The Truth of the Matter

[stevied]

There has been a lot of discussion recently about whether or not the Tigers team is being creatively shackled by Jason Taylor. People such as Phil Gould and Andrew Johns have intimated this and opinion seems to be divided on this forum. The conflicting view can be summarized as this; The team needs to learn how to defend and grind out games before they have the license to freewheel v The Tigers halves need to play what's in front of them…....The fact of the matter is that the team needs to combine both. Yes, the team needs to defend well and control the ball but, also, the team needs to attack TEAMS WIN GAMES BY SCORING TRIES. Taylor is right in instilling strong defense and mistake free football but he is wrong in stopping any potential the team might have in scoring tries by ignoring the talent of Brooks, Moses and Tedesco.......Also, how is the undoubted potential of the two halves going to ever be realized if they are not allowed to try things?

 

[clontarfkid]

The truth of the matter is we have done an abysmal job of recruitment and retention and left Taylor with little to work with.
Whover had the idea of losing our two best backrowers from last season,our most penetrative back,and a pair of wingers that cld actually score tries??
We definitely have the worst roster in the comp..no ifs or buts

 

[Moh]

^Going round in circles.

Most of the players that have left, we have HAD to let go of because of circumstances. No way any club would have kept Austin over Moses at that stage last year - I am I HUGE Austin fan and like everyone else frustrated waiting for Moses and Brooks to reach their potential, but Moses and Brooks have been signed on as our future and Austin wasn't going to stick around playing 2nd fiddle. Lets get over that one at the very least.

Thompson wanted to be back home. Koro who I'm also a fan of wasn't putting in at training and in the end didn't want to be here.

The whole 'playing to JT's structure' thing is being overplayed IMO. At the end of the day the players play what's in front of them in attack and they've been gun-shy - Taylor can only enforce so much, teams don't always stick to game plans, if you KNOW you can do better would you not want to show you can?

I'm not taking blame away completely from JT, but I truly believe he's trying to take some pressure off our young blokes when he says they're struggling to play structured footy.

 

[Eddie]

Taylor is thin skinned. Anyone who rings a radio station to defend themselves is thin skinned.

He is not the sort of person who is going to say he needs to do a better job and he is going to start mixing things up.

it was the worry for me when he signed him. He can have all the knowledge and and structures etc but do people really, really want to play for him?

Time will tell and w have no option but to give him time. Any coach deserves a couple of years to have a proper assessment of the job they have been given. but his personality worries me a bit.

 

[bp_tiger]

^Going round in circles.

Most of the players that have left, we have HAD to let go of because of circumstances. No way any club would have kept Austin over Moses at that stage last year - I am I HUGE Austin fan and like everyone else frustrated waiting for Moses and Brooks to reach their potential, but Moses and Brooks have been signed on as our future and Austin wasn't going to stick around playing 2nd fiddle. Lets get over that one at the very least.

Thompson wanted to be back home. Koro who I'm also a fan of wasn't putting in at training and in the end didn't want to be here.

The whole 'playing to JT's structure' thing is being overplayed IMO. At the end of the day the players play what's in front of them in attack and they've been gun-shy - Taylor can only enforce so much, teams don't always stick to game plans, if you KNOW you can do better would you not want to show you can?

I'm not taking blame away completely from JT, but I truly believe he's trying to take some pressure off our young blokes when he says they're struggling to play structured footy.

SORRY MOH what plant u from, did u watch the press conference after the cowboys game where JT blamed the team for not playing better football and trying to win the game. For gods sake he is the coach sent out a message no more, one out football spin the ball unless thats what he wanted them to play, he is not a coachs arse hole.

 

[hobbo]

Taylor is thin skinned. Anyone who rings a radio station to defend themselves is thin skinned.

He is not the sort of person who is going to say he needs to do a better job and he is going to start mixing things up.

it was the worry for me when he signed him. He can have all the knowledge and and structures etc but do people really, really want to play for him?

Time will tell and w have no option but to give him time. Any coach deserves a couple of years to have a proper assessment of the job they have been given. but his personality worries me a bit.

He comes across as a basket case IMO .
Imagine Bennett , Bellamy or Hasler calling a radio station to defend his coaching credentials ….
:roll

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[sideline_eye]

^Going round in circles.

Most of the players that have left, we have HAD to let go of because of circumstances. No way any club would have kept Austin over Moses at that stage last year - I am I HUGE Austin fan and like everyone else frustrated waiting for Moses and Brooks to reach their potential, but Moses and Brooks have been signed on as our future and Austin wasn't going to stick around playing 2nd fiddle. Lets get over that one at the very least.

Thompson wanted to be back home. Koro who I'm also a fan of wasn't putting in at training and in the end didn't want to be here.

The whole 'playing to JT's structure' thing is being overplayed IMO. At the end of the day the players play what's in front of them in attack and they've been gun-shy - Taylor can only enforce so much, teams don't always stick to game plans, if you KNOW you can do better would you not want to show you can?

I'm not taking blame away completely from JT, but I truly believe he's trying to take some pressure off our young blokes when he says they're struggling to play structured footy.

SORRY MOH what plant u from, did u watch the press conference after the cowboys game where JT blamed the team for not playing better football and trying to win the game. For gods sake he is the coach sent out a message no more, one out football spin the ball unless thats what he wanted them to play, he is not a coachs arse hole.

Having read the two posts, I'd say that MOH is definitely from Planet Earth. bp tiger, on the other hand, seems to be using some alien form of language; I'm guessing that his last point indicates that he may be from Uranus.

 

[Russell]

^Going round in circles.

Most of the players that have left, we have HAD to let go of because of circumstances. No way any club would have kept Austin over Moses at that stage last year - I am I HUGE Austin fan and like everyone else frustrated waiting for Moses and Brooks to reach their potential, but Moses and Brooks have been signed on as our future and Austin wasn't going to stick around playing 2nd fiddle. Lets get over that one at the very least.

Thompson wanted to be back home. Koro who I'm also a fan of wasn't putting in at training and in the end didn't want to be here.

The whole 'playing to JT's structure' thing is being overplayed IMO. At the end of the day the players play what's in front of them in attack and they've been gun-shy - Taylor can only enforce so much, teams don't always stick to game plans, if you KNOW you can do better would you not want to show you can?

I'm not taking blame away completely from JT, but I truly believe he's trying to take some pressure off our young blokes when he says they're struggling to play structured footy.

SORRY MOH what plant u from, did u watch the press conference after the cowboys game where JT blamed the team for not playing better football and trying to win the game. For gods sake he is the coach sent out a message no more, one out football spin the ball unless thats what he wanted them to play, he is not a coachs arse hole.

Of course in the heat of the moment, under extreme pressure and with all their "Experience" they do everything he says.

Sure they do.
I saw all those misdirected kicks he put up, all the tackles JT missed again and the dropped balls he came up with again. It's a wonder they let him on the field.

Oh right! he wasn't on the field!!!!

or from your planet, you thought he was.

 

[stevetiger]

I don't believe that anyone is blaming JT for mistakes that the players make. That is on the players.

We can though blame JT for his terrible game plans. I think that is a fair comment isn't it. We can also state that his palava that we have to get the defence right and then everything will be perfect is also palava.

Lets be honest - he has been a terrible coach so far. That might change but at the moment its pretty obvious that he has no idea.

 

[westTAHger]

Most dis-appointing aspect so far is the 2 games that wests-tigers let slip, have bitten them on the bum already. Leading the dogs & raiders and losing. Can it be fixed ? Yes. Will it be this year? Who knows.

There must be a method and reason for the way the coach has them playing at the moment.

Only the coach knows this.

 

[happy_tiger]

I don't believe that anyone is blaming JT for mistakes that the players make. That is on the players.

We can though blame JT for his terrible game plans. I think that is a fair comment isn't it. We can also state that his palava that we have to get the defence right and then everything will be perfect is also palava.

Lets be honest - he has been a terrible coach so far. That might change but at the moment its pretty obvious that he has no idea.

Well Steve , Peter Sterling says it quite often "get your defence right and your attack will come "

Seeing that Sterling is probably in the Top 3 footballers I've ever seen and probably one of the best analytical football minds I've seen in the game I think I'll take what he thinks over what you think every day of the week

But then again I've never seen you play so maybe I shouldn't pre judge

 

[stevetiger]

But then again I've never seen you play so maybe I shouldn't pre judge

Correct. I played against Sterlo growing up and I was definitely the better player. I had a much better tactical vision. I don't though rely on that within my arguments because I don't like too brag. To add to all of this resorting to some higher authority in an attempt to discredit my argument shows that to me you can't discuss the point rationally.

To get it back on topic lets try and re-iterate your point back to you so that its clear. You believe that somehow JT is fixing our defence and that will turn us into a winning team. I don't believe this based on the following points:-

1\. I don't believe that our defence is getting better.
2\. I don't believe that there is some master plan that JT is following and then we will become a great defensive team and then the attack will somehow take care of itself.
3\. Attack and defence are both important. We need to do both.
4\. Playing positive footy leads to more wins than playing negative footy.
5\. Getting the most out of your players is critical to winning games. You need to have game plans that get the most out of your players.

There are probably a bunch of other points however at this point you do not have a rational argument to counter-balance what I and others are stating.

You appear to have a guru like belief in JT and his structures despite the evidence that is belting you in the head based on how we have performed. You can continue to believe that JT will lead us to the promised land however I think its pretty clear that he will need to change his approach significantly if we are ever going to become a quality team.

 

[happy_tiger]

But then again I've never seen you play so maybe I shouldn't pre judge

Correct. I played against Sterlo growing up and I was definitely the better player. I had a much better tactical vision. I don't though rely on that within my arguments because I don't like too brag. To add to all of this resorting to some higher authority in an attempt to discredit my argument shows that to me you can't discuss the point rationally.

To get it back on topic lets try and re-iterate your point back to you so that its clear. You believe that somehow JT is fixing our defence and that will turn us into a winning team. I don't believe this based on the following points:-

1\. I don't believe that our defence is getting better.
2\. I don't believe that there is some master plan that JT is following and then we will become a great defensive team and then the attack will somehow take care of itself.
3\. Attack and defence are both important. We need to do both.
4\. Playing positive footy leads to more wins than playing negative footy.
5\. Getting the most out of your players is critical to winning games. You need to have game plans that get the most out of your players.

There are probably a bunch of other points however at this point you do not have a rational argument to counter-balance what I and others are stating.

You appear to have a guru like belief in JT and his structures despite the evidence that is belting you in the head based on how we have performed. You can continue to belief that JT will lead us to the promised land however I think its pretty clear that he will need to change his approach significantly if we are ever going to become a quality team.

My rational argument is that every club that is successful or has been successful since 2005 puts defence first

But you still believe it should be secondary

We can attack , we know that

We need to change our mindset as a club

If we had a heap of players that had played 80 games plus we could look at this differently , but we don't so we can't

Many of these kids have a NYC mindset , this needs to change

Again as I have said before when have we proven we can attack and defend ??

 

[stevetiger]

My rational argument is that every club that is successful or has been successful since 2005 puts defence first

Do you have proof with regards to this point ?

But you still believe it should be secondary

No - I have personally never said that. I don't believe that anyone else has either.

We can attack , we know that

Not under JT we can't. Our attack is extremely poor.

We need to change our mindset as a club

Really ???? Who says ? Why ? Are there any facts to back this up ?

If we had a heap of players that had played 80 games plus we could look at this differently , but we don't so we can't

Many of these kids have a NYC mindset , this needs to change

Again why ? Is it the club or is it the NYC mind-set ? Are you sure that this is the case ?

I don't really want answers to my questions because I think its obvious that there are massive holes in your point of view.

At the end of the day you win games by scoring more points than the opposition. Its that simple. JT is at this point a failure when it comes to defence and attack.

 

[barra]

If we had a heap of players that had played 80 games plus we could look at this differently , but we don't so we can't

Many of these kids have a NYC mindset , this needs to change

Again why ? Is it the club or is it the NYC mind-set ? Are you sure that this is the case ?

Putting aside the other endless arguments for a minute… I am interested in this NYC mindset comment. I do think that deserves further discussion.

It has made me realise we are in mostly unchartered territory with so many NYC products currently in the team at the same time. Is it a bad thing that they have played so much junior footy together? Does it make the bad habits harder to erase? The 'playing to structure' concept more difficult to master?

I have little experience in these matters.

 

[stevied]

Ha ha, I thought you were addressing me when you alluded to 'Steve' Happy! Also, I'm glad you weren't querying my playing credentials as I clearly don't have any of note other than I liked playing when I did! However, I don't think you need to have had a first grade playing career to understand the game or to have an opinion. You're right, Sterlo has stated that a strong defense will lead to an offense that takes care of itself. But…....and this is a big but.....this assumes that the team is practising and attempting attacking structures intended to break down the opposition. Clearly, the Tigers are not. Again, I'll back up Steve and reiterate that a winning team needs to score tries as well as have a solid defense. Case in point......the defense against the Cowboys was good but our attack was deplorable. I'll add one more point which is bound to get a reaction from some.....the game as an overall spectacle has taken a down turn in recent times. It has become predictable and so structured as to appear programmed. I think all clubs have a responsibility to be at least a little bit entertaining......for their own fan base but also the game's.

 

[happy_tiger]

My rational argument is that every club that is successful or has been successful since 2005 puts defence first

Do you have proof with regards to this point ?

But you still believe it should be secondary

No - I have personally never said that. I don't believe that anyone else has either.

We can attack , we know that

Not under JT we can't. Our attack is extremely poor.

We need to change our mindset as a club

Really ???? Who says ? Why ? Are there any facts to back this up ?

If we had a heap of players that had played 80 games plus we could look at this differently , but we don't so we can't

Many of these kids have a NYC mindset , this needs to change

Again why ? Is it the club or is it the NYC mind-set ? Are you sure that this is the case ?

I don't really want answers to my questions because I think its obvious that there are massive holes in your point of view.

At the end of the day you win games by scoring more points than the opposition. Its that simple. JT is at this point a failure when it comes to defence and attack.

1 Lots of proof Steve

Melbourne is based on structured defence and attack , Broncos have always been based off structured defence ,St George were based on structured defence ,Manly , Souths ,Roosters all the same all based around structure

2 /Then if defence is important we are proving almost every week we can't do both suceesfully the results on the scoreboard and ladder prove that

3/So your suggesting if we keep the mindset of 2000-2014 and what we were doing pre 2015 we will be successful ??

4/ yes when you have a majority of players with less than 50 games they will fall back on what worked when they were younger ,they don't know better at 2014 proved that

5/ You score points from getting the ball in favourable field position consistently ,forcing turnovers and outdefending the opposition , we don't get in favourable field position You can't argue that , as you have admitted that defence is more important than attack

Your arguments shoot yourself in the foot

Steve you have no idea , you are part of the bring back 2005 , it will work eventually brigade

 

[Goose]

I 100% agree that defense wins competitions, and despite outdated mantras about defense being all about attitude, understand that defensive structures are very difficult to perfect.
I even understand the benefits of the much maligned mid field bomb has to the defensive start to the set.

However we have over done it on the scaling back of the attack IMO, we were better in that respect on Friday, if you are 2 one out, it is very difficult to build pressure, teams are not under the pump and you can't force penalties.

You can have a defensive mindset without fully giving away attack.
As said though in a lot of ways our attack in the middle of the field was better.

 

[Tim Sheens]

I 100% agree that defense wins competitions, and despite outdated mantras about defense being all about attitude, understand that defensive structures are very difficult to perfect.
I even understand the benefits of the much maligned mid field bomb has to the defensive start to the set.

However we have over done it on the scaling back of the attack IMO, we were better in that respect on Friday, if you are 2 one out, it is very difficult to build pressure, teams are not under the pump and you can't force penalties.

You can have a defensive mindset without fully giving away attack.
As said though in a lot of ways our attack in the middle of the field was better.

Pretty well agree, the attack was a little better overall, however the initial sets with the ball were putrid for mine, with the backs or Lawrence doing most of the fresh middle players work, that helped allow the Titans to get on top.

Taupau was almost invisible at the beginning, not doing any decoy work and did not even touch the ball until the fourth tackle or so of our third time with the ball. Nowhere near good enough for a rep player. Thought we got back into the game when Keefy came on and did his usual bit, and at least stopped giving an easy fifty odd or more metres per set immediately.