Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[stryker]

No it is not illegal to seek asylum….the way these particular individuals are going about it is. Whilst there is no doubt that a lot are genuine, there is also a percentage who are questionable. By them throwing away their paperwork, we have no idea who they are and what their intentions are. Our navy and customs officers are being used as water taxis, all the while prolonging the processing of those who have come through the correct channels and desperately need our help.

As I said, if you are in trouble, by all means apply for asylum. But adhere to the laws of this land and do it the right way....dont treat us as fools and try to sneak in the back door. Australians believe in a fair go and what we have been seeing for 5 years now is true refugees not being afforded this benefit. The illegal boats are run by criminals, are extremely dangerous for those making the voyage, cost us 100's of millions unnecessarily and to be frank are pissing off the nation.

 

[happy_tiger]

Everyone ,brace yourselves . 😱pen_mouth:

Julia has done another backflip :astonished:

Wasn't too long ago she said we won't be sending asylum seekers to Nauru

What , she's changed her mind and now wants to send them to Nauru

Please ,people of the Forum vote this imbecile out at the next election for the love of all things good and well

 

[Winnipeg]

Don't know where you live Winnipeg but there are hordes where I live- and they don't need to hide.

yeah? where is that?

do they give you trouble?

[by which I mean, do they hassle you or something, not asking if it troubles you that they even exist]

also, are you sure they are refugees and have not emigrated through other channels?

 

[cktiger]

Don't know where you live Winnipeg but there are hordes where I live- and they don't need to hide.

yeah? where is that?

do they give you trouble?

[by which I mean, do they hassle you or something, not asking if it troubles you that they even exist]

also, are you sure they are refugees and have not emigrated through other channels?

I live in the Kogarah /Rockdale area .
There are all types here - refugees , new immigrants ….. overseas students who never seem to go to any school .
Last year had 15 people (Indian o/s students) rent the 3 bedroom house next door.
Never saw one of them head to any learning institution.
They did however have tonnes of insulation laying around when that rort was running.
Then they all disappeared in one day.
You could also take a seat in a coffee shop or pub on the Princes Highway on a Friday and see how many people walk up to the mosque for prayer.
They all must have Friday as their flexi day. :unamused:
I'm not saying these people are troublemakers - but plenty of people deny their very existence .
I'm all for deserving refugees coming to our shores - but there are plenty hiding here that no one chases or seems to care about.
Another point is the process of deciding who is a 'real' refugee.
I was talking to a friend who emigrated from South Africa a few years ago (Cape coloured) who had to wait years to get here,even though both he and his wife had skills and money.
He was shocked when he got here to see some of the other people from South Africa who had arrived as so called refugees who had lost their papers in transit.
To put it mildly his description of these people ranged from thugs to murderers.
Welcome to Australia.

 

[Winnipeg]

No it is not illegal to seek asylum….the way these particular individuals are going about it is. Whilst there is no doubt that a lot are genuine, there is also a percentage who are questionable. By them throwing away their paperwork, we have no idea who they are and what their intentions are. Our navy and customs officers are being used as water taxis, all the while prolonging the processing of those who have come through the correct channels and desperately need our help.

As I said, if you are in trouble, by all means apply for asylum. But adhere to the laws of this land and do it the right way....dont treat us as fools and try to sneak in the back door. Australians believe in a fair go and what we have been seeing for 5 years now is true refugees not being afforded this benefit. The illegal boats are run by criminals, are extremely dangerous for those making the voyage, cost us 100's of millions unnecessarily and to be frank are pissing off the nation.

It's not illegal to seek asylum by boat under the UN Refugee Convention, you can seek asylum by any means of travel you wish.

according to the refugee council of Australia website, 85-90% of boat arrivals are found to be genuine refugees.

As for the Navy and Customs being used as water taxis, this will still occur to some degree under offshore processing. when they say it will 'stop the boats', they mean stop the boats arriving, not departing. The Navy will still be used to take asylum seekers to Nauru and Manus Island. There were still 1500 or more asylum seekers taken to Nauru under the Howard Govt.

The policy does not discourage dangerous voyages, the SIEV X was lost at sea under the Pacific Solution and almost 400 people drowned. This is why Labor is trying to engage transit countries like Malaysia and it has been recommended that the overall refugee intake be doubled, so that the need for a dangerous boat voyage is diminished.

But as I said it's not a huge concern for me, both sides of politics seem largely to be in agreement now so this should see the end of the issue (which is what Gillard's hoping I'm sure)

 

[happy_tiger]

Breaking news , Big business finally loses a battle

The ban against advertising on cigarette packaging has been upheld in court

So as of December 1 everyone will have the same khaki green coloured cigarettes packets with all these ugly pictures of the effects cigarettes have

 

[Winnipeg]

I live in the Kogarah /Rockdale area .
There are all types here - refugees , new immigrants ….. overseas students who never seem to go to any school .
Last year had 15 people (Indian o/s students) rent the 3 bedroom house next door.
Never saw one of them head to any learning institution.
They did however have tonnes of insulation laying around when that rort was running.
Then they all disappeared in one day.
You could also take a seat in a coffee shop or pub on the Princes Highway on a Friday and see how many people walk up to the mosque for prayer.
They all must have Friday as their flexi day. :unamused:
I'm not saying these people are troublemakers - but plenty of people deny their very existence .
I'm all for deserving refugees coming to our shores - but there are plenty hiding here that no one chases or seems to care about.
Another point is the process of deciding who is a 'real' refugee.
I was talking to a friend who emigrated from South Africa a few years ago (Cape coloured) who had to wait years to get here,even though both he and his wife had skills and money.
He was shocked when he got here to see some of the other people from South Africa who had arrived as so called refugees who had lost their papers in transit.
To put it mildly his description of these people ranged from thugs to murderers.
Welcome to Australia.

Without wanting to discount your story I don't see how it relates to offshore processing policy or boat arrivals.

I suppose it could be pointed out that while John Howard claimed to be keeping our borders strong by keeping boat people out, he also raised regular immigration numbers to unprecedented levels. Without any knowledge of specific cases, I think it's fair to say that only a small proportion of the people you've cited would be refugees, and most would have arrived through regular channels.
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I'm not sure how many if any boat arrivals are from South Africa, I think South Africa is a net importer of refugees (mostly from Zimbabwe)

 

[cktiger]

Winnipeg , you are missing the point.
Plenty of so called political refugees are only economic refugees claiming to be that .
If they arrive by boat and have no papers you have to take them at face value.
After they settle money often appears from nowhere.
Offshore processing will weed out most economic refugees because they won't want to sit in Nauru for 2 years with no guarantee of getting in anyway.
Plenty of other people arrive as tourists / students and disappear into our country - working for cash within their own communities , and in many cases never learning (or needing to learn) a word of English.
My reference about the South African 'refugees' was only to make the point of how simple it is to fool our government.
Once again , I'm all for bringing in people who can bring skill sets we need or who are genuinely in need.
People keep referring what's happening now to the days when boats arrived from Vietnam - it is a whole different kettle of fish now.

 

[Winnipeg]

Winnipeg , you are missing the point.
Plenty of so called political refugees are only economic refugees claiming to be that .
If they arrive by boat and have no papers you have to take them at face value.
After they settle money often appears from nowhere.
Offshore processing will weed out most economic refugees because they won't want to sit in Nauru for 2 years with no guarantee of getting in anyway.
Plenty of other people arrive as tourists / students and disappear into our country - working for cash within their own communities , and in many cases never learning (or needing to learn) a word of English.
My reference about the South African 'refugees' was only to make the point of how simple it is to fool our government.
Once again , I'm all for bringing in people who can bring skill sets we need or who are genuinely in need.
People keep referring what's happening now to the days when boats arrived from Vietnam - it is a whole different kettle of fish now.

define 'plenty'

again it sounds like you have a problem with immigration in general rather than asylum seekers arriving by boat, which is what my first post was relating to.

I only mention the Vietnamese people I know because a lot of people mistrust refugees, thinking that they are terrorists or are only coming here to get on welfare. I don't think that's been the case in the past and I doubt it will be that way in the future

seems an awful fuss is being made over this one little guy in red

edit - before someone points it out, with recent increases it's probably more like two red guys


 

[cktiger]

You fail to point out that according to your statistics the one (or two) guys in red are taking the place of the people in green truly deserving of humanitarian visas.
And it's pointless to compare what happens now to the Vietnamese boat people in the 70's.
The world is a smaller place and people aren't necessarily mistrustful of people of a different race or religion.
Time you got out in the real world and away from a bank of manufactured statistcs.
Here's a few good definitions on statistics…
_“A statistician can have his head in an oven and his feet in ice, and he will say that on the average he feels fine.”
"A statistician drowned while crossing a stream that was, on average, 6 inches deep."
"Most people use statistics the way a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than enlightenment."_
And the most important of them all....
**_"Statistics are no substitute for judgment."_**

 

[Winnipeg]

the people in red are not necessarily less deserving of asylum than the people in green are

What's manufactured about pointing out that the majority of the immigrants you see around Sydney probably didn't come here as refugees?

I do live in the real world thanks, no need for the personal attacks

 

[cktiger]

Didn't mean it as a personal attack Winnipeg.
Just saying you shouldn't only rely on statistics - and you were the one who said the only refugees you had ever met were from Vietnam .
To your point though…
The people in red ARE less deserving than the people in green because they are breaking the rules.
They have money to get out of their countries and buy a spot on a boat to jump the queue.
The people in green abide by the rules set by OUR country.
You might also like to know that people who legitimately have reason to emigrate (apart from humanitarian reasons) get held up because the immigration department uses its resources on the queue jumpers.

 

[stryker]

One thing I havent seen discussed on here that I was going to bring up last week was Gillards new policy re; smart meters. She claims they will be a successful addition to the green initiatives people seem obsessed with currently and made the bold statement that people can put a load of washing in the dryer, wait until offpeak times occur and then use them…....

ABSOLUTE BS!

Really stupid thing to say for many reasons for mine.
#1 It is pretty darned dangerous to have a dryer operating when you are not home.
#2 These trials were forced on the Victorians to a unanimous outcry of dissaproval. They have also been slammed overseas, mainly America where class action law suits are being drawn up as we speak.
#3 There is no uniform time for offpeak power supply in Australia.
#4 Most importantly, how on earth is installing a smart meter without the upgrading of the homes electrical system - with control wiring, timers and such being installed even possible?

I see another home insulation scheme coming....

 

[dermo]

Didn't mean it as a personal attack Winnipeg.
Just saying you shouldn't only rely on statistics - and you were the one who said the only refugees you had ever met were from Vietnam .
To your point though…
The people in red ARE less deserving than the people in green because they are breaking the rules.
They have money to get out of their countries and buy a spot on a boat to jump the queue.
The people in green abide by the rules set by OUR country.
You might also like to know that people who legitimately have reason to emigrate (apart from humanitarian reasons) get held up because the immigration department uses its resources on the queue jumpers.

I think we should judge peoples deserving of entry to our country on the reasons they left their own country not on how they got here IMO. And perhaps if we increased our intake of recognised refugees then people would feel more inclined to take that route rather than go by boat

 

[Yossarian]

Didn't mean it as a personal attack Winnipeg.
Just saying you shouldn't only rely on statistics - and you were the one who said the only refugees you had ever met were from Vietnam .
To your point though…
The people in red ARE less deserving than the people in green because they are breaking the rules.
They have money to get out of their countries and buy a spot on a boat to jump the queue.
The people in green abide by the rules set by OUR country.
You might also like to know that people who legitimately have reason to emigrate (apart from humanitarian reasons) get held up because the immigration department uses its resources on the queue jumpers.

Irregular Maritime Arrivals are a small percentage of asylum seekers. As for "breaking rules" consider these points:

The vast majority of protection visa applicant are already onshore at the time they make their application. Does this mean they are "breaking the rules" when they arrive on a student or tourist visa?

There are no signatories to the UN treaties on refugees between the Middle East and Australia that are fulfilling their obligations to provide asylum.

There is little to no opportunity for Protection Visa applicants to apply for protection in their own countries or along their way. DIAC doesn't staff branch offices in Kabul or Tehran…

Seeking asylum in Australia does not contravene Australian law. The method of arrival does not contravene Australian law.

DIAC's need to process IMA applications has little to no bearing on its ability to do its other work.

 

[cktiger]

Didn't mean it as a personal attack Winnipeg.
Just saying you shouldn't only rely on statistics - and you were the one who said the only refugees you had ever met were from Vietnam .
To your point though…
The people in red ARE less deserving than the people in green because they are breaking the rules.
They have money to get out of their countries and buy a spot on a boat to jump the queue.
The people in green abide by the rules set by OUR country.
You might also like to know that people who legitimately have reason to emigrate (apart from humanitarian reasons) get held up because the immigration department uses its resources on the queue jumpers.

Irregular Maritime Arrivals are a small percentage of asylum seekers. As for "breaking rules" consider these points:

The vast majority of protection visa applicant are already onshore at the time they make their application. Does this mean they are "breaking the rules" when they arrive on a student or tourist visa?

There are no signatories to the UN treaties on refugees between the Middle East and Australia that are fulfilling their obligations to provide asylum.

There is little to no opportunity for Protection Visa applicants to apply for protection in their own countries or along their way. DIAC doesn't staff branch offices in Kabul or Tehran…

Seeking asylum in Australia does not contravene Australian law. The method of arrival does not contravene Australian law.
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DIAC's need to process IMA applications has little to no bearing on its ability to do its other work.

To answer a few of your points , Yoss….
Yes I do think that people here on student/ visitor visas who the apply for protection visas are breaking the rules.
If they really needed protection in their own country it's unlikely they would have been granted a visa to get out in the first place.
You're right that it's not illegal to seek asylum - but it is illegal to smuggle people into this country.
As soon as these 'boat people' pay the people smugglers they have voluntarily agreed to be smuggled into our country- thus breaking our laws.
All the people sitting in refugee camps doing the right thing and waiting for their turn have got sob stories too.
To be honest I would put them in front of people arriving illegally every day of the week.
As for the Immigration Department not being hamstrung by all this extra work ... it's not what they tell me.
Have you ever tried to get someone to stay here?

 

[Yossarian]

Actually it is not illegal to pay someone to "smuggle" you into this country. Again, people arriving by boat are not doing anything illegal. Keep in mind that the majority of IMAs are now being picked up outside of Australian waters.

I'm not denying people in refugee camps aren't potentially worse off but there are no refugee camps in most of the places these people are from (e.g. Afghanistan, Iran) where someone can apply for asylum. Personally I think the situation sucks for most if not nearly all these people. The experiences these people have had are absolutely horrific - it's not hard to see why you'd do whatever it took to reach somewhere where you were safe from harassment.

I work in the CPS and I deal with DIAC all the time. I know for a fact how much of their work is dedicated to IMAs. It is a very small percentage compared to student visas, family reunions, tourist visas etc. It consumes all or most of the time of some DIAC staff, it does not consume a majority of the total manpower of DIAC.

 

[cktiger]

Actually it is not illegal to pay someone to "smuggle" you into this country. Again, people arriving by boat are not doing anything illegal. Keep in mind that the majority of IMAs are now being picked up outside of Australian waters.

I'm not denying people in refugee camps aren't potentially worse off but there are no refugee camps in most of the places these people are from (e.g. Afghanistan, Iran) where someone can apply for asylum. Personally I think the situation sucks for most if not nearly all these people. The experiences these people have had are absolutely horrific - it's not hard to see why you'd do whatever it took to reach somewhere where you were safe from harassment.

I work in the CPS and I deal with DIAC all the time. I know for a fact how much of their work is dedicated to IMAs. It is a very small percentage compared to student visas, family reunions, tourist visas etc. It consumes all or most of the time of some DIAC staff, it does not consume a majority of the total manpower of DIAC.

Unfortunately the Australian Government and Federal Police don't agree with you about paying someone to smuggle you in as being illegal.
They are paying someone to help them break the law.
This is people smuggling - not people trafficking.
I agree that there are countless people caught in poverty or suffering political or religious persecution who deserve help but you can't just open the floodgates - there have to be set guidelines and rules.

 

[Yossarian]

When has the AFP ever prosecuted someone for paying someone to provide boat passage to an asylum seeker?

In any case read the legislation… It is an offence to bring **another** person into Australia. They aren't helping them break a law they are, if anything, the recipients of an illegal service.

 

[dermo]

When has the AFP ever prosecuted someone for paying someone to provide boat passage to an asylum seeker?

In any case read the legislation… It is an offence to bring **another** person into Australia. They aren't helping them break a law they are, if anything, the recipients of an illegal service.

Im not a lawyer but isn't knowingly receiving and illegal service an offense in most cases? I don't judge them for doing so or think it a bad offence but i would still constitute it an offense all the same