns was robbed of the 7 spot.

There was also a time they would name Toovey at 7 with Johns at 9. Johns would defend in the middle making way too many tackles, then play half in attack with Toovey moving into dummy half. It really was just silly stuff.
 
The only notable event for Johns playing hooker was when Jamie Goddard used him as a human punching bag resulting in Johns needing nearly 30 stitches.
 
Jedi_Tiger said:
Joey started his rep career as a 9 he was that good he had to be in the team
Click to expand...
No. This is wrong.

His rep career began in 95. He was the halfback for the blues in that series where Fatty's spare parts team beat pretty much a Test standard team 3 zip.
In 96 he was removed from the 7 jumper in favour of Tooves who led the side to a 3-0 whitewash, collecting player of the series along the way.
In 97 he again played hooker with Tooves in the 7 and NSW won the series.
In 98 he took over the halfback role and lost the series 2-1.
In 99 he was the halfback and the series was drawn with QLD retaining the trophy...for those playing along at home, the only series wins he was apart of were when someone else was the halfback. He has had 2 seies losses and a draw as halfback himself.
In 2000 he came off the bench in games 2 and 3. Noddy directed the team to a 3-0 whitewash.
In 2001 he was injured and didnt play.
In 2002 he was halfback and delivered a drawn series, failing to secure the third game win on home soil. QLD retained the trophy.
In 2003 he finally cracked it for a series win with him in control. It was his 8th go at it....
In 2004 he was injured and didnt play. NSW won
In 2005 he produced his best performance, actually living up to the hype. He delivered games 2 and 3 for a series win. It was his last series.

All in all his NSW rep career spanned 1995-2005...which was NSW's most dominant period and during that time, he played 16 games as the halfback winning just 2 series at a 50% win record (7wins, 7 losses). That period also included 2 drawn series where QLD retained the trohpy. When he wasnt the halfback during this period, NSW had a record of 11 wins and 6 losses.

He represented Australia 25 times.
12 of those he was halfback with a 75% win record (9-3).
13 of those he was hooker with 100% win recored (13-0).

As for Newcastle:
He played 250 games with a win rate of 61.6%. Toovey had 286 games @58.4% as a comparrison.
The first of his premierships was 1997. He played 8 of the 22 club rounds + 3 finals games. He was good that year, but was he instrumental to that premiership? Additionally, it was a weakened comp.
2001 was his great year where he was the reason Newcastle won that comp.
Officially he had 15 seasons, however 93 (3 games), 2004 (3 games) and 2007 (2 games) really dont count. Therefore he played 12 seasons for 9 finals appearances. Good record.

I think he was a very good club level player. However he did not excell in rep and as a result, I think the shower of praise, award wise, he received for his efforts in clubland alone, makes him overated.
As an example of the over praise, I refer to 1999. That year he won every award you could win...Dally M half of the year, Dally M player of the year, Provan Summons Medal, RLW Player of the Year and the Golden Boot.
This was the year he delivered a 59% win rate for Newcastle, failed to secure the State of Origin series by drawing game 3 on home soil and played one test for Australia at hooker.

Very good, but not the GOAT.
 
Tucker said:
No. This is wrong.

His rep career began in 95. He was the halfback for the blues in that series where Fatty's spare parts team beat pretty much a Test standard team 3 zip.
In 96 he was removed from the 7 jumper in favour of Tooves who led the side to a 3-0 whitewash, collecting player of the series along the way.
In 97 he again played hooker with Tooves in the 7 and NSW won the series.
In 98 he took over the halfback role and lost the series 2-1.
In 99 he was the halfback and the series was drawn with QLD retaining the trophy...for those playing along at home, the only series wins he was apart of were when someone else was the halfback. He has had 2 seies losses and a draw as halfback himself.
In 2000 he came off the bench in games 2 and 3. Noddy directed the team to a 3-0 whitewash.
In 2001 he was injured and didnt play.
In 2002 he was halfback and delivered a drawn series, failing to secure the third game win on home soil. QLD retained the trophy.
In 2003 he finally cracked it for a series win with him in control. It was his 8th go at it....
In 2004 he was injured and didnt play. NSW won
In 2005 he produced his best performance, actually living up to the hype. He delivered games 2 and 3 for a series win. It was his last series.

All in all his NSW rep career spanned 1995-2005...which was NSW's most dominant period and during that time, he played 16 games as the halfback winning just 2 series at a 50% win record (7wins, 7 losses). That period also included 2 drawn series where QLD retained the trohpy. When he wasnt the halfback during this period, NSW had a record of 11 wins and 6 losses.

He represented Australia 25 times.
12 of those he was halfback with a 75% win record (9-3).
13 of those he was hooker with 100% win recored (13-0).

As for Newcastle:
He played 250 games with a win rate of 61.6%. Toovey had 286 games @58.4% as a comparrison.
The first of his premierships was 1997. He played 8 of the 22 club rounds + 3 finals games. He was good that year, but was he instrumental to that premiership? Additionally, it was a weakened comp.
2001 was his great year where he was the reason Newcastle won that comp.
Officially he had 15 seasons, however 93 (3 games), 2004 (3 games) and 2007 (2 games) really dont count. Therefore he played 12 seasons for 9 finals appearances. Good record.

I think he was a very good club level player. However he did not excell in rep and as a result, I think the shower of praise, award wise, he received for his efforts in clubland alone, makes him overated.
As an example of the over praise, I refer to 1999. That year he won every award you could win...Dally M half of the year, Dally M player of the year, Provan Summons Medal, RLW Player of the Year and the Golden Boot.
This was the year he delivered a 59% win rate for Newcastle, failed to secure the State of Origin series by drawing game 3 on home soil and played one test for Australia at hooker.

Very good, but not the GOAT.
Click to expand...
Take everything a biased QLDer says about Joey with a grain of salt.
 
Tucker said:
No. This is wrong.

His rep career began in 95. He was the halfback for the blues in that series where Fatty's spare parts team beat pretty much a Test standard team 3 zip.
In 96 he was removed from the 7 jumper in favour of Tooves who led the side to a 3-0 whitewash, collecting player of the series along the way.
In 97 he again played hooker with Tooves in the 7 and NSW won the series.
In 98 he took over the halfback role and lost the series 2-1.
In 99 he was the halfback and the series was drawn with QLD retaining the trophy...for those playing along at home, the only series wins he was apart of were when someone else was the halfback. He has had 2 seies losses and a draw as halfback himself.
In 2000 he came off the bench in games 2 and 3. Noddy directed the team to a 3-0 whitewash.
In 2001 he was injured and didnt play.
In 2002 he was halfback and delivered a drawn series, failing to secure the third game win on home soil. QLD retained the trophy.
In 2003 he finally cracked it for a series win with him in control. It was his 8th go at it....
In 2004 he was injured and didnt play. NSW won
In 2005 he produced his best performance, actually living up to the hype. He delivered games 2 and 3 for a series win. It was his last series.

All in all his NSW rep career spanned 1995-2005...which was NSW's most dominant period and during that time, he played 16 games as the halfback winning just 2 series at a 50% win record (7wins, 7 losses). That period also included 2 drawn series where QLD retained the trohpy. When he wasnt the halfback during this period, NSW had a record of 11 wins and 6 losses.

He represented Australia 25 times.
12 of those he was halfback with a 75% win record (9-3).
13 of those he was hooker with 100% win recored (13-0).

As for Newcastle:
He played 250 games with a win rate of 61.6%. Toovey had 286 games @58.4% as a comparrison.
The first of his premierships was 1997. He played 8 of the 22 club rounds + 3 finals games. He was good that year, but was he instrumental to that premiership? Additionally, it was a weakened comp.
2001 was his great year where he was the reason Newcastle won that comp.
Officially he had 15 seasons, however 93 (3 games), 2004 (3 games) and 2007 (2 games) really dont count. Therefore he played 12 seasons for 9 finals appearances. Good record.

I think he was a very good club level player. However he did not excell in rep and as a result, I think the shower of praise, award wise, he received for his efforts in clubland alone, makes him overated.
As an example of the over praise, I refer to 1999. That year he won every award you could win...Dally M half of the year, Dally M player of the year, Provan Summons Medal, RLW Player of the Year and the Golden Boot.
This was the year he delivered a 59% win rate for Newcastle, failed to secure the State of Origin series by drawing game 3 on home soil and played one test for Australia at hooker.

Very good, but not the GOAT.
Click to expand...


Toovey in no way shape or form "lead NSW to a whitewash" at halfback. Joey was still the half even though he wore the 9 and Toovey wore 7. I love Toovey, but he had a free ride defending on an edge then slotting into dummy half in attack nice and fresh. If you think Johns wasn't the halfback in the Toovey era then you didn't watch the games, you just went stat hunting.
 
Tucker said:
No. This is wrong.

His rep career began in 95. He was the halfback for the blues in that series where Fatty's spare parts team beat pretty much a Test standard team 3 zip.
In 96 he was removed from the 7 jumper in favour of Tooves who led the side to a 3-0 whitewash, collecting player of the series along the way.
In 97 he again played hooker with Tooves in the 7 and NSW won the series.
In 98 he took over the halfback role and lost the series 2-1.
In 99 he was the halfback and the series was drawn with QLD retaining the trophy...for those playing along at home, the only series wins he was apart of were when someone else was the halfback. He has had 2 seies losses and a draw as halfback himself.
In 2000 he came off the bench in games 2 and 3. Noddy directed the team to a 3-0 whitewash.
In 2001 he was injured and didnt play.
In 2002 he was halfback and delivered a drawn series, failing to secure the third game win on home soil. QLD retained the trophy.
In 2003 he finally cracked it for a series win with him in control. It was his 8th go at it....
In 2004 he was injured and didnt play. NSW won
In 2005 he produced his best performance, actually living up to the hype. He delivered games 2 and 3 for a series win. It was his last series.

All in all his NSW rep career spanned 1995-2005...which was NSW's most dominant period and during that time, he played 16 games as the halfback winning just 2 series at a 50% win record (7wins, 7 losses). That period also included 2 drawn series where QLD retained the trohpy. When he wasnt the halfback during this period, NSW had a record of 11 wins and 6 losses.

He represented Australia 25 times.
12 of those he was halfback with a 75% win record (9-3).
13 of those he was hooker with 100% win recored (13-0).

As for Newcastle:
He played 250 games with a win rate of 61.6%. Toovey had 286 games @58.4% as a comparrison.
The first of his premierships was 1997. He played 8 of the 22 club rounds + 3 finals games. He was good that year, but was he instrumental to that premiership? Additionally, it was a weakened comp.
2001 was his great year where he was the reason Newcastle won that comp.
Officially he had 15 seasons, however 93 (3 games), 2004 (3 games) and 2007 (2 games) really dont count. Therefore he played 12 seasons for 9 finals appearances. Good record.

I think he was a very good club level player. However he did not excell in rep and as a result, I think the shower of praise, award wise, he received for his efforts in clubland alone, makes him overated.
As an example of the over praise, I refer to 1999. That year he won every award you could win...Dally M half of the year, Dally M player of the year, Provan Summons Medal, RLW Player of the Year and the Golden Boot.
This was the year he delivered a 59% win rate for Newcastle, failed to secure the State of Origin series by drawing game 3 on home soil and played one test for Australia at hooker.

Very good, but not the GOAT.
Click to expand...
You can’t equate winning percentage with greatness in a 17 man sport, respectfully.

It’s purely objective based on the eye test and if everyone agreed life would be very boring.
 
I have a slight weigh in with the Joey and drugs debate.

Personally, he admitted use of prohibited substances and it's irrelevant whether they hindered or enhanced his performance. I've never seen him play a full game as he was a little bit before my time but surely there must have been a massive cover up to hide his use. I don't know what action can be taken now, but I would have a ** next to his name when greats are mentioned.
 
BAGNF05 said:
You can’t equate winning percentage with greatness in a 17 man sport, respectfully.

It’s purely objective based on the eye test and if everyone agreed life would be very boring.
Click to expand...
Picking an all time team to save my life I have Tommy at half every time, not a cokehead poser.

You couldn't even compare Johns' efforts in Origin with Thurston.

Overrated media golden boy not in the top 20 of all time half backs.
 
tig_prmz said:
I have a slight weigh in with the Joey and drugs debate.

Personally, he admitted use of prohibited substances and it's irrelevant whether they hindered or enhanced his performance. I've never seen him play a full game as he was a little bit before my time but surely there must have been a massive cover up to hide his use. I don't know what action can be taken now, but I would have a ** next to his name when greats are mentioned.
Click to expand...
There’d be a lot of ** in the phone book
 
Odessa said:
It begs the question was Benji Marshall the most skillful player of all time
Click to expand...

wrong way to think it.
Benji changed the game. His no look flick passes, quick playmaking, etc. made the game very lively.

Cameron Smith also changed the game, the way he at Hooker managed the speed of the game, controlled the ruck and the pace... Made the game a game of defense and tackling.

Smith, I can say was the best player of his type at Hooker.
Benji in 2005 you could argue was the best at his quick plays, insane stunts, etc. But he couldn't always pull the rabbit from the hat and after awhile his abilities got limited.

Someone like Thurston was more consistently skilled throughtout his career.
Cooper Cronk was more skilled with his game management.

Benji was the master of the flick pass and fast footy. I would leave it there.
 
crazycat said:
wrong way to think it.
Benji changed the game. His no look flick passes, quick playmaking, etc. made the game very lively.

Cameron Smith also changed the game, the way he at Hooker managed the speed of the game, controlled the ruck and the pace... Made the game a game of defense and tackling.

Smith, I can say was the best player of his type at Hooker.
Benji in 2005 you could argue was the best at his quick plays, insane stunts, etc. But he couldn't always pull the rabbit from the hat and after awhile his abilities got limited.

Someone like Thurston was more consistently skilled throughtout his career.
Cooper Cronk was more skilled with his game management.

Benji was the master of the flick pass and fast footy. I would leave it there.
Click to expand...
EDIT; **In my era**
Smith has to be in the conversation as best ever. As you say, his control over game/ruck speed was unrivalled.
But also his game awareness, and footy IQ were absurd. He so often played the refs to his advantage because he knew the game so well.

I hated him when he played because it was usually for the opposition team, but to look back on his career it was so impressive, especially since he did it all with the body of a middle aged accountant.

In saying that, when the game came down to the wire there was no one who worried me more than JT, his ability to come up with a game wining play was freakish.

Lastly, the best 'purple patch' of form I have ever witnessed was Tommy Turbo's 2021 Dally M year, that was just an unbelievable run he looked like a man amongst boys even at Origin level. Truly a spectacular year from him.
 
Last edited:
king_sirro said:
Toovey in no way shape or form "lead NSW to a whitewash" at halfback. Joey was still the half even though he wore the 9 and Toovey wore 7. I love Toovey, but he had a free ride defending on an edge then slotting into dummy half in attack nice and fresh. If you think Johns wasn't the halfback in the Toovey era then you didn't watch the games, you just went stat hunting.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point being made.
Try and keep up.
 
crazycat said:
wrong way to think it.
Benji changed the game. His no look flick passes, quick playmaking, etc. made the game very lively.

Cameron Smith also changed the game, the way he at Hooker managed the speed of the game, controlled the ruck and the pace... Made the game a game of defense and tackling.

Smith, I can say was the best player of his type at Hooker.
Benji in 2005 you could argue was the best at his quick plays, insane stunts, etc. But he couldn't always pull the rabbit from the hat and after awhile his abilities got limited.

Someone like Thurston was more consistently skilled throughtout his career.
Cooper Cronk was more skilled with his game management.

Benji was the master of the flick pass and fast footy. I would leave it there.
Click to expand...
Did Thurston have more skills then Benji no but Thurston was more consistent as a player
 
BAGNF05 said:
You can’t equate winning percentage with greatness in a 17 man sport, respectfully.

It’s purely objective based on the eye test and if everyone agreed life would be very boring.
Click to expand...
I’m responding to posters claiming he single handedly dragged all his teams to success.
The point I’m making is that his perceived greatness is overblown by the media and then carried on by sycophantic fans.
The GOAT dominates all 3 levels of footy. Joey does not meet this criteria.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Members online

Total: 185 (members: 17, guests: 168)
Forever online: Tigergran, Geo
Back
Top