Most skilful player / GOAT debate

[BAGNF05]

I don’t think Wally is the GOAT.
Cameron Smith is and Darren Lockyer is second.

Respectfully disagree. They were in far better systems and won more. But this all started as a discussion about the most skilful players and got mixed up somewhere as normally happens on a forum.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Respectfully disagree. They were in far better systems and won more. But this all started as a discussion about the most skilful players and got mixed up somewhere as normally happens on a forum.

Exactly

Andrew Johns is the GOAT and definetly the most skilled.

Hot take but IMO the second most skilled player I have seen (70's to present) was Ricky Stuart. He had a similar passing game with possibly a superior long pass to Johns and a massive boot and incredible kicking game. he has been such a tosser post career that people forget how good he was. Forced Langer out of a kangaroo squad when we needed a win.

 

[BAGNF05]

Exactly

Andrew Johns is the GOAT and definetly the most skilled.

Hot take but IMO the second most skilled player I have seen (70's to present) was Ricky Stuart. He had a similar passing game with possibly a superior long pass to Johns and a massive boot and incredible kicking game. he has been such a tosser post career that people forget how good he was. Forced Langer out of a kangaroo squad when we needed a win.

You’re probably not wrong but they played with those shitty old leather pills so the footage makes the game from that time look less skilful to me. Passes float too much, kicks bounce funny.etc.

 

[jirskyr]

It begs the question was Benji Marshall the most skillful player of all time

I think it's hard to say what just what "most skilful" means.

If you mean "most consistently flashy" player, then yes he really has no peer. Even someone like a Shaun Johnson, arguably Benji's closest comparison, or perhaps Kalyn Ponga, they don't have a catalogue like Benji, and even then their memorable plays are as much about pure athleticism as ball-playing skill.

Benji on the other hand was much more about technical brilliance rather than simply being very fast or very agile, although he had that in spades too. Benji is probably the most unpredictable player to also have had a long career.

The downfall of this argument for Benji is despite the amazing feats he achieved, he never really produced consecutive seasons of reliable football. I think that consistency and reliability is also a major part of being considered a "skilful" footballer. In hindsight we can all remember the highlight plays, but we also rarely made the finals with Benji in the halves (3 out of 7 "mostly complete" seasons, plus 4 seasons wrecked by injury).

Even now people, including myself, still say "good one Benji" if we are playing touch footy and someone throws a horrible speculator pass, i.e. the one that goes 4 rows back into the crowd on the full.

So for example my most admired non-Tigers players I ever saw - Andrew Johns, Lockyer, Cliff Lyons, Phil Blake, Inglis, Fittler, Cam Smith... all very skilful in their own way and most all of them far more successful (unfortunately) than Benji in their careers.

I think as time progresses we will continue to think of Benji with more and more rose-coloured glasses and those highlight reels will stick out more and more.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

You’re probably not wrong but they played with those shitty old leather pills so the footage makes the game from that time look less skilful to me. Passes float too much, kicks bounce funny.etc.

The old leather balls were much heavier and definitely didnt "float". A lot harder to hit a chest at 30m with a leather ball than now.

Stuart was an incredibly skillful player

 

[DUCK]

No Tedda Courtney was.
The things I saw him do while sitting on the Pratten Park hill with my grandkids were incredible.

🤣🤪🙃

 

[Tucker]

Respectfully disagree. They were in far better systems and won more. But this all started as a discussion about the most skilful players and got mixed up somewhere as normally happens on a forum.

Locky and Smith were every bit as skilful.
They were also better leaders of men.

 

[Tucker]

Don’t forget, Joey went to 2 World Cups and won both. He was our hooker.
Tooves was our halfback in the first one and Noddy steered us around in the second.
Both of these men kept Joey out of the Blues number 7 as well.
Don’t get me wrong, he was a very tough and crafty player. He is also over rated. The media loved him and they created his legacy more than he did.

 

[Snidest 0]

Don’t forget, Joey went to 2 World Cups and won both. He was our hooker.
Tooves was our halfback in the first one and Noddy steered us around in the second.
Both of these men kept Joey out of the Blues number 7 as well.
Don’t get me wrong, he was a very tough and crafty player. He is also over rated. The media loved him and they created his legacy more than he did.

Correct - and I agree he is overrated.

But for both NSW and Australia when Toovey was 7 - he actually primarily played dummy half in attack and halfback in defence with Joey playing first receiver.

their numbers/positions selected did not accurately reflect their on-field roles.

Similar to the Broncos GF run in 2006 when Karmichael Hunt was fullback - but Justin Hodges played there in defence with Hunt switching to the wing.

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

Joey started his rep career as a 9 he was that good he had to be in the team
As others have said he made those Newcastle players look like stars
The best player I have seen

 

[batboy]

The downfall of this argument for Benji is despite the amazing feats he achieved, he never really produced consecutive seasons of reliable football. I think that consistency and reliability is also a major part of being considered a "skilful" footballer. In hindsight we can all remember the highlight plays, but we also rarely made the finals with Benji in the halves (3 out of 7 "mostly complete" seasons, plus 4 seasons wrecked by injury).

A very real / fair assessment...
I feel that because we played Benjiball for so long, His inconsistency has been ingrained in the Tigers. It never mattered to him, Because of those times he could just beat anyone.. We always felt like we were in a game, except those ones where it was early evident we weren't there - and were blown away early.

Minute to minute you never knew what you were going to get...
The anxiety on getting a penalty, Because Benji wouldn't find touch
(So often, that a few of us started looking for a stat on it) Or his Goal Kicking would be dead on one minute, and the next kick would look like he hadn't done it before....

For every magic play, There was one (or more) that was just horrible...
Only the good plays remain in the memory of the masses though.

I think as time progresses we will continue to think of Benji with more and more rose-coloured glasses and those highlight reels will stick out more and more.

It's been that way for a very long time, Especially amongst Tigers fans...
Some so grateful he won us a comp that it's never mattered what he did since.

I will add, There's plenty of Halves in the game that could learn to pass off the man,
I'm shocked at how many halves these days can't throw a spiral ball....
Josh Reynolds used to drive me nuts!!

 

[BAGNF05]

Don’t forget, Joey went to 2 World Cups and won both. He was our hooker.
Tooves was our halfback in the first one and Noddy steered us around in the second.
Both of these men kept Joey out of the Blues number 7 as well.
Don’t get me wrong, he was a very tough and crafty player. He is also over rated. The media loved him and they created his legacy more than he did.

Carried a regional city to two unlikely premierships, his team was a basket case when he wasn’t able to go- the other blokes just played for rich clubs owned by the media and never once had to lift a poor side to victory . Club footy accolades are what players chase their whole careers, and that’s why it’s Joey all the way in my opinion. Locky and Cam were tough too, but they lived a charmed existence and were at cheating clubs. Cronk is in their category too, the teams they were in would win whether they played or not. Not so with Joey and Benj.

 

[BAGNF05]

You say carrying the Wests Tigers to 3 finals series in 7 (uninjured) seasons like it’s a negative. Then you realise no other human alive has done it even once.

 

[Tucker]

Carried a regional city to two unlikely premierships, his team was a basket case when he wasn’t able to go- the other blokes just played for rich clubs owned by the media and never once had to lift a poor side to victory . Club footy accolades are what players chase their whole careers, and that’s why it’s Joey all the way in my opinion. Locky and Cam were tough too, but they lived a charmed existence and were at cheating clubs. Cronk is in their category too, the teams they were in would win whether they played or not. Not so with Joey and Benj.

I can’t recall which year it was, but there was one Kangaroo tour where incumbent test stars fell like flies and weren’t available for selection.
Locky lead a makeshift side to England and starred, securing an unlikely series win against a stronger outfit.
Interesting you say Brisbane and Melbourne were cheating clubs. I remember a lot of rumours surrounding PED use in Newcastle during Joeys time.

 

[Bigscreentv]

I think it's hard to say what just what "most skilful" means.

If you mean "most consistently flashy" player, then yes he really has no peer. Even someone like a Shaun Johnson, arguably Benji's closest comparison, or perhaps Kalyn Ponga, they don't have a catalogue like Benji, and even then their memorable plays are as much about pure athleticism as ball-playing skill.

Benji on the other hand was much more about technical brilliance rather than simply being very fast or very agile, although he had that in spades too. Benji is probably the most unpredictable player to also have had a long career.

The downfall of this argument for Benji is despite the amazing feats he achieved, he never really produced consecutive seasons of reliable football. I think that consistency and reliability is also a major part of being considered a "skilful" footballer. In hindsight we can all remember the highlight plays, but we also rarely made the finals with Benji in the halves (3 out of 7 "mostly complete" seasons, plus 4 seasons wrecked by injury).

Even now people, including myself, still say "good one Benji" if we are playing touch footy and someone throws a horrible speculator pass, i.e. the one that goes 4 rows back into the crowd on the full.

So for example my most admired non-Tigers players I ever saw - Andrew Johns, Lockyer, Cliff Lyons, Phil Blake, Inglis, Fittler, Cam Smith... all very skilful in their own way and most all of them far more successful (unfortunately) than Benji in their careers.

I think as time progresses we will continue to think of Benji with more and more rose-coloured glasses and those highlight reels will stick out more and more.

I was a big Benji fan and imo he should have never left the club, however i think he wasn't as successful because he was always trying the impossible. Sometimes it came off, sometimes it didn't. It was never high-percentage football.

I remember there being frustrating times in games where we just needed a steady head and Benji would try a 3-man cut-out pass and put it in the 3rd row of the grandstand. Probably not what needed at the time, but then 5 mins later he'd do the same thing and pull it off. He had unbelievable belief in himself.

As he got older he got better at knowing when/when not to pull the trigger.

Most skillful player of all time? I'd say in terms of pulling off the undoable, yes. Was he the most consistent player? No. Was still great to have him. Remarkable to think he was only picked up by Keebra Park as he was on a music school trip from his NZ school and was asked to fill in and make up numbers in a trial game.

 

[Tucker]

The old leather balls were much heavier and definitely didnt "float". A lot harder to hit a chest at 30m with a leather ball than now.

Stuart was an incredibly skillful player

Ricky was a very very good halfback.
Watching him live, it really stood out how awesome his passes were. They were effortless, yet powerful, accurate and long. His footwork when running the ball was also sharp and his kicking pinpoint.

 

[Tucker]

Benji is right up there as the most skilful.
His kitbag was full. He could do it all….and some things better players couldn’t.
Whether that translated into wins is irrelevant. It’s his skill level that’s under discussion, not his ability to control games.

 

[Tiger Karen]

Benji is right up there as the most skilful.
His kitbag was full. He could do it all….and some things better players couldn’t.
Whether that translated into wins is irrelevant. It’s his skill level that’s under discussion, not his ability to control games.

Well you know my views on the topic.

That is to say, the most powerful and dominant player I’ve ever seen is Bobby Lindner.

And it takes skill to pose such an insurmountable threat to the opposition and suck the footy life out of them until they are an unrecognisable heaving mass of toxic sludge.

Skill kind sir, is not just “bears dancing on barrels.”

With the accompanying 20 years of living off a single pass!!

 

[LeichhardtTiger]

I can’t recall which year it was, but there was one Kangaroo tour where incumbent test stars fell like flies and weren’t available for selection.
Locky lead a makeshift side to England and starred, securing an unlikely series win against a stronger outfit.
Interesting you say Brisbane and Melbourne were cheating clubs. I remember a lot of rumours surrounding PED use in Newcastle during Joeys time.

Not a Johns fan. Slightly off-topic, but concerning Great Players - Was there a salary cap in 1990? Balmain played Australia in rd 3 1990 at the 8th Wonder. Despite that, the result will surprise.

That was a hell of a tough game. Plenty of GOATS on show vs some tradies from the Park. Mick Neil, so underrated.

My view is that there's no doubt Cam Smith's winning record & longevity singles him out for the GOAT but Brisbane back then had an excess of talent. No wonder Super League wanted to spread the love around (so long as it didn't affect Brisbane!)

 

[Garrry]

There's already a BENJI MK2 at the Storm played roughly the last few rounds 2023 at fullback had the skip and step, obviously grown up idolising BENJI, sorry his name escapes me, Bellamy will know exactly when to play him to ease into NRL, against low ranked teams