Andrew Johns protest over Pole sinbin

Iv no doubt your spot on, someone I saw made a great point I think on 360 funny enough, can't remember which journo, to paraphrase they said the issues and legal issues the N.F.L had to deal with won't affect the N.R.L, they were saying that the N.F.L had the data about CTE and other brain trauma and kept it locked away, where the N.R.L were totally open and transparent with the whole thing. Someone on the forum also made a great point that the players are consenting adults and know the risks. If a player is willing to put their safety on the line to play a sport, mind you that they are mostly well paid to perform, then who is any doctor, lawyer or N.R.L governing body to say no. As long as their of sound mind, they're adults. They said and I totally agree, all juniors by their parents and part of every registered N.R.L contract as an adult should have a stipulation they understand the risks, have a list of issues head trauma, other injuries that may or may not be lifelong, that they know and understand the risks and by signing the contract will not hold the N.R.L liable for any injury or life long illness incurred through their time playing, whilst uncontracted at a club or in retirement. Make it iron clad, it's the only way to fix it. The N.R.L are petrified of the lawyers so they've brought in doctors to help to protect them in a way legally, but the doctors know medicine with no concept of playing an extremely fast sport with massive bodies having huge collisions. By bringing in doctors they're objective is to protect the players, left alone the doctors will just turn it in to Oz tag to meet they're objective because they're objective has no context within the game. I just think that all players from juniors right through should be made to sign iron clad legal documents that accept the risk and won't hold the game or clubs responsible obviously unless of gross negligence, if the players are too young the parents can. Then we can finally bugger the doctors and lawyers off and the game can just be the game again.
A couple things. As it stands you can not sign away your rights to a safe workplace. No waiver can possibly be ironclad and making one would actually open the NRL up to lawsuits as they are admitting the workplace is not safe.
The comparison to NFL is valid however and the knowing the risks argument exists however it would really come down to how well argued the point was on both sides. As the game is a workplace, the accepting the risks argument is different to say boxing where the boxers are essentially self employed contractors.
The phrasing of the situation by the likes of Abdo is very deliberate saying it's not a crackdown we have been penalising/sin binning high shots for decades is made to refer back to anyone considering the legal avenue now that "the NRL is only just now getting serious about CTE, it wasn't when I played".
 
Are you suggesting its safer for them to be hit directly in the head?
God no not at all. They are saying they don’t want to go down the path of union but in the fair dinkum stakes any hit above chest height is more likely to lead to concussion symptoms than a hit below the chest where the pressure is put closer to the body’s centre.
 
You make it sound like the doctors and lawyers are the bad guys.
They dont hate the sport. Both professions are risk adverse in nature and are trying to protect interests.
The doctors are also dealing with ex players from all levels in their 50's who are vegetables or are well on their way to being so. They are panicking a bit and the governing bodies are over reacting, but at the heart of it, they are the only ones who really give a shit about player wellfare.

When I came through, if you got knocked out for a few seconds, officially you were a bit dazed....but right to keep trucking on. Later that night youd tell your mates you couldnt remember large parts of the game and theyd all laugh their heads off and praise you for being a madman and as tough as nails.
Now as I approach my half century, I notice things....If I run into someone on the street I havent interracted with for a few months, I have an awkward moment as I try to remember their name. I have wild mood swings not caused by any big events. Im very quick to anger when I was traditionally methodical in assessing a situation before acting. I often choose not to be in large groups anymore as the noise drives me insane. Maybe thats just getting older, maybe its not.

I think something needs to be done. The shoulder charge was banned 12 or 13 years ago yet 3 players were found guilty of it this past weekend, all hitting an attacker in the head and all recieving 3 week bans for it...13 other players were either banned or fined for high contact in the tackle. The week before we saw a few bans and over $12K in fines for the same. The punishments arent working. Coaches and trainers dont give a shit. Clearly they dont. The NRL has to take action and make a stand. Unfortunately we the fans are who suffers as we never get to watch games with full strength teams playing each other.
Tucker I agree to a certain point because back when you were playing and these other older players now had no idea the damage that could be caused. Today though a parent or a player in general understands the risks more, in time there may be other things found, my point is that we know so much more today the players arnt running out not knowing what risks there could be. It doesn't fix the older players nothing will unfortunately all we really can do is support them and learn as much as we can from it. Today though the players are aware, get them to sign paperwork that they understand the risks and won't hold anyone responsible for any permanent damage. The doctors are needed for the past players, not to advise the governing body, as for the lawyers all they care about is cash. Thus whole mess could easily be sorted with signed contracts releasing the game from responsibility.
There will be players who end up having permanent damage once they retire, bit that's the downside of a highly intense contact sport. No one wishes it on anyone but it's bound to happen. Don't get me wrong though if someone goes out to take someone's head off in a tackle throw the book at him. I just can't see how using lawyers and doctors to advise the game on player welfare is sustainable to the game long term. They can keep doing it, eventually it will just result in a game of grab and release. We all want to see the best players going at it 100%. They're the modern day gladiators.
 
A couple things. As it stands you can not sign away your rights to a safe workplace. No waiver can possibly be ironclad and making one would actually open the NRL up to lawsuits as they are admitting the workplace is not safe.
The comparison to NFL is valid however and the knowing the risks argument exists however it would really come down to how well argued the point was on both sides. As the game is a workplace, the accepting the risks argument is different to say boxing where the boxers are essentially self employed contractors.
The phrasing of the situation by the likes of Abdo is very deliberate saying it's not a crackdown we have been penalising/sin binning high shots for decades is made to refer back to anyone considering the legal avenue now that "the NRL is only just now getting serious about CTE, it wasn't when I played".
But then what stops past players from suing the game out of existence. If the N.R.L is deemed as a workplace and provides the information, the outlines that high shots are illegal, the concussion stand down, harsh penalties on those who badly breach high tackle rules, surely the N.R.L have done enough in their duty of care. Noone is signing their rights away, they are just signing that they accept the game is not responsible for any permanent injury as a result of playing the game. A game most are well compensated for. If the N.R.L is looked at as a workplace then surely permanent injury must be seen as a possible outcome due to the nature of the workplace being a contact sport. If the N.R.L did everything to educate the players of the dangers and made it clear high shots are illegal, how could a signed document not stand up, I'm no lawyer I'm prob wrong but I figure if the N.R.L does everything it can to educate the players on the dangers and penalise those found guilty to protect players then surely they have met their responsibility in their duty of care based on the nature of the workplace.
 
Tucker I agree to a certain point because back when you were playing and these other older players now had no idea the damage that could be caused. Today though a parent or a player in general understands the risks more, in time there may be other things found, my point is that we know so much more today the players arnt running out not knowing what risks there could be. It doesn't fix the older players nothing will unfortunately all we really can do is support them and learn as much as we can from it. Today though the players are aware, get them to sign paperwork that they understand the risks and won't hold anyone responsible for any permanent damage. The doctors are needed for the past players, not to advise the governing body, as for the lawyers all they care about is cash. Thus whole mess could easily be sorted with signed contracts releasing the game from responsibility.
There will be players who end up having permanent damage once they retire, bit that's the downside of a highly intense contact sport. No one wishes it on anyone but it's bound to happen. Don't get me wrong though if someone goes out to take someone's head off in a tackle throw the book at him. I just can't see how using lawyers and doctors to advise the game on player welfare is sustainable to the game long term. They can keep doing it, eventually it will just result in a game of grab and release. We all want to see the best players going at it 100%. They're the modern day gladiators.
No one bar those coming from exceptionally poor and desperate backgrounds would sign such a document.
 
But then what stops past players from suing the game out of existence. If the N.R.L is deemed as a workplace and provides the information, the outlines that high shots are illegal, the concussion stand down, harsh penalties on those who badly breach high tackle rules, surely the N.R.L have done enough in their duty of care. Noone is signing their rights away, they are just signing that they accept the game is not responsible for any permanent injury as a result of playing the game. A game most are well compensated for. If the N.R.L is looked at as a workplace then surely permanent injury must be seen as a possible outcome due to the nature of the workplace being a contact sport. If the N.R.L did everything to educate the players of the dangers and made it clear high shots are illegal, how could a signed document not stand up, I'm no lawyer I'm prob wrong but I figure if the N.R.L does everything it can to educate the players on the dangers and penalise those found guilty to protect players then surely they have met their responsibility in their duty of care based on the nature of the workplace.
Aren’t you annoyed at all the penalties, sinbins and bans for these tackles? They are only going to increase.
 
No one bar those coming from exceptionally poor and desperate backgrounds would sign such a document.
Honestly I wouldn't allow them to play. As adults there's risk in everything we do, some more so than others if people wanted to play I'd require it to protect the game, I could be totally wrong and I'm open to changing my view on it over time, I just don't see what's wrong with requiring players to acknowledge the risks.
 
Aren’t you annoyed at all the penalties, sinbins and bans for these tackles? They are only going to increase.
100% it's ruining the game, just trying to find the right balance as to how to maintain the spirit and integrity of the game and at the same time maximise player safety. It's a real tough one Tucker, one I only admit my answer to is pretty extreme, it may be wrong but I just can't see if things left as they are will not just cause more penalties, sin bins and bans. How does it get fixed. Apart from my extreme stance iv no other idea.
 
Honestly I wouldn't allow them to play. As adults there's risk in everything we do, some more so than others if people wanted to play I'd require it to protect the game, I could be totally wrong and I'm open to changing my view on it over time, I just don't see what's wrong with requiring players to acknowledge the risks.
You’ll only get the most desperate people in the country signing that. Everyone else will play or do something else. The NRL will turn into Mandingo style entertainment, ignored by those who have better opportunities.
 
You’ll only get the most desperate people in the country signing that. Everyone else will play or do something else. The NRL will turn into Mandingo style entertainment, ignored by those who have better opportunities.
Then how is it sorted in your opinion Tucker
 
But then what stops past players from suing the game out of existence. If the N.R.L is deemed as a workplace and provides the information, the outlines that high shots are illegal, the concussion stand down, harsh penalties on those who badly breach high tackle rules, surely the N.R.L have done enough in their duty of care. Noone is signing their rights away, they are just signing that they accept the game is not responsible for any permanent injury as a result of playing the game. A game most are well compensated for. If the N.R.L is looked at as a workplace then surely permanent injury must be seen as a possible outcome due to the nature of the workplace being a contact sport. If the N.R.L did everything to educate the players of the dangers and made it clear high shots are illegal, how could a signed document not stand up, I'm no lawyer I'm prob wrong but I figure if the N.R.L does everything it can to educate the players on the dangers and penalise those found guilty to protect players then surely they have met their responsibility in their duty of care based on the nature of the workplace.
You've posed 2 different but related questions here.

What stops past players from suing the game?

Nothing and lots of things. Past players would certainly have a case if they chose to go down that path. However with most legal battles there is no guarantee of outcome (as you stated at the end of your post the NRL would argue they have held up their end of duty of care) and it would be a costly process to initiate. So first answer is cost with no guarantee of return.
Other considerations are we don't have a litigation culture in our country, players not wanting to potentially cripple the game they love or be ostracised for doing so, players recognising they made a living from the game or that they truthfully did accept the risks, Timeframe limitations in filing a case and finally you can only genuinely prove CTE after an autopsy.

Why would a signed document not stand up in court?
I'm not a lawyer either but I have read articles about it in the past. My recollection is that essentially the law comes down to negligence and no waiver rids you from that negligence. If the NRL is found negligent in protecting from concussion no waiver would save them.
Accepted risk is part of the law as well. You don't need to legally outline what an obvious risk is. So no need to have a waiver saying the players accept the obvious risk. Again there is grey area about what level of risk is deemed obvious.
So you can say there is obvious dangers but it does not absolve you of your legal responsibility to minimise these dangers, failure to do so would be criminally negligent.

The question is are/have the NRL been negligent in protecting from concussion. Lawyers on one side would point to examples such as the Tuilagi hit on May that went unpunished and say yes. The other side would point to laws of the game and sinbins and suspensions of high shots and say no.
There are further arguments on either side if you really want to delve into it such as rules leading to changed tackling techniques but this is the gist of it.
All waivers would do at this point is highlight the workplace has been unsafe for a while and become further evidence if a former player was to now sue.

Adding to the complexity of the waivers is they do need to be very specific and detailed in order to have any legal grounds and so much about concussion is still to unknown to make the waiver specific to the results of concussion.

Also are there further issues resulting from waivers? Coercion and under reporting are two concerns out forth but I'm sure there would be others.
 
You've posed 2 different but related questions here.

What stops past players from suing the game?

Nothing and lots of things. Past players would certainly have a case if they chose to go down that path. However with most legal battles there is no guarantee of outcome (as you stated at the end of your post the NRL would argue they have held up their end of duty of care) and it would be a costly process to initiate. So first answer is cost with no guarantee of return.
Other considerations are we don't have a litigation culture in our country, players not wanting to potentially cripple the game they love or be ostracised for doing so, players recognising they made a living from the game or that they truthfully did accept the risks, Timeframe limitations in filing a case and finally you can only genuinely prove CTE after an autopsy.

Why would a signed document not stand up in court?
I'm not a lawyer either but I have read articles about it in the past. My recollection is that essentially the law comes down to negligence and no waiver rids you from that negligence. If the NRL is found negligent in protecting from concussion no waiver would save them.
Accepted risk is part of the law as well. You don't need to legally outline what an obvious risk is. So no need to have a waiver saying the players accept the obvious risk. Again there is grey area about what level of risk is deemed obvious.
So you can say there is obvious dangers but it does not absolve you of your legal responsibility to minimise these dangers, failure to do so would be criminally negligent.

The question is are/have the NRL been negligent in protecting from concussion. Lawyers on one side would point to examples such as the Tuilagi hit on May that went unpunished and say yes. The other side would point to laws of the game and sinbins and suspensions of high shots and say no.
There are further arguments on either side if you really want to delve into it such as rules leading to changed tackling techniques but this is the gist of it.
All waivers would do at this point is highlight the workplace has been unsafe for a while and become further evidence if a former player was to now sue.

Adding to the complexity of the waivers is they do need to be very specific and detailed in order to have any legal grounds and so much about concussion is still to unknown to make the waiver specific to the results of concussion.

Also are there further issues resulting from waivers? Coercion and under reporting are two concerns out forth but I'm sure there would be others.
You make am amazing point about things really being grey. It's all relative like you explain one side will see it one way, the other side seeing it another. Though I wonder and you may know,are the players considered N.R.L employees or private contractors due to the contracts they sign to bind them to clubs, I wonder if there would be ramifications from how that would be viewed aswell. It's a nightmare to try to sort, to find middle ground between keeping the players safe and maintaining the physicality of the sport.
 
Then how is it sorted in your opinion Tucker
I think they literally have to revert back to historic defensive techniques. The process of standing tall and meeting the attacker face on to wrap the ball up has resulted in these tackles. Most of them are accidents but that is because the window of error is tiny. You go back a few decades and a head high was an obvious foul play except for late footwork coathangers, that were the result of a lazy arm being swung out to try and catch them.
Yes this will result in massively increased second phase play as most players these days are more skilled in the offload but that’s not a bad thing. It opens the game up and makes it more entertaining.
As for punishment whilst the transition takes place….maybe a head high is a sendoff, however you can replace the player with your 18th man?
 
I think they literally have to revert back to historic defensive techniques. The process of standing tall and meeting the attacker face on to wrap the ball up has resulted in these tackles. Most of them are accidents but that is because the window of error is tiny. You go back a few decades and a head high was an obvious foul play except for late footwork coathangers, that were the result of a lazy arm being swung out to try and catch them.
Yes this will result in massively increased second phase play as most players these days are more skilled in the offload but that’s not a bad thing. It opens the game up and makes it more entertaining.
As for punishment whilst the transition takes place….maybe a head high is a sendoff, however you can replace the player with your 18th man?
I think there’s evidence to suggest that concussions are caused more by a defensive player going low and copping a hip, knee.
 
Would not happen anywhere near the amount of times people get hit in the head now.
Agree but vast majority of head contact is incidental and wouldn’t bruise a grape. The bad ones are generally head to hip/knee, or the head clashes.

The shoulder charges are probably the ones that should be punished heavily.
 
A lot of things have changed in the ruck. 2 of the worst in terms of rewarding the defence are dominant tackles aren't a thing, and refs seem to never call held once momentum is stopped. Late offloads are exciting but when wrapping a guy up and stopping him isn't enough then you need a bloke high to stop the offload. We have to have decision makers that realise all these things are connected and actually have a plan for what the game should look like. Humans have solved much harder problems than this.

For me when they change rules or interpretations for the sake of it, no one thinks about the unintended consequences and the product suffers.
 
I think there’s evidence to suggest that concussions are caused more by a defensive player going low and copping a hip, knee.
That’s likely true but I’d wager it’s due to poor technique as it isn’t being taught and trained.
If a defender knocks themselves out, it’s their fault.
If an attacker gets knocked out, it’s isn’t usually their fault.
Therein lies the way forward. We aren’t teaching players to defend effectively so that all heads are protected.
 
I have raised this before and I think, given the current crack down, it is time to raise it again. Unless you reward players for making legs tackles nothing will change as the ball needs to be shut down. The invention of dominant tackles and other rubbish have confused the game but given that a dominat tackle is already in use it could easily be applied to a head on legs tackle. In that case if you are axed the defenders are able to hold you down that little bit longer. A tackle from behind or cover tackel from the side would still require players to release as soon as they hit the ground - if if a break has been made the advantage remains with the attackers. A simple change in interpreatation coudl have a profound effect on the preferred tackling technique and the number of high shots.

Not sure how to get the idea to those that rule the game, but a potentially simple solution to a complex problem.
 
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