John Bateman Archives

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hsvjones said:
Spot on mate...
We could buy Slater, Smith and Cronk in there prime and people on here would be spraying negative rubbish.. You cannot win.
Sheen clearly knows we need experience players to lead and develop all these young ones but everyone he seems to be looking at is too old, too small, bad past, doesn't make enough meters to most on here but if they checked out this years team anyone is an upgrade.
Sheen's has let every player go that should go and looking to add talent. If he pulls the Klemmer, Bateman , and Moses rumours off he deserves a statue out the front..
We are 100% on the way up IMO and the culture will change for the better
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And if we end up 100% on the way down again with poor recruitment,we end up in the same culture swamp we have been in the last 10 years...
Im not sure Sheens,Benji Farah are the answer,but its the clubs decision and we have to run with it and HOPE like hell it works...
 
Would you agree that the junior talent we had at our disposal from 2005 -2012 is eons better than we currently have

Marshall
Farah
Lawrence
Lui
Fifita
Woods
Tedesco
Dwyer
Halatau
Moltzen

And if we learnt anything from those years ...talent attracts talent ......Keefy ...Tuqiri ....Ellis ....Morris .....Hodgson .....Blair......

Well it's an interesting question Happy, because much of the talent you have listed here did not become available to Sheens until well into his Tigers tenure. You are talking here about players that became available over the course of his full 10 years, many of those you named not before 2009.

In 2003 we already had Benji, Farah, Gibbs, Fulton, Halatau and Laffranchi in the system. What Sheens did was correctly recruit around that core talent; which ultimately ended up being a generational pool of talent.

So if it's a question of "does Sheens in 2023 have the same kind of junior talent that he had available in 2003", the answer is no. Bearing in mind that the 2003 juniors were uncommonly good, it's a young team next year, and although he has some decent young blokes with experience (To'a, AJ, Simpkin, Junior Tupou, Daine Laurie, Tommy Talau, Blore), none of them have yet shown to be a next-level talent. Adam Doueihi is only 24.

Probably the best young talent Sheens has available in 2023 is Stefano and Fonua Pole.

Interestingly then, the next prominent names I hear in the juniors are also forwards: Matamua, Rua, Tumeth, Ma'anaima, Felix Smith, Chris Faagutu. We don't seem to have that next prominent back or half, which is problematic.

But will Sheens have some top-tier juniors available to hand over to Benji in 2025? The answer might well be yes. With that all-conquering Wests Harold Matts side Tigers have a similar successful core group (like 2003) that could produce 3 or 4 quality first graders, e.g. Tallyn Da Silva, Jordan Miller etc. After that some highly regarded talent the grade below - the Large brothers, Ali Karnib, Isdale.

So don't get me wrong, I had lots of issues with Sheens' tactics last time around, and his modest success at Wests Tigers is only remarkable (finals 3/10 seasons) compared to the crushing lack of success to follow him.

BUT in terms of overall roster development, smart experienced signings and hanging on to the best juniors, we haven't had anyone better than Sheens.
 
jirskyr said:
BUT in terms of overall roster development, smart experienced signings and hanging on to the best juniors, we haven't had anyone better than Sheens.
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Do you think the success of 2005 and the Juniors he walked into afforded him the ability to hold future Juniors, And to get Juniors to commit to the club on the back of those players?

I feel it was also a different generation back then, The World was a much bigger place than it is now...
Internet wasn't immediate and the likes, Was a bit easier to keep secrets and hide good kids away.

You're right though, He's the best we've had at it.... He's also had the longest time to be the best - And as you say, Kicked off with generational talent.
 
"Ask any of the player managers how good our crop of kids are," Sheens said.

"That's part of the issue ... we have a very, very good group of kids and we've got every club in the game chasing them."
Sheens quote from 2012.

Things havnt changed in relation to percieved talent and neither have we as a club to retain and develop them - yet other clubs have.
While ever the salary cap in a competitive Sydney market allows clubs to afford and keep the best players, holding onto and developing those players here, is going to be a challenge for any coach yet it seems we consistently make the coach accountable.
It's going to take more than Tim Sheens to compete with the strong Sydney market to lift this club out of the doldrums and it starts in the head office. We are financially in a better position - that can't be ignored - but we have a lot of ground to make up to change the perception that this club is not a place to advance your career - player or coach.
 
The positive from our pathways is the re-engagement with the Campbelltown and Macarthur districts. We had Hodgson, Gibbs, Fulton, Noafaluma and Tedescio (and no doubt others) emerge. The quality of the latest crop confirms we are learning from past mistakes. The intention of the Govt to continue to develop homes in the SW release areas is good news for WTs.
 
batboy said:
Do you think the success of 2005 and the Juniors he walked into afforded him the ability to hold future Juniors, And to get Juniors to commit to the club on the back of those players?
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Not really, no.

For example, even though we won the comp we still couldn't get any players in Origin that year, and Scott Prince was the only rep when selected for the Kangaroos tour in the off-season. I.e. your captain and Clive Churchill medallist is the only bloke who gets a look in for secondary Test matches. So I don't think anyone took our success seriously, or thought it was part of a new Tigers dynasty, or that our players were truly top-tier footballers.

I think Sheens was the first coach to properly install a Wests Tigers culture, and for all the modern talk of identity, Tigers did have a unique identity back then, not always a positive one, of being entertaining, dangerous and defensively frail. I think it's that culture that appealed to the juniors, and the long-term commitment of key respectable players like Benji and Farah. We haven't had that next Benji or Farah since Sheens left, who makes other players better and makes them want to stay at the club, even if not constantly playing finals football. We may have had a new breed with Tedesco, Moses, Woods and Brooks, but 3 of them overlooked the club for self-interest, and the guy we kept has consistently failed.

It is of course the "boys club" that is identified as one of the downfalls of Sheens Mk I, a comfort, familiarity and commitment to the club that started to get in the way of results, where we were actually struggling to move some decent players on, rather than struggling to keep them.

But you are right also that some of that consideration is 20 years old, and it's a full 2-3 generations of footballers hence that we need to consider. The market is definitely much more self-interest, self-brand. Instagram and Tiktok didn't even launch until 2010 and 2016 respectively.
 
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