Player development our Achilles heel

[tony soprano]

Another thread on this ?

You a mod now ?

Wouldn't u like to know??

Wow so prestigious

 

[Demps]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

Coates marquee ...lol....are you serious ??

Best winger prospect since Yow Yeh

Coates and oates ....pass thanks

Coates, soon to be the best winger in the comp

Far from it at the moment

Raw but Ballamy will change that.
Will be a superstar soon enough.

 

[Lauren]

I've never personally felt the club's weakness is player development and find the annoying articles on our poor recruitment and retention, suggest the same.
It's why people feel strongly about seeing some of our best players succeed elsewhere while we as a team don't, as it means we're nothing better than a development team with an incapacity to advance as a team/club.
We all want this to change.
Agree with others that during the periods we'd changed our approach and started to target the fringe first graders from other clubs, the quality of the team also changed. We should've only ever focused on keeping core groups of our most talented juniors together to cultivate a stronger team identity, as now it also lacks some soul.
It's why having players like Nofo, Brooks, Doueihi and Seyfarth matters.
Funny thing is though that there's nothing really limiting us but ourselves and it's always felt this way. We're not less talented we just can't perform professionally at all times and are unable to change with the times as other clubs do.

 

[AJ1]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

 

[AJ1]

I've never personally felt the club's weakness is player development and find the annoying articles on our poor recruitment and retention, suggest the same.
It's why people feel strongly about seeing some of our best players succeed elsewhere while we as a team don't, as it means we're nothing better than a development team with an incapacity to advance as a team/club.
We all want this to change.
Agree with others that during the periods we'd changed our approach and started to target the fringe first graders from other clubs, the quality of the team also changed. We should've only ever focused on keeping core groups of our most talented juniors together to cultivate a stronger team identity, as now it also lacks some soul.
It's why having players like Nofo, Brooks, Doueihi and Seyfarth matters.
Funny thing is though that there's nothing really limiting us but ourselves and it's always felt this way. We're not less talented we just can't perform professionally at all times and are unable to change with the times as other clubs do.

As much as those articles are annoying, many of our player's wouldn't have left in the first place if they had every opportunity to grow and develop at our club. Our money is just as good as others and sometimes even better.
I agree we have the talent to match other clubs and stated as much, however the reason we don't perform professionally is we don't have the right development systems in place. Look at Nofo, Bellamy would have either coached his defensive weaknesses out of him by now or put a better defender outside him. 3 coaches and he is still a liability in defence.

 

[earl]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us and at Melbourne. Sironen was just a young talent and if he stayed with us would have gone to the same level. Sironen also isn't great. I think Nathan Brown was similar. We let some players go. Tedesco seemed to be able to develop to his potential here.

I'm not convinced that player development is our Achilles heel. I don't see any evidence that is the case.

 

[Alex Seyfarth's #1 Fan]

Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not established as "not first grade quality". The jury is still out. There's no way you can say at this time that they won't be good players. Cini has played TWO games. AJ looked good in the game he got injured. Hoffman has played one game and is 20 years old.

 

[tigger19]

You have bought up some pretty valid points here.Not many players have shown continuous improvement, Nofa and Luciano had good seasons last year but have now regressed, Brooks has been on the decline since Cleary left, Mikaele good in rookie season and only just starting to hit back (contract time though),
Douehi and Laurie will continue to improve because of their natural talent and competitiveness. What is worrying as well is the club bought in Badger to work with the team on rule changes/interpretations, the ill discipline continues and is worse this year. The club bought in Timana Tahu to work with James Roberts and the centre’s and we all know how that has worked out. What is really hurting the most is playing players out of their natural positions and swapping them about on the field. Maguire has a real love for doing this and I can’t see the benefit, in fact I will go as far as saying it’s detrimental. Talau and Kepaoa are centre’s, Kepaoa only saw one game so far at centre, Cini is a centre yet debuted at wing, now dropped and back playing FB in cup??Luciano and Garner have been swapped back and forth side to side, Twal only just starting to see time back in the front row, and Mbye well I will leave it their. The list goes on but it needs to be addressed. The other thing I’m not a fan of is the 1-2 game debuts for new guys like Madden,Hoffman,Cini and the likes. I believe it kills confidence.

 

[getagrip]

Another thread on this ?

Says the guy who makes a live thread for imaginary games during the Origin week

Should i be offended by this??

Cause if u r trying to piss me off it aint working bro

No, just implying you should be more respectful of other posters rather than shutting them down. Sure it may have been covered, so perhaps ignore next time?

Yes. Very simple solution.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us and at Melbourne. Sironen was just a young talent and if he stayed with us would have gone to the same level. Sironen also isn't great. I think Nathan Brown was similar. We let some players go. Tedesco seemed to be able to develop to his potential here.

I'm not convinced that player development is our Achilles heel. I don't see any evidence that is the case.

Also, Woods, Koroibete, Tuiaki, and before Lafranchi, Richards, Ellis...

 

[AJ1]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us and at Melbourne. Sironen was just a young talent and if he stayed with us would have gone to the same level. Sironen also isn't great. I think Nathan Brown was similar. We let some players go. Tedesco seemed to be able to develop to his potential here.

I'm not convinced that player development is our Achilles heel. I don't see any evidence that is the case.

Also, Woods, Koroibete, Tuiaki, and before Lafranchi, Richards, Ellis...

Look at who the coach was back then....

 

[AJ1]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us and at Melbourne. Sironen was just a young talent and if he stayed with us would have gone to the same level. Sironen also isn't great. I think Nathan Brown was similar. We let some players go. Tedesco seemed to be able to develop to his potential here.

I'm not convinced that player development is our Achilles heel. I don't see any evidence that is the case.

Fair points. I agree JAC and Grant were always going to be stars however you can't say we were that involved in their development as they didn't spend long enough in our system. They also came from external junior clubs.
Disagree on Sironen. He was way too inconsistent here. Many were happy to see him sign elsewhere, myself included, however he did grow at Manly and I would love him back in our colours. He would have been even better if he didn't suffer so many injuries.

 

[AJ1]

Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not established as "not first grade quality". The jury is still out. There's no way you can say at this time that they won't be good players. Cini has played TWO games. AJ looked good in the game he got injured. Hoffman has played one game and is 20 years old.

I agree it's too early to call. I was referencing the many on here (I've also been guilty of this) who have already made up their minds rather than giving them more time to develop. Unfortunately I don't have much confidence in turning them around in our current system, however I would give them a better chance at another club.

 

[AJ1]

I've never personally felt the club's weakness is player development and find the annoying articles on our poor recruitment and retention, suggest the same.
It's why people feel strongly about seeing some of our best players succeed elsewhere while we as a team don't, as it means we're nothing better than a development team with an incapacity to advance as a team/club.
We all want this to change.
Agree with others that during the periods we'd changed our approach and started to target the fringe first graders from other clubs, the quality of the team also changed. We should've only ever focused on keeping core groups of our most talented juniors together to cultivate a stronger team identity, as now it also lacks some soul.
It's why having players like Nofo, Brooks, Doueihi and Seyfarth matters.
Funny thing is though that there's nothing really limiting us but ourselves and it's always felt this way. We're not less talented we just can't perform professionally at all times and are unable to change with the times as other clubs do.

As much as those articles are annoying, many of our player's wouldn't have left in the first place if they had every opportunity to grow and develop at our club. Our money is just as good as others and sometimes even better.
I agree we have the talent to match other clubs and stated as much, however the reason we don't perform professionally is we don't have the right development systems in place. Look at Nofo, Bellamy would have either coached his defensive weaknesses out of him by now or put a better defender outside him. 3 coaches and he is still a liability in defence.

To test whether we're still effective or not though you'd have to use some of our more recent players to measure this, players such as Twal, Aloiai etc as most of our current team are from elsewhere and we're still some time away from knowing how Mikaele, Stefano, Talau, Laurie etc will go long term in the NRL.

Looking at the current players who also played for us in 2020, only AD, Seyfarth, and Mikaele have improved their game compared to last year.
Aloiai will be an interesting one from an external perspective as he left the club as one of our top 3 players in 2020, injuries have set him back this year, but he also struggled through injury with us.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us and at Melbourne. Sironen was just a young talent and if he stayed with us would have gone to the same level. Sironen also isn't great. I think Nathan Brown was similar. We let some players go. Tedesco seemed to be able to develop to his potential here.

I'm not convinced that player development is our Achilles heel. I don't see any evidence that is the case.

Fair points. I agree JAC and Grant were always going to be stars however you can't say we were that involved in their development as they didn't spend long enough in our system. They also came from external junior clubs.
Disagree on Sironen. He was way too inconsistent here. Many were happy to see him sign elsewhere, myself included, however he did grow at Manly and I would love him back in our colours. He would have been even better if he didn't suffer so many injuries.

He played to escape tackles (similarly like Moltzen v2.0), he was careful to pass the ball before anyone gets too close to tackle him!

 

[AJ1]

You have bought up some pretty valid points here.Not many players have shown continuous improvement, Nofa and Luciano had good seasons last year but have now regressed, Brooks has been on the decline since Cleary left, Mikaele good in rookie season and only just starting to hit back (contract time though),
Douehi and Laurie will continue to improve because of their natural talent and competitiveness. What is worrying as well is the club bought in Badger to work with the team on rule changes/interpretations, the ill discipline continues and is worse this year. The club bought in Timana Tahu to work with James Roberts and the centre’s and we all know how that has worked out. What is really hurting the most is playing players out of their natural positions and swapping them about on the field. Maguire has a real love for doing this and I can’t see the benefit, in fact I will go as far as saying it’s detrimental. Talau and Kepaoa are centre’s, Kepaoa only saw one game so far at centre, Cini is a centre yet debuted at wing, now dropped and back playing FB in cup??Luciano and Garner have been swapped back and forth side to side, Twal only just starting to see time back in the front row, and Mbye well I will leave it their. The list goes on but it needs to be addressed. The other thing I’m not a fan of is the 1-2 game debuts for new guys like Madden,Hoffman,Cini and the likes. I believe it kills confidence.

Agree with everything you said.
We seem to have the right ideas and recruit the right people in the right areas. However it doesn't seem to be translating into improvement

 

[Tiger5150]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

***My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us*** and at Melbourne.

Might be an unpopular take, but I never actually remember JAC looking that good here and I also dont remember much handwringing when he left (of course he was better than Rankin, but thats a coaching issue).

 

[earl]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

***My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us*** and at Melbourne.

Might be an unpopular take, but I never actually remember JAC looking that good here and I also dont remember much handwringing when he left (of course he was better than Rankin, but thats a coaching issue).

I remember when JAC left it was clear what a quality player he was. He was my youngest sons favorite player. He had speed to burn and was killing them. Same as Koro.

 

[Tiger5150]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

***My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us*** and at Melbourne.

Might be an unpopular take, but I never actually remember JAC looking that good here and I also dont remember much handwringing when he left (of course he was better than Rankin, but thats a coaching issue).

I remember when JAC left it was clear what a quality player he was. He was my youngest sons favorite player. He had speed to burn and was killing them. Same as Koro.

Certainly had the speed but I remember positional and defensive deficiencies (like most young players). Im not saying he was a bad player and he was clearly better than Rankin, Im just saying that IMO it wasnt clear how good he was going to be. I felt a lot worse about Koro leaving.

 

[earl]

Many would agree since Hartigan joined WT, our recruitment and salary cap management has seen a major improvement compared to previous seasons yet he we are again looking at another missed opportunity of playing finals football. The consensus is we lack the roster of other teams.....or do we?
We are all aware of the talent we've lost over the years whilst we seem to pay overs for plodders who we can't wait to get rid of. We are at both opposite ends of the spectrum.... a retirement club for the NRL and a development club for players who want to attract attention from other teams, lured away with the promise of more money, the chance to play finals footy or both.

Despite our past incompetence, we currently have a more rounded roster with a focus on developing players who excelled in their juniors. Though the elephant in the room for me is our inability to develop our players into the best possible version of themselves.

Looking at the 2021 roster the general observation is many wouldn't make the starting 17 of any NRL team. We've established: Talau, Hoffman, Cini, and AJ are not first grade quality. Garner, Nofo, Lucy, Stefano, Twal, and Blore either lack consistency or have obvious areas of their game requiring improvement. We've also established Packer, Tamou, Roberts, and Joey haven't replicated the form they once did for their previous clubs whilst Doueihi and Mybe have been shuffled around like a pair of deck chairs on the Titanic unable to nail down the one position. Finally, Luke Brooks has the most divided opinion regarding his ability however no one can argue he hasn't lived up to the expectations of being our #1 Playmaker.

That is a sad reflection of where we are as a club however did we get our recruitment wrong? Is Ikin right about our roster being poor?
Personally I feel it is less to do with the players and more to do with how the club are developing them.... how can so many players individually be underachieving? The club has failed our players. Their development is poor. Madge often talks about not having a winning culture at the club and thought Tamou would make a positive and changing impact to our pack however what else is the coaching team doing to make them better footballers? The club has responded to our poor start to the season by bringing Sheens and Kimmorley into the fold. This is hopefully the catalyst the players need however I hate to concede we are a long way off reaping the benefits.

Therefore whilst we struggle to recruit the top echelon of the NRL, even if we were able to sign the best available players I tend to think it would only give us minimum improvement any way. TPJ for instance can't inspire the Broncos from last, how will he improve our team?

Once we start seeing players becoming the best version of themselves only then we should look at recruiting the elite. However for now we have a lot of development work we need to address.

Again if we can't surround the juniors with 4 or 5 Top 50 players it won't matter

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course we will improve with 4 of the top 50 players however I feel our system would still let us down and we would underachieve. Titans picked up 2 of the best forwards available this year and are struggling, yet Storm who never sign marquee players (until Coates recently) dominate consistently.

I don't know. Do you have any proof that players at our club don't reach their maximum possible level compared to other clubs ?

Storm don't sign marquee players but they pick them up early. Do we have the same level of juniors or development players compared to the Storm ? Does Harry Grant prove anything ? Did JAC do well here or was he a dud ?

Sironen was cut by the club, he was massively inconsistent here however he went on to reach his potential at Manly. Nathan Brown, also cut, was an animal we couldn't contain. He worked a lot of that out of his game and grew into an Origin player at the Eels.

Agree Melbourne identify players very well, they also develop them better than any other club. Their players consistently play to their potential there yet struggle when they leave the system. ​
JAC played 9 games for us after leaving the Sharks. We underrated him until Storm took notice.
Harry Grant received first grade experience with us, thats about it. We didn't greatly develop his game. The panel on NRL 360 even joked about the lack of development he received at the WT.

I'm not trying to be difficult but to me this is not proof or close to it.

***My take is JAC and Grant were always going to be stars and performed great for us*** and at Melbourne.

Might be an unpopular take, but I never actually remember JAC looking that good here and I also dont remember much handwringing when he left (of course he was better than Rankin, but thats a coaching issue).

I remember when JAC left it was clear what a quality player he was. He was my youngest sons favorite player. He had speed to burn and was killing them. Same as Koro.


Certainly had the speed but I remember positional and defensive deficiencies (like most young players). Im not saying he was a bad player and he was clearly better than Rankin, Im just saying that IMO it wasnt clear how good he was going to be. I felt a lot worse about Koro leaving.

They both were poor defensively at times but the club were nuts for letting them go. Those are two players that have been elite for years. You shouldn't lose players like that to a team like Melbourne. Melbourne just saw undervalued players and pounced. That is how we need to recruit.