Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

Todd Packer said:
C'mon man, That's ridiculous. Don't be a dick just for the sake of being a dick.
Make your point like an adult discussing an issue. You really believe that losing in tight close games doesn't mean you're closer to turning things around than losing by 74.
Wake up to yourself.
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Where have I said that is the case?
 
The petition doesn’t seem primarily focused on removing the coaches, but if that’s all we can do, it’s a good start.
They have been beyond shit all year.
 
WesternSuburbsBoy said:
He’s to blame for our current halves dilemma or do you guys not understand that?
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Why cause he flicked Hastings? He’s been trying hard to sign a quality half. It’s just we have been shit fir so long, it’s not easy!! He recruited well in the forwards last season, he knows we need halves, let’s see what he does now.
 
lathami said:
Why cause he flicked Hastings? He’s been trying hard to sign a quality half. It’s just we have been shit fir so long, it’s not easy!! He recruited well in the forwards last season, he knows we need halves, let’s see what he does now.
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Mate he sacked Madge & just stood by & watched us lose every game & cop the spoon even though he knew he was going to be head coach this year. Last years spoon is as much on Sheens as it is on Lee & Justin. Brooks requested twice to leave last year meanwhile Hastings wanted to stay but was told he’s a lock now they’re both gone & we have no halves for next season.

We’ll always have admiration for what Sheens did in 05 but bringing him back was yet another stupid decision by our wonderful front office. Everyone thinks our pathways is a success because of Sheens but how could he do so much in a year? It was Madge who laid all the ground work for our pathway systems which he doesn’t get recognition for.
 
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WesternSuburbsBoy said:
Mate he sacked Madge & just stood by & watched us lose every game & cop the spoon even though he knew he was going to be head coach this year. Last years spoon is as much on Sheens as it is on Lee & Justin. Brooks requested twice to leave last year meanwhile Hastings wanted to stay but was told he’s a lock now they’re both gone & we have no halves for next season.

We’ll always have admiration for what Sheens did in 05 but bringing him back was yet another stupid decision by our wonderful front office everyone thinks our pathways is a success because of Sheens but how could he do so much in a year? It was Madge who laid all the ground work for our pathway systems which he doesn’t get recognition for.
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Dude, benji won the apprentice. Nuf said.
 
BAGNF05 said:
Attacking structure is an interesting concept, I’ve done some coaching with people who have played at a high enough level and recently a lot of traditional structure has actually been removed as it limits players, especially young ones. Panthers game is built on big talented outside backs who do a hell of a lot of grunt work, saving their forwards to be more ruthless in defense. They obviously have enough quality players to adapt their game plan throughout a game. Their coach was in our building remember and with a lesser roster he couldn’t achieve that much.
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I'd say Penrith is more than Cleary. I think they have players playing the Penrith style throughout juniors because they all come in and start and look sharp straight away.

I don't think structure has to be complicated, just has to be effective and teachable. I agree that the problem with many coaches is too much structure. Madge and Taylor at tigers seemed to suffer from that.
 
BAGNF05 said:
Just started making inroads and got neutered.
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This is what did it for me. There had been a noticeable change in positivity in the players this year, even early in the season when we didn't win a game. Then we win 3 from 4 and things start to look promising. Yes, Api and Brooks got injured, which has hurt us, but the decision by Lee and Pascoe to not communicate with coaches about bringing Fulton in was just plain stupid. Add to that management not being on the same page as the coaches about Luke Brooks and once again there is disenchantment and negativity in the camp. This is why I signed the petition - to analyse the performance of senior management at the club.
 
jirskyr said:
Agree about the idea of a system, but disagree about the systems we have now and have had in the past.

2005 was not a fluke, I hate when people say this. You cannot win the NRL competition on a fluke. 2005 was the result of a plan working out perfectly; it only seems like a fluke because it worked out earlier than perhaps we expected.

But there was nothing miraculous about the way things gelled, it was planned. Sheens knew he had quality juniors and he knew he had to support them with astute signings, particularly players on the comeback (cheaper to purchase) and some older mentors to guide them.

He knew Benji and Farah were potentially elite talent and immediately gave them a taste of FG in 2003. He made some astute junior signings at the same time via Laffranchi and Heighington, to support other quality juniors like Fulton and Gibbs coming through. He backed Hodgson, Richards and Prince to recapture the form they were capable of, and he picked up some reliable clubmen like Whatuira and Elford to bolster our capability across the park.

There's nothing flukey about that, and it makes perfect sense, for example, that you would try and sign a guy like Scott Prince to partner Benji, knowing Prince always had huge potential so long as the injuries could be managed.

The Tigers clearly improved from 13th 2003 to 9th 2004 to 4th 2005 in the regular season. They clearly developed as a side and may have even done better in 2004 had Benji and Farah not gotten long-term injured.

It also helped that Sheens predicted where the reffing style was headed in 2005 and both coached and recruited for a fast-flowing pro-attack style.

After that, Sheens proved he could get the team back to top-tier football by changing his strategy up a bit. Benji had that bad run of shoulder injuries from 2006 and Prince/Laffranchi were poached by Titans for 2007, and the reality is that Tigers had never had the depth or long-term financing to absorb massive hits to a plan like that. But Sheens got them back to the top and I don't think it's hyperbole to say the 2010-2011 teams were probably better overall than the 2005 side that won.

Since then, we don't stick to any plan. Coaches are given 2-3 years then hoiked. We moved away from junior development because we were unhappy with the boom/bust cycles of Tim Sheens, and we tried to polish our brand rather than rely on the gritty / partially risky / high-attack style of football that worked for us on and off. We hired coaches that promised to make us defensive powerhouses.

I personally believe that had Sheens stayed on after 2012, he could have taken that new crop of juniors via Brooks / Moses / Tedesco and developed a new top-flight team. He had the basics there, plus others like Koroibete, Woods, Simona, Lawrence. But I understand why, after 10 years, the management felt they wanted to move on from that boom-bust cycle.

Right now 2023 we are trying to go back to that Sheens-style plan of getting a young and competitive team that can challenge for the finals over several seasons. But part of the challenge is we are trying to do this from dead last and from a decade-long losing streak, rather than a baseline of teams that are already on the fringe of finals contention.

Fans and media are already calling for Sheens to be sacked or Benji to be brought forward, and now this big push to get Pascoe and Lee H pushed out. I'm not particularly for or against such arguments, but everyone does need to keep in mind the bigger picture that the Sheens/Marshall rebuild is less than 1 season old. It's not a terrible strategy, even if the results in 2023 are horrendous. It may be true that Sheens is no longer capable of developing a finals-bound side and it may turn out that Benji can't coach, but as a multi-year plan it's not horrendous.

But fundamentally fans have had enough of the failure and it seems nobody is really willing to give Sheens and Benji the 4-5 seasons that would legitimately be required to turn things around. Lee H calls for patience and people basically want to rip his hat off.

Even the recruitment 2022-2023 is not scattershot, as you described it. The identified weaknesses in the forwards and addressed them. The single recruitment drive of Api / IP / Klemmer / Bateman is, on paper, arguably one of the best in Tigers history. They have targeted a top-flight halfback despite the lack of pulling power of the club. But the backs are weak and the hyped-up juniors are just a few too many seasons away, rather than the perfect storm of 2004-2005.

I understand why people are so upset after the 74-0 result. It was one of the most embarrassing things I've seen. But I do also remember, for example, when we lost 56-6 and 66-12 in consecutive weeks 2001, in a season that included the infamous Hopoate finger plus McGuinness and Field getting done for coke. I remember 2004 mid-season when we got done 50-0 and 56-0 in consecutive weeks. We did rebound from those low points. It is quite reasonable that if you stick to the plan, you can achieve long-term results.
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I think Sheens recruited well and allowed them to play. I don't think it was particularly good attacking strategy. 2010 and 11 were good years, but 2006-2009 were not great and there was plenty of talent in those teams. I think Folkes doing conditioning for us in 2010 and 11 was big in us doing well those years. We fell away again when he left.

I always think back to those two consecutive losses in 04 and admire Sheens for his foresight there. I think, much to the outrage of fans at the time (and me), he kept pretty much the same team week after week despite that. How did he know what he had at that point?

But perhaps I was too harsh in calling 05 a fluke. Whatever it was, I don't think it proved sustainable.
 
Todd Packer said:
You petition boys don't see a similarity between Parra tonight and our last few weeks?
We have no spine due to injuries.
Maybe wait until the coaches who've only been in charge for 5 minutes have a team to work with.
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Unlike Parra we havnt seen a finals game in 10 years, not fair to compare when they have no issue recruiting new players and making finals series.
 
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