Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Papacito]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

 

[TillLindemann]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I'll fess up to giving you a down vote. Being paid reparations for something that didn't happen to you, by someone that didn't do it, is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

It is quite a fashionable idea in America at the moment, but dumb ideas becoming fashionable in America is not unusual.

 

[Papacito]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I'll fess up to giving you a down vote. Being paid reparations for something that didn't happen to you, by someone that didn't do it, is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

It is quite a fashionable idea in America at the moment, but dumb ideas becoming fashionable in America is not unusual.

I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. I think most Aussies currently feel the same way.

I prefaced it with the eligibility bit because clearly $1 million to every man, woman and child probably isn't suitable.

At the very least, there are plenty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people alive that deserve pretty serious compensation for not being citizens or being allowed to vote.

 

[Nelson]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

It’s an awful idea that does nothing to advance their cause and just makes her sound greedy.

 

[TillLindemann]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

For 99.99% of history, 99.99% of people endured horrible lives by today's standards.
My Scottish ancestors had their land stolen from them under the highland clearances, generations of them were treated like animals. They were essentially booted out of their own country, and once in Australia they were forced to give up their language.
My English ancestors fared no better - they also lost their land in the Enclosure Acts and many were forced into factories so horrible they forever earned a name as "Dark Satanic Mills".
My Irish ancestors also lost their land, their food, and again in Australia were repressed based on their language and religion.

Indigenous Australians also suffered terribly in the last few centuries.

But there is not the money in the world, and never will be, to pay reparations to present-day people for historical wrongs to their ancestors.

 

[TillLindemann]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I'll fess up to giving you a down vote. Being paid reparations for something that didn't happen to you, by someone that didn't do it, is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

It is quite a fashionable idea in America at the moment, but dumb ideas becoming fashionable in America is not unusual.

I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. I think most Aussies currently feel the same way.

I prefaced it with the eligibility bit because clearly $1 million to every man, woman and child probably isn't suitable.

At the very least, there are plenty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people alive that deserve pretty serious compensation for not being citizens or being allowed to vote.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound so harsh. Outside the box ideas can often be circuit breakers. I am fully on board with any program that will make a meaningful impact to address current issues facing indigenous people - be it more money into education, health, employment opportunities. And we should do as much as we can to celebrate and preserve indigenous culture, not as a museum exhibit, but as an ancient but still living culture/s.

I just think trying to fix historical grievances is doomed to fail. Rather than spending money to make people feel better about what happened to their ancestors 200 years ago, we should be spending money to make people feel better about what their future descendants will be able to do (that sounds like a lame marketing slogan).

 

[Papacito]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I'll fess up to giving you a down vote. Being paid reparations for something that didn't happen to you, by someone that didn't do it, is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

It is quite a fashionable idea in America at the moment, but dumb ideas becoming fashionable in America is not unusual.

I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. I think most Aussies currently feel the same way.

I prefaced it with the eligibility bit because clearly $1 million to every man, woman and child probably isn't suitable.

At the very least, there are plenty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people alive that deserve pretty serious compensation for not being citizens or being allowed to vote.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound so harsh. Outside the box ideas can often be circuit breakers. I am fully on board with any program that will make a meaningful impact to address current issues facing indigenous people - be it more money into education, health, employment opportunities. And we should do as much as we can to celebrate and preserve indigenous culture, not as a museum exhibit, but as an ancient but still living culture/s.

I just think trying to fix historical grievances is doomed to fail. Rather than spending money to make people feel better about what happened to their ancestors 200 years ago, we should be spending money to make people feel better about what their future descendants will be able to do (that sounds like a lame marketing slogan).

No worries mate, I'm not precious about people telling me they think I'm wrong.

My people also suffered persecution through recent history and weren't compensated but by the same token, I don't think that's a strong rationale for not drawing a line in the sand and compensating some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

The fact is that a massive number of people still alive lived through denial of basic human rights like being recognised as a citizen or being able to vote.

 

[Tiger5150]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

Statements like hers reinforces my opinion regarding Treaty, that it can only follow a true genuine reconciliation. By genuine I mean recognition that reconciliation requires bipartisan conciliation and we are YEARS away from that. Non Indigenous Australia has a long way to go to change opinions, culture and the last systemic impediments. When that is done, IMO then it will also take a step towards reconciliation on the part of indigenous Australians. Until we are at this stage, IMO a Treaty is not a true expression of reconcilation.

I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I am strongly against reparations for a few reasons...

1. Like you said, eligibility. I know a family, all naturally blond, fair skin, they cant point to an indigenous ancestor, but brag that they always tick the A/TSI box. You start offering $1M each, there will be a lot of boxes ticked.

2. I think it runs the risk of causing greater division. There will be plenty of people with the mindset that it didnt happen to this generation, I didnt do it, why should I pay. Plenty of these people may have their own struggles financially or socially and its pretty fertile ground for division. One third of our population werent even born here. What is the logic behind them paying?

3. I dont think it will help. It wont be $1M each. It would probably end up in the tens of thousands each if it happened and what would it actually change?

If I was made king of this joint, I would create a commission into the systemic issues that are stopping improvement in the "Closing the Gap REport" each year. What systemic impediments do indigenous people face such that they arent on the same footing as non indigenous people? Then I would make a big song and dance about reparations being taken off the table and instead spend that money (say $1B) on infrastructure and systemic change to address these issues. Might be schools for indigenous, hospitals anything. Money could be better spent than reparation handouts.

 

[Tiger5150]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

For 99.99% of history, 99.99% of people endured horrible lives by today's standards.
My Scottish ancestors had their land stolen from them under the highland clearances, generations of them were treated like animals. They were essentially booted out of their own country, and once in Australia they were forced to give up their language.
My English ancestors fared no better - they also lost their land in the Enclosure Acts and many were forced into factories so horrible they forever earned a name as "Dark Satanic Mills".
My Irish ancestors also lost their land, their food, and again in Australia were repressed based on their language and religion.

Indigenous Australians also suffered terribly in the last few centuries.

But there is not the money in the world, and never will be, to pay reparations to present-day people for historical wrongs to their ancestors.

This is a great point and adds perspective. My partner is Hungarian and the history of the oppression of her nation literally goes back almost a thousand years with only brief moments of freedom in between. Like the majority of the world today, NOW, TODAY AND TOMORROW are those moments of freedom.

It also brings into focus for me a very uncomfortable viewpoint that I am pretty nervous to raise here but will anyway to see if it generates any interesting discussion. I dont claim to be right about this, its just a thought exercise and I welcome corrections.

Pre Jan 1788, Australia was inhabited solely by our indigenous people. Over 10's of thousands of years they have moved over the continent, originally probably walking in from ancient land bridges and probably some limited contact and interbreeding with northern islanders and neoghbours. Over that time the aboriginal people we are told formed over 500 different nations within the continent.

So in Sydney, pre-Jan 1788 we had the Cadigal nation, next to Darugh, next to Guringai etc etc. They all had their own territories and areas that were for their clan.

My thought experiment is this.....what kept that part of the continent Cadigal and this other part Darugh? Why and how were Darugh excluded from Cadigal areas? I can only make the strong assumption that these nations were kept separate at the end of a club or spear (no different to ancient Europe for that matter). The next step in this thought experiment then is, arent the British just another tribe with better pointy sticks?

Would it have been more palatable if they were indonesian or PNG?

Ok, now Ive put that down, let me stand back and run away.

 

[Papacito]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

Statements like hers reinforces my opinion regarding Treaty, that it can only follow a true genuine reconciliation. By genuine I mean recognition that reconciliation requires bipartisan conciliation and we are YEARS away from that. Non Indigenous Australia has a long way to go to change opinions, culture and the last systemic impediments. When that is done, IMO then it will also take a step towards reconciliation on the part of indigenous Australians. Until we are at this stage, IMO a Treaty is not a true expression of reconcilation.

I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I am strongly against reparations for a few reasons...

1. Like you said, eligibility. I know a family, all naturally blond, fair skin, they cant point to an indigenous ancestor, but brag that they always tick the A/TSI box. You start offering $1M each, there will be a lot of boxes ticked.

2. I think it runs the risk of causing greater division. There will be plenty of people with the mindset that it didnt happen to this generation, I didnt do it, why should I pay. Plenty of these people may have their own struggles financially or socially and its pretty fertile ground for division. One third of our population werent even born here. What is the logic behind them paying?

3. I dont think it will help. It wont be $1M each. It would probably end up in the tens of thousands each if it happened and what would it actually change?

If I was made king of this joint, I would create a commission into the systemic issues that are stopping improvement in the "Closing the Gap REport" each year. What systemic impediments do indigenous people face such that they arent on the same footing as non indigenous people?

You make some really good points.

I'd point out that New Zealand got it right from the start and had the Treaty of Waitangi as a legally binding document separate from reconciliation.

As Aussies, we really only have the Mabo ruling, which happened close to 30 years ago. We haven't made much meaningful legislative progress since.

Heck, even our PM gets his knickers in a knot over something as tiny as changing Australia Day.

Reparations would definitely cause some degree of division and jealousy (like the Mabo ruling and Land Rights laws did), because almost everyone could do with some extra money (or real estate during the Mabo days).

Although I reckon most people agree that emotions like jealousy shouldn't guide our law.

I have no doubt that $1 million would be appropriate and would make a massive difference to a battler that was born in a remote community, wasn't a citizen for a lot of their life, hasn't had much of a chance to participate in modern Australian society and might not even have working plumbing.

I suspect you probably know from your wording (but I'll point it out for the benefit of anyone reading his thread), the criteria for Aboriginality has nothing to do with the colour of your hair or skin.

 

[Papacito]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

For 99.99% of history, 99.99% of people endured horrible lives by today's standards.
My Scottish ancestors had their land stolen from them under the highland clearances, generations of them were treated like animals. They were essentially booted out of their own country, and once in Australia they were forced to give up their language.
My English ancestors fared no better - they also lost their land in the Enclosure Acts and many were forced into factories so horrible they forever earned a name as "Dark Satanic Mills".
My Irish ancestors also lost their land, their food, and again in Australia were repressed based on their language and religion.

Indigenous Australians also suffered terribly in the last few centuries.

But there is not the money in the world, and never will be, to pay reparations to present-day people for historical wrongs to their ancestors.


This is a great point and adds perspective. My partner is Hungarian and the history of the oppression of her nation literally goes back almost a thousand years with only brief moments of freedom in between. Like the majority of the world today, NOW, TODAY AND TOMORROW are those moments of freedom.

It also brings into focus for me a very uncomfortable viewpoint that I am pretty nervous to raise here but will anyway to see if it generates any interesting discussion. I dont claim to be right about this, its just a thought exercise and I welcome corrections.

Pre Jan 1788, Australia was inhabited solely by our indigenous people. Over 10's of thousands of years they have moved over the continent, originally probably walking in from ancient land bridges and probably some limited contact and interbreeding with northern islanders and neoghbours. Over that time the aboriginal people we are told formed over 500 different nations within the continent.

So in Sydney, pre-Jan 1788 we had the Cadigal nation, next to Darugh, next to Guringai etc etc. They all had their own territories and areas that were for their clan.

**My thought experiment is this.....what kept that part of the continent Cadigal and this other part Darugh? Why and how were Darugh excluded from Cadigal areas? I can only make the strong assumption that these nations were kept separate at the end of a club or spear (no different to ancient Europe for that matter).** The next step in this thought experiment then is, arent the British just another tribe with better pointy sticks?

Would it have been more palatable if they were indonesian or PNG?

Ok, now Ive put that down, let me stand back and run away.

I did ask an Aboriginal elder from WA the same question.

The short version of his answer was that you needed specialist knowledge of your nation to survive (e.g how you catch fish in nation A is different to how you catch them on nation B).

He also said there were no real benefits from fighting with a neighbouring nation but a lot to gain in the form of trade, so it almost never happened.

 

[TillLindemann]

. My partner is Hungarian and the history of the oppression of her nation literally goes back almost a thousand years with only brief moments of freedom in between.

Yes the Magyar have had it as rough as anyone!

 

[Tiger5150]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

Statements like hers reinforces my opinion regarding Treaty, that it can only follow a true genuine reconciliation. By genuine I mean recognition that reconciliation requires bipartisan conciliation and we are YEARS away from that. Non Indigenous Australia has a long way to go to change opinions, culture and the last systemic impediments. When that is done, IMO then it will also take a step towards reconciliation on the part of indigenous Australians. Until we are at this stage, IMO a Treaty is not a true expression of reconcilation.

I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I am strongly against reparations for a few reasons...

1. Like you said, eligibility. I know a family, all naturally blond, fair skin, they cant point to an indigenous ancestor, but brag that they always tick the A/TSI box. You start offering $1M each, there will be a lot of boxes ticked.

2. I think it runs the risk of causing greater division. There will be plenty of people with the mindset that it didnt happen to this generation, I didnt do it, why should I pay. Plenty of these people may have their own struggles financially or socially and its pretty fertile ground for division. One third of our population werent even born here. What is the logic behind them paying?

3. I dont think it will help. It wont be $1M each. It would probably end up in the tens of thousands each if it happened and what would it actually change?

If I was made king of this joint, I would create a commission into the systemic issues that are stopping improvement in the "Closing the Gap REport" each year. What systemic impediments do indigenous people face such that they arent on the same footing as non indigenous people?

You make some really good points.

I'd point out that New Zealand got it right from the start and had the Treaty of Waitangi as a legally binding document separate from reconciliation.

I agree that the Waitangi Treaty is generally held as a positive but I think it holds some warnings and lessons for a potential treaty in Aus. Firstly I think that was beneficial that it was written and agreed on back then, almost 200 years ago, in that circumstance, in that time under those norms, principles etc. That document would never be agreed to today. The Maori ceded all sovereignty, governance and ultimately land title (not for free) almost immediately. There is still disagreement over the translation and meaning of the treaty today.

Secondly the Waitangi Treaty was written, considered and signed in less than a week. Not going to fly in 2021.

As Aussies, we really only have the Mabo ruling, which happened close to 30 years ago. We haven't made much meaningful legislative progress since.


I dont know this definitively, but I would suggest that the reason there hasnt been other legislative progress is that there is no real jurisdiction for legislative change.

It brings up another point that I dont think that many know of consider. The Mabo decision was ultimately a decision on and made in the jurisdiction of **British** Law. The Mabo decision ultimately was that the Brits carried out British Law incorrectly, and the Mabo decision corrected the implementation of British Law.

When discussion of invasion or colonisation is raised, IMO it seems to be a false binary of Indigenous culture OR British Colonisation. Sliding doors, how would it look to indigenous or non indigenous society today if it was Dutch/French/Spanish/Asian colonisers?

I suspect you probably know from your wording (but I'll point it out for the benefit of anyone reading his thread), the criteria for Aboriginality has nothing to do with the colour of your hair or skin.

Yes I did and thank you for the benefit of the doubt. My point being if there is a financial benefit to being aboriginal, the number will increase quickly. Humans are humans and if it can be gamed it will.

 

[earl]

I have no doubt that $1 million would be appropriate and would make a massive difference to a battler that was born in a remote community, wasn’t a citizen for a lot of their life, hasn’t had much of a chance to participate in modern Australian society and might not even have working plumbing.

Would it make a difference ? Honestly I'd pay it but then what happens to their children. Is every Indigenous child born given a 1 million dollar grant.

I don't know if hand-outs are the answer. I don't know what the answer is. I'm fine with changing Australia day to a different date and calling it Aboriginal day. I'll change the flag. I'll change the anthem. I'll give every Aboriginal 1 million dollars.

I still feel that these changes are not going to fix cultural issues in remote Indigenous communities.

I also think you have to be really really careful about trying to fix those communities. You end up in situations like the stolen generation.

I don't know how to fix these issues but I would like to see an end game scenario that is provided via Indigenous communities. Would a treaty detailing rights work ? I mean I remember Mabo being a big thing and has much changed since that point ?

 

[TrueTiger]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I wouldnt down vote your post mate your opinion is as good as anyone elses when searching for a solution....
NOW in my opinion,monetary gain should be given to Indigineous people carefully to spend on as someone else said,education,health,training for employment and other worthwhile training or trade competancy....
THe ONLY TRADE that would benefit her dumbass idea would be the liqour trade and that wont solve any of their problems,it would intensify them..lets face it, if more of the activists for Aboriginal people that want to crucify us for what happened to their ancestors got their way the indigenous people would be far worse off than their ancestors were,greed,unemployment,lazyness would all be at the top of the heap,instead if we educate and look after our Aboriginal family,maybe there will come a time a majority of them will see the sense in unification and brotherhood under the one flag and system....

just my rant for the day....I enjoyed working on our day AUSTRALIA DAY as I have always known it....

 

[happy_tiger]

Tomorrow in this year 2021 we as a nation are going to give an award to a Pentecostal preacher that vilifies others because of their sexuality, rather than her exploits on the tennis courts of the world which have already been long recognised.

We cannot expect to move move forward when this religious group has such overbearing representational influence on our nation.

A disgraceful decision. A total lack of understanding of what the Australian people want. It puts a massive stain on the Australia Day Honours.

I have come up with an excellent idea.....
I joined this great forum in 2014 and many others have been here much longer....
the idea I have is that I have had to put up with our great mods,Happy,Hobbo,CB,Coshise,Mike and many more that I havent got time to mention,I have educated them,knocked the rough edges off them,argued with them,abused them AND LOVED THEM everyday....
Now dont you guys think Im due for an Australian Day Honour...:eyes: :grin:

I’m not a admin/mod. I’m just a very naughty boy.

You smell like a MOD lol

 

[mike]

Tomorrow in this year 2021 we as a nation are going to give an award to a Pentecostal preacher that vilifies others because of their sexuality, rather than her exploits on the tennis courts of the world which have already been long recognised.

We cannot expect to move move forward when this religious group has such overbearing representational influence on our nation.

A disgraceful decision. A total lack of understanding of what the Australian people want. It puts a massive stain on the Australia Day Honours.

I have come up with an excellent idea.....
I joined this great forum in 2014 and many others have been here much longer....
the idea I have is that I have had to put up with our great mods,Happy,Hobbo,CB,Coshise,Mike and many more that I havent got time to mention,I have educated them,knocked the rough edges off them,argued with them,abused them AND LOVED THEM everyday....
Now dont you guys think Im due for an Australian Day Honour...:eyes: :grin:

I’m not a admin/mod. I’m just a very naughty boy.

You smell like a MOD lol

Hey, I use deodorant.

 

[innsaneink]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I'll fess up to giving you a down vote. Being paid reparations for something that didn't happen to you, by someone that didn't do it, is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

It is quite a fashionable idea in America at the moment, but dumb ideas becoming fashionable in America is not unusual.

I understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. I think most Aussies currently feel the same way.

I prefaced it with the eligibility bit because clearly $1 million to every man, woman and child probably isn't suitable.

At the very least, there are plenty of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people alive that deserve pretty serious compensation for not being citizens or being allowed to vote.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound so harsh. Outside the box ideas can often be circuit breakers. I am fully on board with any program that will make a meaningful impact to address current issues facing indigenous people - be it more money into education, health, employment opportunities. And we should do as much as we can to celebrate and preserve indigenous culture, not as a museum exhibit, but as an ancient but still living culture/s.

I just think trying to fix historical grievances is doomed to fail. Rather than spending money to make people feel better about what happened to their ancestors 200 years ago, we should be spending money to make people feel better about what their future descendants will be able to do (that sounds like a lame marketing slogan).

No worries mate, I'm not precious about people telling me they think I'm wrong.

My people also suffered persecution through recent history and weren't compensated but by the same token, I don't think that's a strong rationale for not drawing a line in the sand and compensating some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

The fact is that a massive number of people still alive lived through denial of basic human rights like being recognised as a citizen or being able to vote.

... and stolen from their parents

 

[innsaneink]

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I wouldnt down vote your post mate your opinion is as good as anyone elses when searching for a solution....
NOW in my opinion,monetary gain should be given to Indigineous people carefully to spend on as someone else said,education,health,training for employment and other worthwhile training or trade competancy....
THe ONLY TRADE that would benefit her dumbass idea would be the liqour trade and that wont solve any of their problems,it would intensify them..lets face it, if more of the activists for Aboriginal people that want to crucify us for what happened to their ancestors got their way the indigenous people would be far worse off than their ancestors were,greed,unemployment,lazyness would all be at the top of the heap,instead if we educate and look after our Aboriginal family,maybe there will come a time a majority of them will see the sense in unification and brotherhood under the one flag and system....

just my rant for the day....I enjoyed working on our day AUSTRALIA DAY as I have always known it....

I think most see what you're saying

A speaker at the event, Gwenda Stanley, told a crowd of more than 500 people that it was time Indigenous Australians were given proper reparations.

***“A million dollars for each black person,” she said.***

“Don’t be fooled by the Uluru statement from the arse. Let’s do reparations before treaty. A million dollars for each black person and than we can talk treaty.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/australia-day-police-vow-crackdown-on-invasion-day-protests-across-the-country/news-story/7c1abc3c0672086fdeae0c57a6f0fc83

**end**


I'm almost certainly going to be downvoted like my name's Ivan Cleary for saying this, but I don't think this is an entirely ridiculous sentiment.

We're talking about compensation for something that only happened three people or so ago (assuming people live to 80 years old).

And if we're being honest, Aboriginal people have only been recognised as Australian citizens since 1967 and were able to vote since the early 60s.

That's close to 200 years living under a system where you were effectively a second class citizen, in addition to a whole heaps of other pretty horrific things like the stolen generations.

It would be a nightmare to administer, a fair chunk would need to come from the Poms and you'd need to think about eligibility and the monetary amounts but I reckon there's a pretty strong case for some kind of reparations.

I wouldnt down vote your post mate your opinion is as good as anyone elses when searching for a solution....
NOW in my opinion,monetary gain should be given to Indigineous people carefully to spend on as someone else said,education,health,training for employment and other worthwhile training or trade competancy....
THe ONLY TRADE that would benefit her dumbass idea would be the liqour trade and that wont solve any of their problems,it would intensify them..lets face it, if more of the activists for Aboriginal people that want to crucify us for what happened to their ancestors got their way the indigenous people would be far worse off than their ancestors were,greed,unemployment,lazyness would all be at the top of the heap,instead if we educate and look after our Aboriginal family,maybe there will come a time a majority of them will see the sense in unification and brotherhood under the one flag and system....

just my rant for the day....I enjoyed working on our day AUSTRALIA DAY as I have always known it....

I think most see what you're saying in your posts, THEY have to learn OUR way... Because WE know better
Right.
You often mention having koori footy mates that worked etc...
But then generalise all.indigenous with alcoholic slurs along with laziness greed etc
Comes across as quite racist to me

 

[happy_tiger]

. My partner is Hungarian and the history of the oppression of her nation literally goes back almost a thousand years with only brief moments of freedom in between.

Yes the Magyar have had it as rough as anyone!

One of my favourite reads is James A Michener book The Bridge to Andau ...and is the story of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution of trying to break away from Russian rule ...amazing story .....a country who managed to blow up around 500 Russians Tanks with ingenuity and pure bravery .....