Referendum 2023

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Carefactor said:
Probably the best person to listen to when it comes to making an informed decission . I honestly hope every one can spare some time to hear what she has to say, definitely adds more balance and fact then we here as a group can.
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It’s interesting to note the differences in tone between Yes campaigners and No campaigners.
The aggression and condescending smug attitude of the Yes leaders is a window into how the Voice would have operated. The reasoned and evidential opinions of the No campaigners shows that when the Voice fails, the fight goes on.
Also, I’ve called BS on stats stating 80% of Indigenous support the Voice from day dot. It is definitely not my experience after speaking with lots of people. Jacinta suggests it’s almost 180 degrees the other way. I wouldn’t fully agree with that, but it’s a majority No from what I’ve seen.
 
Carefactor said:
Probably the best person to listen to when it comes to making an informed decission . I honestly hope every one can spare some time to hear what she has to say, definitely adds more balance and fact then we here as a group can.
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If Albo wants his succession plan to include a seamless transition to a top job in the UN, then he’d be crazy to debate her.
 
Tucker said:
It’s interesting to note the differences in tone between Yes campaigners and No campaigners.
The aggression and condescending smug attitude of the Yes leaders is a window into how the Voice would have operated. The reasoned and evidential opinions of the No campaigners shows that when the Voice fails, the fight goes on.
Also, I’ve called BS on stats stating 80% of Indigenous support the Voice from day dot. It is definitely not my experience after speaking with lots of people. Jacinta suggests it’s almost 180 degrees the other way. I wouldn’t fully agree with that, but it’s a majority No from what I’ve seen.
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At least here all the yes and no people are cool. We have differences i guess. But we hear each other out. Wrong or right - We are all in this together.
 
Tucker said:
Lol geeze that can’t be good.
It is certainly an us vs you thing…the Voice is the least controversial part of it.
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Nobody seems to know how many pages are in the Uluru Statement from the Heart, but it has been written by a lawyer. Peta Credlin came across the unredacted FOI copy of the statement, and it appears that the document available for public scrutiny (the one Albo claims he hasn't read) has been redacted.
They've been lying to us all the time.
Seems to be only a small number of Aboriginals now pushing this divisive crap.
 
Tucker said:
Lol geeze that can’t be good.
It is certainly an us vs you thing…the Voice is the least controversial part of it.
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If you listen to the full statement by Mundine, the media has lept on the "declaration of war" segment which is without doubt inflammatory, but the rest of the statement I thought was very balanced and very true.

In particular he said something that I have long thought that true reconcillation is not possible between indigenous and non indigenous people until acceptance flows both ways. I thikn we area a long way from real reconcilliation and IMO the nation has a bit of growing to go before we get there. We are still in the stage where non indigenous Australians are accepting their role in the history of Australia and particularly the place of indigenous Australians in that history and it is correctly a difficult process whereby non indigenous Australians are having to learn and accept some hard truths and be apologetic about it and seek to fix it. The next step, down the track will be indigenous acceptance and reconciliation with non indigenous Australians.

I think there is a very long way to go before actual real reconcilliation but I also thin the clock is ticking because I also feel that Australian culture is moving away from an indigenous v "anglo" paradigm and the further we get away from it the less clear that reconciliation will be.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
If you listen to the full statement by Mundine, the media has lept on the "declaration of war" segment which is without doubt inflammatory, but the rest of the statement I thought was very balanced and very true.

In particular he said something that I have long thought that true reconcillation is not possible between indigenous and non indigenous people until acceptance flows both ways. I thikn we area a long way from real reconcilliation and IMO the nation has a bit of growing to go before we get there. We are still in the stage where non indigenous Australians are accepting their role in the history of Australia and particularly the place of indigenous Australians in that history and it is correctly a difficult process whereby non indigenous Australians are having to learn and accept some hard truths and be apologetic about it and seek to fix it. The next step, down the track will be indigenous acceptance and reconciliation with non indigenous Australians.

I think there is a very long way to go before actual real reconcilliation but I also thin the clock is ticking because I also feel that Australian culture is moving away from an indigenous v "anglo" paradigm and the further we get away from it the less clear that reconciliation will be.
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So very true .Our culture for both anglo and first nations people are slowly being swallowed 😥
 
Lauren said:
"Indigenous Australians aren't listened to by policymakers."

This section is disappointing to read because it's far from the truth with Child Protection Agencies/Services, as they have been sounding the alarm about this particular issue. They are asking for more involvement with policymaking as it’s highly regarded as a barrier.
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when you talk about indigenous Australians, you’re not talking about a race. I’m an indigenous Aussie, a 5th generation Australian, but not Aboriginal. Aboriginality is a race. Big difference.
 
Tucker said:
It’s interesting to note the differences in tone between Yes campaigners and No campaigners.
The aggression and condescending smug attitude of the Yes leaders is a window into how the Voice would have operated. The reasoned and evidential opinions of the No campaigners shows that when the Voice fails, the fight goes on.
Also, I’ve called BS on stats stating 80% of Indigenous support the Voice from day dot. It is definitely not my experience after speaking with lots of people. Jacinta suggests it’s almost 180 degrees the other way. I wouldn’t fully agree with that, but it’s a majority No from what I’ve seen.
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Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine and Lidia Thorpe seem as mad as each other.

I mean can anyone here seriously think a "No" vote will help move the date of Australia day more then a "yes" vote as Warren Mundine has said? (not arguing a date moving, just with or without the voice, which is more likely to change the date of Australia day?)

Heck Warren Mundine is a reason for "the voice"
Appointed to an Indigenous council by Tony Abbott, then council is dissolved by Malcolm Turnbull 4 years later. Do people get that this is what the issue is about.

Aboriginal council is created, Aboriginal people are picked for that council, sometimes elected (ATSIC) usually appointed. Council says stuff government of the day dislikes. Council is disbanded. New council is formed and a new round of "enquiries" is held, which find the same things as the "enquiries" did last year, and the year before that... and the decade before that....

Voting No won't change this stupid cycle above.
 
crazycat said:
I mean can anyone here seriously think a "No" vote will help move the date of Australia day more then a "yes" vote as Warren Mundine has said? (
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He is a little bit all over the place and not making a coherent argument. Why does voting no lead to a treaty happening more quickly ? What reasons are there to vote no apart from getting to a treaty more quickly ? If Indigenous people are doing well why do we have the closing the gap idea being agreed to from all sides of politics ?

The thing is when he says we have to stop the hand-out mentality that appeals to a lot of people including myself. This to me is a discussion that needs to happen and it to me should be part of truth-telling. The reality is that you (and me) are responsible for your (our) life. I also don't see Indigenous people suffering from being a victim anymore than any group within the general population.

The question is where do you draw this line. At this point I can't say no to the Voice because the cost is basically nothing. The Indigenous spend right now is less than 1% of our federal budget. That is fact.
 
earl said:
He is a little bit all over the place and not making a coherent argument. Why does voting no lead to a treaty happening more quickly ? What reasons are there to vote no apart from getting to a treaty more quickly ? If Indigenous people are doing well why do we have the closing the gap idea being agreed to from all sides of politics ?

The thing is when he says we have to stop the hand-out mentality that appeals to a lot of people including myself. This to me is a discussion that needs to happen and it to me should be part of truth-telling. The reality is that you (and me) are responsible for your (our) life. I also don't see Indigenous people suffering from being a victim anymore than any group within the general population.

The question is where do you draw this line. At this point I can't say no to the Voice because the cost is basically nothing. The Indigenous spend right now is less than 1% of our federal budget. That is fact.
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At least he's consistent. Theres so many contradictions, misinformation and political ideology in this 1 post I dont even know where to begin.
 
crazycat said:
Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine and Lidia Thorpe seem as mad as each other.

I mean can anyone here seriously think a "No" vote will help move the date of Australia day more then a "yes" vote as Warren Mundine has said? (not arguing a date moving, just with or without the voice, which is more likely to change the date of Australia day?)

Heck Warren Mundine is a reason for "the voice"
Appointed to an Indigenous council by Tony Abbott, then council is dissolved by Malcolm Turnbull 4 years later. Do people get that this is what the issue is about.

Aboriginal council is created, Aboriginal people are picked for that council, sometimes elected (ATSIC) usually appointed. Council says stuff government of the day dislikes. Council is disbanded. New council is formed and a new round of "enquiries" is held, which find the same things as the "enquiries" did last year, and the year before that... and the decade before that....

Voting No won't change this stupid cycle above.
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ATSIC and previous councils were disbanded due to ingrained corruption and appalling behaviour. Using your logic above (not mine), voting YES will enshrine that within the Constitution. Sounds good?

You do realise that under the proposed Voice, the government can appoint and sack members of the Voice? They couldnt with ATSIC.
 
earl said:
He is a little bit all over the place and not making a coherent argument. Why does voting no lead to a treaty happening more quickly ? What reasons are there to vote no apart from getting to a treaty more quickly ? If Indigenous people are doing well why do we have the closing the gap idea being agreed to from all sides of politics ?

The thing is when he says we have to stop the hand-out mentality that appeals to a lot of people including myself. This to me is a discussion that needs to happen and it to me should be part of truth-telling. The reality is that you (and me) are responsible for your (our) life. I also don't see Indigenous people suffering from being a victim anymore than any group within the general population.
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Then why a Voice enshrined in the Constitution? Might I suggest you are a little bit all over the place and not making a coherent argument?
 
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