Treading water

Eddie

New member
Lets face it that is all we are doing in 2013\. We will beat a few more bottom feeders, however we won't beat a Melbourne, Souths, Manly, Easts, Newcastle, Bulldogs all year. We have a poor roster including many senior players that have not produced good football in 1-2 years. It's unbalanced with not enough speed, size or aggression. We have a litany of underachievers or just plain average players. Moving Anasta to halfback is just a stop gap, short term plan that might win us an extra game or two this season. It won't help us in a year or two when he inevitably retires a shadow of the player he was 6-8 years ago.

The tough situation is you have a rookie coach who knows he needs to win in the short term to get another contract. Therefore he is likely to stick with the senior players in order to finish 9th or 10th rather then risk cleaning house and bottoming out with young players. As long as there is sufficient faith in Potter then we should extend his deal a year or two and let him go about his work without the pressure of having to win a new contract. He should be allowed to cut blokes and recruit blokes to build a side that can win a premiership the way the modern game is played. He needs 3-4 years to achieve this.

Even though we can't win a premiership this year you should always pick a side around players that might win you one down the track. We simplyh have no chance with over half of our starting team this year. We could never win a competition with a player at fullback that runs for 30-40 metres a game. We can not win a competition with a stop gap halfback.

That's why i think it stinks a little that MIller gets 4 games and probably will not be seen again. I'm not convined about him, however i'm also not convinced he is no good. He was ours 20s half that won a competition, so he is coming off a year of decent footy. The likes of Moltzen, Blair, Anasta, Lawrence, Ayshford and co are all coming off a year of poor football and none have started the year well when you would think they have a point to prove.

I know it's a juggling act with bringing in youngsters and not letting their confidence get shot. Especially if the side is struggling. However I really don't think Potter can achieve anything with a 2 year deal, and a whole heap of players he would rather not have. He risks losing games and getting senior players off side by making whole sale changes in year 1 so his hands are a little tied.

We can build a good side around 1\. Tedesco 2\. Koro, 6\. Marshall, 7\. Brooks, 8\. Galloway. 9\. Farah 10\. Woods 13\. Sirro. However getting rid of average players like MOltzen, Reddy, Utai, Ashford, Anasta, Blair, Bell, will take 1-2 years. Recruitment should be based around speed, size and aggression to fill in the gaps above. There is enough class there to be a good football team if you add 1-2 more marquee players and some hungry players that fit the bill.

UNtil then we are probably just treading water. Lets face it we need a clean out, a proper one. The only thing masking the fct we need to clean out is we don't finish on the bottom of the ladder like Penrith and Parra. Thats because we have Farah and Marshall players ranked in the top 10 in the game, that have enough individually to beat 5-6 teams by themselves a year. We need to give the coach the staying power to have the confidence to conduct this clean out without him paying for it with his job. At the moment you have a Sheens roster, a rookie coach with a short term deal, an interited coaching staff and senior players on inflated deals. Potter have shown at least a inkling that he will select according to form, however l feel sorry for him the way Sheens left the roster.
 
Well put Eddie, till we have a mass clean out we will get no where we have to many ordinary Players in our squad. It doesn't matter who we bring up they are average and there is to many people on here that are delusional thinking our side is better than it really is.

_Posted using RoarFEED 2013_
 
i agree we need to build our team around a few good players and also need some size in our foward pack. atm people just keep running over us. i think recruiting pritchard is a good idea gives us size and a decent player. Also crocker is off contract at the end of the year and doesn't look to happy not even getting into the starting 17 for rabbits that is just a waste of talent. So if we buy a few big fowards i think we could do quite well.
 
What you are saying Eddie is true.Very few players come back stronger and better after a few lean years,most continue down the slide.Signing Anasta was a dumb move by Sheens and now we have to pick him every week at the expense of a young kid on the way up.

At present we are in damage control, we are trying not to loose games rather than trying to win them, I feel for Potter going into battle knowing you dont have the fire power to compete must be hard when your trying to forge a career in the NRL.

Lets hope he shows some guts and drops a few big names to if they continue to perform poorly. Miller must be so dirty to be the scape goat for last weeks game. Four weeks into 2013 and our mob look like they did when they hit rock bottom in 2012.

The cleanout must start now, get 17 players who want to win and teach them how,even if we have a few blow outs along the way
 
Kind of what Penrith are doing right now. It just needs stability at team management and coaching. There has to be an acceptance that there may be a few mediocre years and sacking the coach halfway through a rebuild will cause more damage than good.
 
I can't see Wests Tigers being in a position where there can be a mass clean out, that is living in a perfect world where the players needed are on the market and the salary cap is such that all these players can be bought and other clubs won't compete for their contracts. I agree that if Potter is the man to coach the club to a stronger position then he needs to be given security and tenure to do so as it will take time to develop young players of potential and time to attract the required established players to the club (do we have the money). In the meantime Potter has to do the best he can with what he's got he took the job on, it will be a challenge he must accept to show he has what it takes to coach in the NRL. In relation to treading water, I am concerned that even to do this will be tough come SOO series when we could lose Farah and Woods.
 
Very well put Eddie. I am in total agreeance and have been for a while now. We have blokes who even though try hard, just arent as good as the opposition. Fellas like Tuqiri, Moltzen, Reddy, Utai, Ayshford, Lawrence, Bell, Blair, Anasta, Fulton, Thompson….I would like to see the 2015 Wests Tigers take the field without any of them still on our books. That gives us 2 years to get the kids who won the comp last season and/or the NSW cup boys who played so well up to speed and into the first grade side as regular entities. We will need to buy the odd player to help them out and should be aggresive in the player market as well.

I dont agree with the Miller sacking. You need to be patient with your halves...especially one who is young and having his first decent crack at top grade. Sheens used him extremely poorly last year and damaged his growth more than encouraged it. To his credit he went back to the 20's and helped lead them to a premiership. He has been far from our worst this year and I am dissappointed to see him only get 4 games to develop what he has learnt throughout the offseason. We are now back to square one again combination wise which is the sort of stuffing around with the team lineup that saw Tim's throat eventually cut. I was prepared to give him 12 games and then assess whether he could be our long term solution. I am solidly in the camp of supporters who are prepared to write the season off premiership wise as long as we see exciting and encouraging days ahead through the promotion of our top quality juniors.

I think Potts is in a very unenviable position here. He is dealing with a sub par roster, and would have immence pressure building up on him from the self destructive idiots who sit on our boards. He screwed the pooch on Thursday night replacing Farah and debuting an inexperienced kid on the wing out of position. He has backed that up this week by sacking a bloke who has been training and playing halfback for us for the past 4-5 months. I think he is misusing the bench and struggling to find his identity. He has stated that he has worked hard on our defence yet we are still letting in a lot of points and scrambling to save even more. Our defence has barely improved - if at all. That said, I still believe that if given the latitude he can make a fist of his role but it is going to be a long road that could well include some scorelines like the one Parramatta copped on Monday night. It is the reality we face and it is going to be a very bumpy road. We are a bottom 8 roster with injuries to key personel and it is going to be a hard year for us all. There are some fantastic sides in this comp and even though we will snag the odd brilliant win against some of them, backing up week after week against such strong competition will be ardous in the extreme.

The fact farah re-signed with us (which seems a poor career move on the surface) does fill me with hope that he is aware of our long term plan and see's merit within it. We as supporters must trust in this as well.
 
No crisis here… we don't need a cleanout.

We've got good players who are lazy and don't hold themselves accountable for their performances. They need a bit of the brutal truth.

We've got a bad habit of taking too many curtain calls when we thump Parra, Warriors, Penrith or Canberra and then we bottle when we get put under pressure by other teams with as much or more talent than us. The Cowboys are the same.

Its just up to potter to keep them fit and get them playing for each other. Its cultural.
 
Eddie you have made some great points however I agree with Tigers that a full clean out is not required but a change in the culture starting with accountability.

We came second in State Cup and won Under 20's.

We need to buy 2 experienced props and a speedy centre.

Over the next couple of years I like to see the following players moved on

Lote, Utai, Reddy, Anasta, Lawrence, Ashyford, Moltzen, Bell and BMM (if he does not improve this year)

My side would include

Teddy
Koro
Simona
Nofo
Mr T
Marshall
Brooks
Blair
Eastwood (new player)
Gravet
Tolman (new player)
Legend
Galloway

Bench

Woods
Buchanan
Ava
Thompson
Sue
Groat
BMM (if he picks up his game)
Fulton

Above side has speed in the backs and size and aggression in the forwards plus some depth.
 
I certainly don't disagree Eddie. Realistically as the side stands now, the best we can hope for is the 7-8th on the table. Like you said we just don't have the cattle across the park. In order for us to get there several players are going to have to find another level. Ayshford, Lawrence, Moltzen and Blair in particular. We have a solid base for a good side in Koro, Marshall, Woods and Farah but 4 players isn't going to get you far. Last week proved it and Monday night will back it up. We're along way off the better teams.
 
Eddie, once again the voice of reason.

I do think Blair can work well in a structured, talented and well disciplined side and I think Bell although nothing more than an honest toiler, should be kept - you need one or two of these types of players in any team. Our problem is we have way too many of them.

Realistically, as you say, there are just way too many holes, and way too many average players on our roster.
 
My point in regards to Blair is his value for money. With him on the coin he is on, we will always have holes in the the squad. He does not have marquee talent, thus we can't afford a marquee replacement with superior influence because of his contract. I have seen improvements at times this year, however at close to 500K we will never get any value. With the likes of Marshall and Farah on the books it doesn't leave room for another 500K plus player of true worth. You want marquee players to really influence games or have a presence like Ellis, Blair simply doesn't measure up.
 
@Eddie said:
My point in regards to Blair is his value for money. With him on the coin he is on, we will always have holes in the the squad. He does not have marquee talent, thus we can't afford a marquee replacement with superior influence because of his contract. I have seen improvements at times this year, however at close to 500K we will never get any value. With the likes of Marshall and Farah on the books it doesn't leave room for another 500K plus player of true worth. You want marquee players to really influence games or have a presence like Ellis, Blair simply doesn't measure up.

that's a very good point, but i think he has signed with us for 4 years and we do know he has the talent to be a forward with good go forward, tight defense and timely off loads… if he plays to his potential, we can base a team around him as well.
 
This is good thread post Eddie.
I agree with you on most of the points you mention. We do need more speed and aggression in our team, which is still lacking this season.

The possible "stoush" between Farah and Miller, I do believe there is one, does not help imbed the youngster into our team. If there is a problem between these two, it should be sorted out off the field - and perhaps Miller should remain in the team, he must feel like a total outcast at the moment, and being replaced with a player, who has experience, but is not a halfback :crazy

I am unhappy with some of the senior players as well, I thought they would have come out all guns blazing this season, but it has not happened, so I too hope that Potter does have the courage to drop some of them 😛ray: He has inherited the same coaching staff which is unfortunate - until he is able to pick his own staff, nothing much will change
We can hope for a miracle though 😛ray:
 
Just wondering whether us WT fans would be happy to just write this season off (in reality we aren't within cooee of the best sides in the comp), throw some rookies in the side in place of under-performing regulars and give them all 20 or so games to see whether they sink or swim?

IMO this is the best direction to head for the future of WT, we will cop some awful hidings and maybe finish wooden-spooners but along the way we may just forge a team of steel in the furnace. Sirro, Nofo, Sue, Brooks, Naiyavoro, Santi, Passi and some others need an opportunity to show their talent, no use just going through the motions this season and having to blood them from afresh next year.

Better to finish at the bottom and in the coming years challenge for the minor premiership than stick with the same old same and hopefully scrape into the 8 only to get walloped by the good teams year after year.
 
@tigeress said:
This is good thread post Eddie.
I agree with you on most of the points you mention. We do need more speed and aggression in our team, which is still lacking this season.

The possible "stoush" between Farah and Miller, I do believe there is one, does not help imbed the youngster into our team. If there is a problem between these two, it should be sorted out off the field - and perhaps Miller should remain in the team, he must feel like a total outcast at the moment, and being replaced with a player, who has experience, but is not a halfback :crazy

I am unhappy with some of the senior players as well, I thought they would have come out all guns blazing this season, but it has not happened, so I too hope that Potter does have the courage to drop some of them 😛ray: He has inherited the same coaching staff which is unfortunate - until he is able to pick his own staff, nothing much will change
We can hope for a miracle though 😛ray:

Do you think that these senior players had a lot to did with sheens' sacking and having been successful in achieiving this are now arrogantly forcing the club to do whatever they (senior players) want?
 
@Fade To Black said:
Just wondering whether us WT fans would be happy to just write this season off (in reality we aren't within cooee of the best sides in the comp), throw some rookies in the side in place of under-performing regulars and give them all 20 or so games to see whether they sink or swim?

IMO this is the best direction to head for the future of WT, we will cop some awful hidings and maybe finish wooden-spooners but along the way we may just forge a team of steel in the furnace. Sirro, Nofo, Sue, Brooks, Naiyavoro, Santi, Passi and some others need an opportunity to show their talent, no use just going through the motions this season and having to blood them from afresh next year.

Better to finish at the bottom and in the coming years challenge for the minor premiership than stick with the same old same and hopefully scrape into the 8 only to get walloped by the good teams year after year.

Good idea FTB but in today's corporate world the key stake holders and sponsors wouldn't accept a spoon finish and unless I am mistaken Potter as a person will understand this and be torn between what is in the best interests of the club in the longer term and his job (and reputation) in the short term.

With this in mind I think he will take a bet each way and 'blood' some of the younger players during the year and put up with under performance from some of the more higher profile players throughout the season. In blooding the younger players I think we will see them get some time (experience) in NRL to cover for injuries then be dropped back to State Cup and/or NYC

As a side note…I don't think you can take go forward players like Galloway, Koro and potentially Gavat/Groat/Mosese out of any NRL side and expect to compete against the likes of Storm/Eagles/Dogs/Bunnies consistently so I am hopeful that in the next 4-8 weeks when 4 of the 5 return our team will be a lot more potent than it is at the moment. This go forward in turn should give our play makers more room/time to move and then we can really see if our backs are really under performers in attack.
 
@Newtown said:
@tigeress said:
This is good thread post Eddie.
I agree with you on most of the points you mention. We do need more speed and aggression in our team, which is still lacking this season.

The possible "stoush" between Farah and Miller, I do believe there is one, does not help imbed the youngster into our team. If there is a problem between these two, it should be sorted out off the field - and perhaps Miller should remain in the team, he must feel like a total outcast at the moment, and being replaced with a player, who has experience, but is not a halfback :crazy

I am unhappy with some of the senior players as well, I thought they would have come out all guns blazing this season, but it has not happened, so I too hope that Potter does have the courage to drop some of them 😛ray: He has inherited the same coaching staff which is unfortunate - until he is able to pick his own staff, nothing much will change
We can hope for a miracle though 😛ray:

Do you think that these senior players had a lot to did with sheens' sacking and having been successful in achieiving this are now arrogantly forcing the club to do whatever they (senior players) want?

What do they want :question: I would have thought they would all want to play good footy, and achieve the finals this season - achieve a good result for themselves and the new coach :bulb:
 
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