The Luai dilemma...

It’s a tough sample box as we’ve seen limited games of combos so far and AD/Luai and AD/Madden have both shown positives. One thing is certain is our inside 20 attack needs a lot of work.

I feel a bit like Madden or AD are a bad game away from supporters wanting a constant chop and change.

I personally think AD has been at his best when he’s in the middle of the field picking off tired defenders with his forwards. He’s also had a bit of joy on a sweep play with a few line breaks. He likes being the guy in charge.

Where I think he falls short is he has that run first mentality and has missed a few opportunities of shifting early ball to the outside backs. A few times he’s drawn defenders and should’ve passed to his wing unmarked. Hamstring is obviously still an issue as he’s handed off the kicking and not utilising his bombs or big boot for long range kicks.

Madden - in his 2 starting games has really helped direct the play well and his long kicking game has been effective. Seems to have matured as a player, but the question mark is will he improve, take the opportunity for a first grade career or regress to a state cup level. One thing he has proven, is that he is a very capable backup so far.

Luai - back to running, ad-lib. Short kicking game will improve us. He’s our 5/8 and leader. Brings so much confidence to our side. He can’t be left out.

I think AD needs to play like a 7, but as a roving 13. Manage the forwards in the middle and act as a link man between Madden and Luai, whilst still being able to roam.. He plays with tempo, attacks defenders and will go to the line. He’s the only one big enough to handle the forwards and defensively he’s improved. Has a bit of Yeo about his game.

Twal can still continue doing what he’s doing at prop.

Latu on the bench at 14 and can come on to give Api and AD breaks. Provides halves cover too. Api seriously struggles with 80mins.

Makasini to the wing for now to simplify his game.

Tavana has been solid, but I think we need Skelton out there this year. Just offers a bit more grunt returning the ball.

My side once all are healthy.

1. Bula
2. Makasini (for now)
3. May
4. Turuva
5. Skelton
6. Luai
7. Madden
8. May
9. Api
10. Twal
11. Samuela Fainu
12. KPP
13. AD

14. Latu Fainu
15. Fonua Pole
16. Sione Fainu
17. Royce Hunt
18. Bunty Afoa/Seyfarth (alternate in Cup)
19. Tavana/LL (alternate in Cup)
 
Last edited:
The Chad said:
We are so unaccustomed to doing well we need to find a problem getting our star player back..

Getting Luai back will be great. Nobody talks about the dilemma of Taylan May coming back & having to decide on a winger to miss out.
Click to expand...
As good as we're going the team is not at it's best in the outside backs, if everyone was available at this moment I'd have Maka and Turuva on the wings, May and Herbet in the centres, Toa needs some Ks in his legs in reserves.
 
Rock Hopper Steve said:
As good as we're going the team is not at it's best in the outside backs, if everyone was available at this moment I'd have Maka and Turuva on the wings, May and Herbet in the centres, Toa needs some Ks in his legs in reserves.
Click to expand...
Ok. So Doueihi to #13 to fit Luai back in, because we must keep the backup #7 in obviously.

That moves Twal to prop?

Then we have a Pole/Hunt/Seyfarth/Skelton/To'a/May/Lualili'i/Tavana/Luai dilemma.

Personally, I'm amazed Benji can sleep at night.
 
Go watch the Tigers VS Cowboys highlights.... the one with our starting halves combination where we've played our best 80 minutes of football so far this season.

Madden has got a bit more to do, and our starting halves have a lot more to mess up before you'd even think about changing up AD and Luai. Jock's got plenty in his locker but he's not Cooper Cronk. We use Luai and AD as hybrid halves very similar to Hughes and Munster at the storm. Never mind the long term plan with Latu,

Just enjoy having the kind of depth a good first grade side ought to have.
 
Luai will be back in the 6. He's our captain. Also don't discount the value of having a left footed kicker on the left.

Madden is a better 7 than Doueihi but Doueihi is a better overall player than Madden.

I think if our backline is at full strength, Madden is a better option at 7 because we have more points in us when May and To'a are in the centres as they're both able to create and put their outside man away better.

However, as we're currently set-up, I think Doueihi being the more creative player and ball runner, offers us that extra bit of spark we miss with our strike backs being out.

Doueihi also would offer more off the bench than Madden. He would be a better option than Seyfarth for the last 15-20 of the game. Having a two lock set-up with both Latu and Doueihi could be super effective as the game completely opens up.
 
The Chad said:
We are so unaccustomed to doing well we need to find a problem getting our star player back..

Getting Luai back will be great. Nobody talks about the dilemma of Taylan May coming back & having to decide on a winger to miss out.
Click to expand...
The reason being that AD is choking our attack. He has a great running game, and no one is arguing against that. I dug deep into this as a deep dive prior to the season (here) and the question that still needs to be answered is: What is the root cause of our inconsistency — lack of power, or lack of control?
When we played the Cows we were facing a team that does not defend well in the halves and on the edges and AD had time and space to operate and he did an excellent job. He was able to create from 7 and provide for his outside backs. However, if we look at the gaem critically, we left a lot of points out there because he ran too much and strangled the right edge a fair bit.

If we look at the Souths game theor up and in defence stifled his attack. He did not have the same leeway provided by the Cows and he was restricted - and this restricted our attack across the board. He continued to step back inside due to the outside corridor being shut down. He was still effective due to his strength - but the blueprint for how to shut our attack down was on show for all to see.

You could argue that with May and Toa out we lack power in the backline and with Romey out we lack spark so AD is a must start at 7 (or 6 where he is currently playing). Certainly the performance against the Wahs supports that perspective. However, in that game three things stood out: he was provided time and space through Madden digging deep into the line and getting the ball out in front of him; he is not an explosive runner and time and space is a key enabler for him; and his long passing left to right is poor.

Against Parra he was well contained by the up and in defence and his time and space was limited (similar to Souths). He was most effective when provided with the space by KPP and Madden was able to control us around the park well. His kicking game is pretty accurate and our attack really benefits from hi straightening us up; whereas AD and Romey are both quite lateral with the ball in hand - AD especially when the inside pressure is high - Romey because he is all over the shop. He also again demonstrated that his passing game is not that of a half - too many over the sideline or on the ground efforts.

So let's go back to the question that we were left with at the end of the deep dive: What is the root cause of our inconsistency — lack of power, or lack of control? We have a small sample size but let's look at it to see what can be unpacked.

We have had AD's power available for our first four games, and he has certaily made a difference - but that difference has also stifled our attack. When provided with time and space he can be an effective 6, and we already knew that from our previous experience with him there. It is also true, at the same time, that he does not cope will with defensive pressure.

His effectivness was demonstrated against the Wahs when Madden provided him the space and against Parra when he shifted his attack to outside KPP. Souths and Parra both demonstrated that his game is adversely affected by defensive pressure and this results in not only his running game being affected - but the strangulation of his outside men.

This demonstrates, to me, that what control is the key to unlocking our attacking potential. Sure we lack a bit of power due to injuries - but that will not last the season and our backups are doing a reasonable job. AD definitely has a spot in the team - but, despite his football IQ, I think him playing at 7 is detrimental to our attack.

The dilemma for Benji is that he made a choice in the pre-season not to work on AD as a hybrid 13 and focus on him soley as a half - so can we successfully do a mid season transition without affecting our attacking style?

It is not a problem for this very moment as we are scraping by; however, Souths have demonstrated how to strangle us out of the game, and Parra did a reasonable job on AD as well. The blueprint for how to shut AD down at 7(6) is out there - can he adapt? Time will tell.

For mine, we will be a better team in attack when we have better control. AD still wearing 7 probably indicates in Benji's mindset though.
 
Jolls said:
The reason being that AD is choking our attack. He has a great running game, and no one is arguing against that. I dug deep into this as a deep dive prior to the season (here) and the question that still needs to be answered is: What is the root cause of our inconsistency — lack of power, or lack of control?
When we played the Cows we were facing a team that does not defend well in the halves and on the edges and AD had time and space to operate and he did an excellent job. He was able to create from 7 and provide for his outside backs. However, if we look at the gaem critically, we left a lot of points out there because he ran too much and strangled the right edge a fair bit.

If we look at the Souths game theor up and in defence stifled his attack. He did not have the same leeway provided by the Cows and he was restricted - and this restricted our attack across the board. He continued to step back inside due to the outside corridor being shut down. He was still effective due to his strength - but the blueprint for how to shut our attack down was on show for all to see.

You could argue that with May and Toa out we lack power in the backline and with Romey out we lack spark so AD is a must start at 7 (or 6 where he is currently playing). Certainly the performance against the Wahs supports that perspective. However, in that game three things stood out: he was provided time and space through Madden digging deep into the line and getting the ball out in front of him; he is not an explosive runner and time and space is a key enabler for him; and his long passing left to right is poor.

Against Parra he was well contained by the up and in defence and his time and space was limited (similar to Souths). He was most effective when provided with the space by KPP and Madden was able to control us around the park well. His kicking game is pretty accurate and our attack really benefits from hi straightening us up; whereas AD and Romey are both quite lateral with the ball in hand - AD especially when the inside pressure is high - Romey because he is all over the shop. He also again demonstrated that his passing game is not that of a half - too many over the sideline or on the ground efforts.

So let's go back to the question that we were left with at the end of the deep dive: What is the root cause of our inconsistency — lack of power, or lack of control? We have a small sample size but let's look at it to see what can be unpacked.

We have had AD's power available for our first four games, and he has certaily made a difference - but that difference has also stifled our attack. When provided with time and space he can be an effective 6, and we already knew that from our previous experience with him there. It is also true, at the same time, that he does not cope will with defensive pressure.

His effectivness was demonstrated against the Wahs when Madden provided him the space and against Parra when he shifted his attack to outside KPP. Souths and Parra both demonstrated that his game is adversely affected by defensive pressure and this results in not only his running game being affected - but the strangulation of his outside men.

This demonstrates, to me, that what control is the key to unlocking our attacking potential. Sure we lack a bit of power due to injuries - but that will not last the season and our backups are doing a reasonable job. AD definitely has a spot in the team - but, despite his football IQ, I think him playing at 7 is detrimental to our attack.

The dilemma for Benji is that he made a choice in the pre-season not to work on AD as a hybrid 13 and focus on him soley as a half - so can we successfully do a mid season transition without affecting our attacking style?

It is not a problem for this very moment as we are scraping by; however, Souths have demonstrated how to strangle us out of the game, and Parra did a reasonable job on AD as well. The blueprint for how to shut AD down at 7(6) is out there - can he adapt? Time will tell.

For mine, we will be a better team in attack when we have better control. AD still wearing 7 probably indicates in Benji's mindset though.
Click to expand...
High quality post. Thank you!

Another dimension to consider is the third tackle run of Hunt. In an average set Hunt has made a couple of cracking runs to get over the advantage line and get a reasonably quick play the ball. It has relieved pressure on our halves ability to damage a defensive line.

The same has been happening with Twals runs + offload, and Terrell’s offload.

Having these forward plays deliberately working and halves expecting them sets up a lot of what you are observing above. Madden can dig into the line more to capitalise on the extra time, in turn preventing the early defensive slide / cover defence. Likewise AD can also run at the line more effectively.

My opinion is we are seeing the outcome of our halves having two seconds more time on the fourth tackle than they previously had.

The optimist in me says we are seeing team cohesion and players knowing their roles, when to play them and being ready when others around them execute the plan. If this is true then we have a lot to be excited about.

This also explains why our attack struggles in the red zone. We can’t get the same two extra seconds for our halves.
 
Mccarry said:
High quality post. Thank you!

Another dimension to consider is the third tackle run of Hunt. In an average set Hunt has made a couple of cracking runs to get over the advantage line and get a reasonably quick play the ball. It has relieved pressure on our halves ability to damage a defensive line.

The same has been happening with Twals runs + offload, and Terrell’s offload.

Having these forward plays deliberately working and halves expecting them sets up a lot of what you are observing above. Madden can dig into the line more to capitalise on the extra time, in turn preventing the early defensive slide / cover defence. Likewise AD can also run at the line more effectively.

My opinion is we are seeing the outcome of our halves having two seconds more time on the fourth tackle than they previously had.

The optimist in me says we are seeing team cohesion and players knowing their roles, when to play them and being ready when others around them execute the plan. If this is true then we have a lot to be excited about.

This also explains why our attack struggles in the red zone. We can’t get the same two extra seconds for our halves.
Click to expand...
Great points, and I'm sure the slow ptb in the red zone is a factor. For mine at the moment we are missing the expereince of Toa and May abd their ability to create in compressed defence. Maka doesn't have it yet and Taruva is a but like a rabbit - he needs to make a decision and pin the ears back.

We are gettign there but we haven't really capitalised on our edges yet - AD outside of of KPP and Bula running the inside line off him at the same time could be such a weapon. I also think we just haven't quite got our lines right yet - we have players poking their noses through but just not getting there. Makasini or Pole with footwaok back agaisnt the grain are things I would like to see added to our attack as well.
 
Haha, Luai is what we needed against the Eels - their defence was rushing up and Luai would have been putting a kick in behind them to make them second guess.

It's hard to judge Doueihi - with Madden in the team he's playing the role of a 6. With Luai back, Doueihi will go back to playing the 7, kicking and controlling.

I would argue that maybe when we don't have Taylan May and Toa fit that Madden is a better option as his last tackle kicking is slightly better, we don't have as much strike without our starting centres, therefore rely more on scoring off kicks, but at full strength there's no doubt in my mind that Doueihi and Luai are right combination. Doueihi's run threat creates space for outside men, and when he does actually run he's big and strong / hard to stop. Madden straightens well but I don't see his running game as much of a threat. Doueihi is a genuine triple-threat when he has strike outside him.
 
TIGERS said:
Go watch the Tigers VS Cowboys highlights.... the one with our starting halves combination where we've played our best 80 minutes of football so far this season.

Madden has got a bit more to do, and our starting halves have a lot more to mess up before you'd even think about changing up AD and Luai. Jock's got plenty in his locker but he's not Cooper Cronk. We use Luai and AD as hybrid halves very similar to Hughes and Munster at the storm. Never mind the long term plan with Latu,

Just enjoy having the kind of depth a good first grade side ought to have.
Click to expand...
Nailed it. Our attack was sublime against the Cows once we had worn them down after the first 20, we were able to use our fitness and skill level to dismantle them and pile on the points. We were going down the same path in all 3 games since and dominating after 20 mins, however our variety in attack was stunted. I still think that AD may get a spell for a week or two to get his groin right once Luai is back, however they will be the 6 and 7 if fit. Its a luxury we have never had having Madden, Latu as next man up and Javon starting to knock on the door.
 
Jolls said:
Great points, and I'm sure the slow ptb in the red zone is a factor. For mine at the moment we are missing the expereince of Toa and May abd their ability to create in compressed defence. Maka doesn't have it yet and Taruva is a but like a rabbit - he needs to make a decision and pin the ears back.

We are gettign there but we haven't really capitalised on our edges yet - AD outside of of KPP and Bula running the inside line off him at the same time could be such a weapon. I also think we just haven't quite got our lines right yet - we have players poking their noses through but just not getting there. Makasini or Pole with footwaok back agaisnt the grain are things I would like to see added to our attack as well.
Click to expand...
Yeah May/To’a will make a world of difference. Turuva is doing an admirable job in the centres and is effort on everything but we need our strike back on our edges.
 
Bigscreentv said:
Haha, Luai is what we needed against the Eels - their defence was rushing up and Luai would have been putting a kick in behind them to make them second guess.

It's hard to judge Doueihi - with Madden in the team he's playing the role of a 6. With Luai back, Doueihi will go back to playing the 7, kicking and controlling.

I would argue that maybe when we don't have Taylan May and Toa fit that Madden is a better option as his last tackle kicking is slightly better, we don't have as much strike without our starting centres, therefore rely more on scoring off kicks, but at full strength there's no doubt in my mind that Doueihi and Luai are right combination. Doueihi's run threat creates space for outside men, and when he does actually run he's big and strong / hard to stop. Madden straightens well but I don't see his running game as much of a threat. Doueihi is a genuine triple-threat when he has strike outside him.
Click to expand...
I agree to an extent and think we need a bigger sample size before throwing out the current setup as we have invested so much into AD as a 7. If teams are able to follow the Souths example and shut down our edge by simply cutting down AD's time and space the 7 experiment is over for mine and we need to create space by bringing Jock in.
 
Unfortunate for Jock, but not point reshuffling all the deck chairs when we are actually going well. Needs to be kept simple and Luai comes in for Jock.
 
Last edited:
Jolls said:
I agree to an extent and think we need a bigger sample size before throwing out the current setup as we have invested so much into AD as a 7. If teams are able to follow the Souths example and shut down our edge by simply cutting down AD's time and space the 7 experiment is over for mine and we need to create space by bringing Jock in.
Click to expand...
Well, I also doubt we concede the first two tries the way we did if May playing centre against Souths, so it's hard to know.

Agree, we need to see more, but I also think the more Luai and Doueihi play together, the better they will get. Still very early in the season. I guess we haven't seen Jock and Luai together either, so that might take it to another level.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Members online

Total: 493 (members: 4, guests: 489)
Back
Top