The Luai dilemma...

[Jolls]

Unfortunate for Jock, but not poor. Reshuffling all the deck chairs when we are actually going well. Needs to be kept simple and Luai comes in for Jock.

100%; the decision point is not now. The decision point will come if/when sides shut down our edge by targeting ADs - if/when our only attacking threat beomes Luai it is time to change. If AD can adapt to the pressure and maintain control he should retain the 7.

The points I am trying to make are:

1. We have options and we have competition. This is healthy.
2. If we can identify potential issues we can plan for it. Up and in defence with high inside pressure for example we could have a game plan option (short kicks), shift AD wider to provide time and space, bring Latu on as a link.
3. If control over power provides a better team outcome we should not stick to a failing couse of action.

 

[Viva_Zapata]

Honestly, Jock needs to stay 7…he plays like an old school half. We have the players with flair, but that cool head and those grass finders are a must.

How many of Jock's pinpoint kicks to our guys in the air got results on Monday? 3-4-5?

 

[stevied]

Luai straight back in.

Our attack is still struggling in my opinion. We are great off 2nd phase play due to offloads, but we are regularly camped in the opposition 20m zone for 3-4 sets in a row and not even firing a shot at the moment.

Truthfully, the game should have been put to bed with 20-25 mins to go yesterday. Parra were defending constantly, had no ball at all.

Completely agree. Lack of pitency in the red zone continues to be a problem.

 

[stevied]

Go watch the Tigers VS Cowboys highlights.... the one with our starting halves combination where we've played our best 80 minutes of football so far this season.

Madden has got a bit more to do, and our starting halves have a lot more to mess up before you'd even think about changing up AD and Luai. Jock's got plenty in his locker but he's not Cooper Cronk. We use Luai and AD as hybrid halves very similar to Hughes and Munster at the storm. Never mind the long term plan with Latu,

Just enjoy having the kind of depth a good first grade side ought to have.

Can't agree with the Cowboys game being our best. Yes the scoreline was the biggest and our forwards went well, with Luai starring off the back of it, but the Cowboys were deplorable. Overall, the Warriors win was the best for a whole lot of reasons, mainly our defense, but also for our precision in attack against a side in form. A big factor in the win was Madden's kicking but also his organisation and straight running. Douehi had a great game, as a runner/ centre not as a half.

 

[supercoach]

100% zero worries with Luai, he is first picked every week in any position he wants. Finding roles for Maden,AD and Latu might have Benji scratching his head, but injuries and suspensions over the course of a season will probably solve any problems there.

For now when everyone is fit you go with your pre season line up. That is the logical way as that is the combination that has put the hours in. Sadly it would probably force Jock or Latu back a grade

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Nailed it. Our attack was sublime against the Cows once we had worn them down after the first 20, we were able to use our fitness and skill level to dismantle them and pile on the points. We were going down the same path in all 3 games since and dominating after 20 mins, however our variety in attack was stunted. I still think that AD may get a spell for a week or two to get his groin right once Luai is back, however they will be the 6 and 7 if fit. Its a luxury we have never had having Madden, Latu as next man up and Javon starting to knock on the door.

My take on our current dilemma.
Madden the managing half stays.
Luai the 5/8. I think that could work.
Got to have Doueihi in there somewhere, so I see him as à centre OR on the bench in 14. To be our lock when called upon. In lieu of Latu. Would be fresh, harder to tackle and the desire to be in the run on side.
Latu has done nothing of note as the replacement lock position.
A luxury we have got away with sofar. But every win is so important we must have our best side and best bench to achieve that.
Latu needs to go back to Reggie's to get those kms in the legs.
Then we have our best attacking side for the second half.

 

[stevied]

100% zero worries with Luai, he is first picked every week in any position he wants. Finding roles for Maden,AD and Latu might have Benji scratching his head, but injuries and suspensions over the course of a season will probably solve any problems there.

For now when everyone is fit you go with your pre season line up. That is the logical way as that is the combination that has put the hours in. Sadly it would probably force Jock or Latu back a grade

I was going to like that comment until the last sentence! 😆

 

[GNR4LIFE]

There’s no dilemma. He comes back in at 6. Madden has been exceptional, but he’s still depth. He’ll move to the 6 man bench.

 

[EllisFan]

There is no dilemma.

Luai to #6
Doueihi to #7

They didn't just extend Doueihi 3 years in order to move him & accommodate Madden.

Madden has been good. He's the back up.

AD isn’t playing halfback and his ball playing isn’t up to scratch.

He’s doing a lot well but not out of halfback.

It’s not a dilemma but it’s a genuine discussion point.

 

[TIGERS]

Look at the Bulldogs today if you want to see what too much shuffling near the top of the ladder can do to a side just gaining momentum.

 

[mtd#2]

On current (team) form, our coach has an interesting predictament, between now and the time Luai is back.

Historically, the idea has always been to build around Jarome Luai. However, when a player is earning $1.2 million per season, influence must be immediate and visible. The club needs him to lead, to influence. They need him to deliver in moments that shape games.

His abscence (and the team success) has me thinking about how coach Marshall will view his return and inclusion into the lineup.

In a broader context, whether a star player should automatically return to the starting lineup during a winning streak is a complex coaching dilemma with no single right answer, though experts and sports psychologists often suggest that team performance and chemistry should take precedence over individual status.

There is no doubt that our coach has BEGUN the to blend a combination of effective roles, without necessarily singling out a specific player or role within the club, including his own. I dare say that we are STARTING to understand that a great team is not top down, more flat than anything. Everyone from the head coach to the last reserve on the bench has full understanding of what a winning combination looks like...from pushing the first team in practice to taking control of the game in crunch time, to making strategic and appropriate substitutions throughout. And it starts with the culture initiated by those leading the team.

Do we see Luai as part of this process OR perhaps a star in his own right but one that is foreign to this (current) constellation? If the premise of the WT sitting second on the ladder is that we are winning, and playing a good brand of football, can we exclude the Luai factor, and perhaps consider other immediate reasons such as better team dynamics and flow, better focus and responsibility amongst individual players, and perhaps a little “chip on the shoulder” mental toughness by players on the team hoping to prove critics wrong that they really can win without their star? (Twal, Doueihi come to mind). Or maybe the success witnessed with Luai out should be attributed to great coaching, as the stakes are that much more increased for the coach to make the best of a tough situation.

This is a good "problem" to have. Getting it right may well play a part in how succesful the West Tigers will be this year.

Regards to all.

Great post.

I have NFI.

One thing is for sure, the moment we lose he be back in the headlines and his decision under scrutiny.

I'm glad its not my decision to make.

 

[EllisFan]

Look at the Bulldogs today if you want to see what too much shuffling near the top of the ladder can do to a side just gaining momentum.

You could argue that Madden is doing the job Sexton was fulfilling at Canterbury and if we try to squeeze AD into that job it is a similar move to Canterbury trying to manufacture a halfback in Galvin.

 

[mtd#2]

Ok. So Doueihi to #13 to fit Luai back in, because we must keep the backup #7 in obviously.

That moves Twal to prop?

Then we have a Pole/Hunt/Seyfarth/Skelton/To'a/May/Lualili'i/Tavana/Luai dilemma.

Personally, I'm amazed Benji can sleep at night.

I cant get behind Douhei at #13.

May, Pole and Twal take dirty hit ups. Douhei isnt that type of player.

So it will impact our go forward in the first 25 mins.

Then it stuffs up the Sione and Royce rotation- which appears to be a significant factor in us scoring points late in the first half.

I dont remember our forwards being this good, ever!

Latu stays at #14, thats his spot.

The only way this works is if Jock goes to the bench or we push Douhei to centres. And I dont like either of those options

To your point. Good luck benji.

 

[EllisFan]

I cant get behind Douhei at #13.

May, Pole and Twal take dirty hit ups. Douhei isnt that type of player.

So it will impact our go forward in the first 25 mins.

Then it stuffs up the Sione and Royce rotation- which appears to be a significant factor in us scoring points late in the first half.

I dont remember our forwards being this good, ever!

Latu stays at #14, thats his spot.

The only way this works is if Jock goes to the bench or we push Douhei to centres. And I dont like either of those options

To your point. Good luck benji.

1 Bula
2 Makasini
3 May
4 AD
5 Turuva / Tavana
6 Luai
7 Madden
8 May
9 Api
10 Pole
11 Samuela
12 KPP
13 Twal

14 Latu
15 Hunt
16 Sione
17 Seyfarth

I think that’s our best 17 hands down at the moment. A lot of in-form players and AD will enjoy running in the space Madden and Luai can create. Hopefully we get to see them all on the pitch shortly.

 

[EllisFan]

I hate douhei to centres, but its the only way to fit them all in.

I wonder if madden to #7 allows Luai to take his game to another level

I don’t think Luai needs the long kicking game responsibility.

With Jock doing that and playing straight, there’s really no excuses for Luai, I think his form would have to peak.

 

[stevied]

AD isn’t playing halfback and his ball playing isn’t up to scratch.

He’s doing a lot well but not out of halfback.

It’s not a dilemma but it’s a genuine discussion point.

Correct. Correct. Correct.

 

[Merlot]

Team is bubbling away nicely for what it is Only see AD as Reggie Captain or as a fill in next year

 

[crazycat]

Look at the Bulldogs today if you want to see what too much shuffling near the top of the ladder can do to a side just gaining momentum.

But it's different shuffling.

Luai is our known signing. Jock and AD resigned here knowing Luai is here.

Contrast that with the dogs punting Sexton and other players. I mean imagine knowing Toby Sexton and seeing him pour his heart into the role week in week out. then seeing him punted for Galvin and your side starts loosing most games. ...

Madden has been a reserve grader in Brisbane. He knows he will get a first grade shot here and he is taking it with both arms. He is our reserve halfback, he knows it and the team knows it.

It's just he is playing way above that role.

 

[Lestronge]

lol this thread is dumb. The halves will be luai and AD . Madden has a great kicking game . No running game , and no penetration . Also he’s a target in defence . He is the perfect back up half , only because we can move AD to his more natural five eighth spot . He’s absolutely the perfect squad guy . And ultimately Latu will get the reps in front of him .
He’ll drop back down to KOE cup . Get those boys going , come up for the odd cameo / injury replacement , and will be a key part of this team if it has real intentions of making a dent in the nrl season . He will not be starting over AD nor would he be starting over Latu . But he’s a hell of a player , and apparently a great bloke . A plus recruitment .

 

[Jolls]

I hate douhei to centres, but its the only way to fit them all in.

I wonder if madden to #7 allows Luai to take his game to another level

That is the question that should have been explored during the trials - isn't that what they are for?

We can't be sure that the combination will be better than AD and Luai until we throw it out on the park. I understand Benji's desire to stick with a winning combination given the off season effort put into AD at 7 so there is a strong case to perservere with it. There will come a time when AD is out, so Jock will get an opportunity to state his case.

Unfortunatley, the cracks in AD's skill set as a 6/7 are already on show. His passing game is below average for the positions and despite hearing so much about his high footy IQ we haven't seen too much of it on display.

If his footy IQ is so high I do not understand how his edge gets choked under defensive pressure when he is at 6 or 7. A high IQ player uses the momentum of the defence to overcome the situation: shift quickly to the edges (quick hands); kick in behind the line to counter the threat and keep them honest; pass short or over the top; vary depth to create time and space and a bigger gap behind their defensive line to provide even more kick space; or use decoy runners and pass around them to fix the defender and create the gap. That is just off the top of my head and is not the limit of how that style of defence can be overcome. I know that is very easy to write and more difficult to do; but that is for a team that plays systems - we aren't that type of team.

Benji talks about game plan and patience - so there is an argument that AD is trusting the plan. But, Benii is even bigger on players "expressing themselves". This means using their brain and making opportunities just as much as it means taking them as they present. Is Jock able to overcome this pressure better? I guess we need to wait and see given how we are travelling.

But for me the AD to 13 should have been bedded in over the off season and a change there could well disrupt a forward pack that is firing on all cylinders.

I am not saying that Jock is a better all round player than AD - just that they are very different players. Should Jock prove to be better for the team at 7 than AD is when combined with Luai a move to cente is probably the best risk/reward situation for the team.