Article in the Australian - WT Salary Cap Problems

[Masterton]

Zero Tackle reckons the following WT players are all off contract end of 2017-Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah, Asipeli Fine, Dallas Graham, Watson Heleta, Matthew Lodge, Mitchell Moses, Kevin Naiqama, David Nofoaluma, Tim Simona, Curtis Sironen, James Tedesco, Aaron Woods

If that's the case then why is Marina Go saying that at will take at least until the beginning 2019 for the CAP mess cleared up?

I suspect that it means it will be 2019 before ALL of the backended contracts are gone. As you say, most will be gone before then.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Zero Tackle reckons the following WT players are all off contract end of 2017-Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah, Asipeli Fine, Dallas Graham, Watson Heleta, Matthew Lodge, Mitchell Moses, Kevin Naiqama, David Nofoaluma, Tim Simona, Curtis Sironen, James Tedesco, Aaron Woods

If that's the case then why is Marina Go saying that at will take at least until the beginning 2019 for the CAP mess cleared up?

It is likely that many in the above list are on very large back ended contracts. Farah, who would likely be on the biggest WT contract would be past his prime by 2017 at which time his contract must be terminated. Lawrence who is not mentioned on the above list would be another who must go by 2017\. At least another three on the above list would also go by 2017 due to poor form injury. Surely this would clear the CAP significantly by 2017 or am I dreaming.

In reality there are other financial problems which are not being mentioned. For example how much debt is the club in due to the defunct Balmain Leagues. **How much has out of court agreed payments to an ex-coach affected WT finances**.

I always figured Brayden Lawyers represented us, so we gave them a free spot on the jumper?

 

[Masterton]

The other thing I find disturbing is why Go chose to publish her thoughts in The Australian , a paper that few if any league followers would read. Seems the pressure is getting to her and as Chair that is not a good sign.

_Posted using RoarFEED Android 1.2.4_

Firstly - I am a League supporter, tigers supporter and read the Australian. It has league news every day
Secondly and more importantly her husband works for The Australian - so she would know and trust the people at the paper so it makes sense

However feel free to go clutching at straws to work in with your conspiracy theories

I read the Australian also. What, am I supposed to read the Tele because I like the footy? The Australian league coverage is more in-depth & less full of rumour-mongering and cheap shots.

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

Our young halves as a pair would be worth every cent of what we paid to retain them. Simply we have not see the best of them even at this young age due to a combination of the style of football they are being asked to play and the lack of experience around them.

We'l agree to disagree on that one.they may have been seen as worth the amount to us as according to the club that was Our only choice.

0ther clubs won't be prepared to give a gaurantee of another year to come good, and they won't be valued through a veil of familiarity and hope. But judged on results , which, no matter how many red herrings are used, are at least disappointing, forget lower grades, they play First grade. Now
Either way I don't think that we have to get jumpy about losing them,
It's the other guys that worry me

 

[innsaneink]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. **If you can get an opportunity _and the right money,_ you will play almost anywhere.** Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

You are wrong.
The right money here, and at other clubs varies greatly, its why we are always paying overs

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. **If you can get an opportunity _and the right money,_ you will play almost anywhere.** Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

You are wrong.
The right money here, and at other clubs varies greatly, its why we are always paying overs

You're right Ink
that's exactly what we are most likely to have to do to get anyone to sign , or re sign.
Pay Overs. And the whole circle starts all over again.

 

[MightyMaggy]

So the way I see it things are pretty bleak. Another two years of having a team on struggle street will translate into a lot of things

1–--The players are going to be really down and those who can walk will probably walk after possible three years at the bottom

2---Memberships and attracting new supporters to our club will be at a all time low, people love winners and except for a small core of diehard supporters like us the rest are very very fickle and once you lose them it takes a miracle to get them back

3---Your revenue streams dry up due to lack of memberships,merchandising and sponsorships, once again people like winners

4---If we ever do come out of the hole, attracting new players becomes near impossible as you have to pay way over the odds to get a player to come to a team near the bottom and lets face it the marquee players usually stay put or move to a top club, its only the next level down that you may get lucky with.

5-- Attracting a top line coach is impossible because they will not risk their reputation on club that can afford a decent roster

6--Constant losing will create a negative vibe right through the club.
\
\
Anyway not trying to the master of doom but I think we are in big trouble and I still think the club thinks that the likes of Brooks,Moses and Siro will carry us through these bad times and will will steadily improve till 2017, and than be in a position to recruit, but on what I have seen this year that will not happen without surrounding them with some new quality players.

Of course the other question you must ask is, are we being soften up for something bigger, like a relocation or another merger. Its hard to have much faith in anything that comes out the club these days as it is always negative (bit like my posts!!!!)

Wasn't this where South Sydney were a few years ago? Didn't they dig themselves out of the hole? It took them some years to get the improvement needed to move up the ladder. Why can't Wests Tigers do the same thing?

 

[GNR4LIFE]

So the way I see it things are pretty bleak. Another two years of having a team on struggle street will translate into a lot of things

1–--The players are going to be really down and those who can walk will probably walk after possible three years at the bottom

2---Memberships and attracting new supporters to our club will be at a all time low, people love winners and except for a small core of diehard supporters like us the rest are very very fickle and once you lose them it takes a miracle to get them back

3---Your revenue streams dry up due to lack of memberships,merchandising and sponsorships, once again people like winners

4---If we ever do come out of the hole, attracting new players becomes near impossible as you have to pay way over the odds to get a player to come to a team near the bottom and lets face it the marquee players usually stay put or move to a top club, its only the next level down that you may get lucky with.

5-- Attracting a top line coach is impossible because they will not risk their reputation on club that can afford a decent roster

6--Constant losing will create a negative vibe right through the club.
\
\
Anyway not trying to the master of doom but I think we are in big trouble and I still think the club thinks that the likes of Brooks,Moses and Siro will carry us through these bad times and will will steadily improve till 2017, and than be in a position to recruit, but on what I have seen this year that will not happen without surrounding them with some new quality players.

Of course the other question you must ask is, are we being soften up for something bigger, like a relocation or another merger. Its hard to have much faith in anything that comes out the club these days as it is always negative (bit like my posts!!!!)

Wasn't this where South Sydney were a few years ago? Didn't they dig themselves out of the hole? It took them some years to get the improvement needed to move up the ladder. Why can't Wests Tigers do the same thing?

Souths had 2 millionaires backing them. We don't.

 

[PYMBLEPETE]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. **If you can get an opportunity _and the right money,_ you will play almost anywhere.** Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

You are wrong.
The right money here, and at other clubs varies greatly, its why we are always paying overs

We are not always paying overs - unless you do not believe some of our players who have stated they have taken less than market to stay a Tiger(Benji, Tedesco for example).

 

[stevetiger]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. **If you can get an opportunity _and the right money,_ you will play almost anywhere.** Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

You are wrong.
The right money here, and at other clubs varies greatly, its why we are always paying overs

The thing is we don't have to pay overs and we should simply not do it. Fair enough do it for a single year so long as that single year isn't in the future but don't it regularly.

We can get quality players on market rates. Taupua and Ellis are both good examples. We can also keep our players on market rates. I don't believe that we are paying Tedesco as much as he could get elsewhere.

If we simply pay fair wages we will be fine.

I'm more concerned about how much we are paying Woods and Robbie if anything.

We are not always paying overs - unless you do not believe some of our players who have stated they have taken less than market to stay a Tiger(Benji, Tedesco for example).

Exactly.

 

[jirskyr]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. **If you can get an opportunity _and the right money,_ you will play almost anywhere.** Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

You are wrong.
The right money here, and at other clubs varies greatly, its why we are always paying overs

I didn't say value for money will be the same at all clubs, I said for the right money you will play almost anywhere. Of course what the "right" money is depends on the situation.

But I'd argue there is a dollar value for almost any given player, at which playing for a given club will be worthwhile.

Whether or not we are paying overs for players, nobody can say for sure unless we publish salaries. Value is always relative, just ask the housing market.

 

[jirskyr]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. If you can get an opportunity and the right money, you will play almost anywhere. Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

Haha you think results don't matter to players? Is that why teams like Parra and the Raiders in recent seasons have attempted to go on spending sprees with millions and ended up attracting no one?

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said players won't leave clubs simply because they don't win enough games. Otherwise how do the under-performing teams ever sign any players or retain their roster?

You keep making this comment that Marty Taupau will leave because we don't win, that Woods would leave also if given the chance. By your argument, we will struggle to field any good players in the next few years unless we are more successful on-field.

As for referencing Parra and Raiders recruitment, well that is a fool comment, because there is a 10-page thread going on right now about how lucky Raiders are to have signed Blake Austin from us. Raiders have also recently signed FPN, Waqa, Sezer, Leilua. Eels have recently signed Foran (to be confirmed), Beau Scott, Gordon, Watmough, Norman, Hopoate. You reckon none of these players would get a look-in at the Tigers?

 

[balmain boy]

We do have to pay overs most of the time. If we offer a player the same amount as Manly, the Dogs, Dragon etc, who would they choose? Not us. No chance! If we offered 100k more than other clubs then they might come. That's the norm. Existing players at the club might take less if their heart is with the club. Dogs were paying half of Taupau's contract at first. He's not on much as he was a nobody when he came here.

Why on earth are people talking about 2019? What's that got to do with anything? We have no-one contracted for 2018! There'll be signings in 2017, probably not big names though. But there just won't be many/any for 2016, if there are some they'll be fringe players like a Taupau.

 

[Newtown]

We do have to pay overs most of the time. If we offer a player the same amount as Manly, the Dogs, Dragon etc, who would they choose? Not us. No chance! If we offered 100k more than other clubs then they might come. That's the norm. Existing players at the club might take less if their heart is with the club. Dogs were paying half of Taupau's contract at first. He's not on much as he was a nobody when he came here.

Why on earth are people talking about 2019? What's that got to do with anything? We have no-one contracted for 2018! There'll be signings in 2017, probably not big names though. But there just won't be many/any for 2016, if there are some they'll be fringe players like a Taupau.

I agree. 2017 is looking like a good year to start rolling with new signings and these signings continuing into 2018\. Especially if our young players improve and put in substantially better team efforts throughout 2016.

 

[sideline_eye]

Zero Tackle reckons the following WT players are all off contract end of 2017-Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah, Asipeli Fine, Dallas Graham, Watson Heleta, Matthew Lodge, Mitchell Moses, Kevin Naiqama, David Nofoaluma, Tim Simona, Curtis Sironen, James Tedesco, Aaron Woods

If that's the case then why is Marina Go saying that at will take at least until the beginning 2019 for the CAP mess cleared up?

It is likely that many in the above list are on very large back ended contracts. Farah, who would likely be on the biggest WT contract would be past his prime by 2017 at which time his contract must be terminated. Lawrence who is not mentioned on the above list would be another who must go by 2017\. At least another three on the above list would also go by 2017 due to poor form injury. Surely this would clear the CAP significantly by 2017 or am I dreaming.

In reality there are other financial problems which are not being mentioned. For example how much debt is the club in due to the defunct Balmain Leagues. How much has out of court agreed payments to an ex-coach affected WT finances.

The club is in no debt due to the defunct Balmain Leagues Club. Balmain are in debt due to this and the NRL have paid their dues to the joint venture. If Balmain can't repay this debt next year (?), they will be completely broke and most likely not have anything to do with the Wests Tigers from then on. Where we get the money that was supposed to be contributed by Balmain if this scenario plays out, is difficult to see. Will Wests stump up double their contribution without a majority say on the board? Unlikely. Will the NRL keep putting cash into the Wests Tigers with no real prospect of it being repaid? I don't know but I doubt it.

Perhaps this is what Marina refers to when she says that next year's finances look so dire. I feel that there is more to worry about than which players we can afford to keep or buy.

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

So the way I see it things are pretty bleak. Another two years of having a team on struggle street will translate into a lot of things

1–--The players are going to be really down and those who can walk will probably walk after possible three years at the bottom

2---Memberships and attracting new supporters to our club will be at a all time low, people love winners and except for a small core of diehard supporters like us the rest are very very fickle and once you lose them it takes a miracle to get them back

3---Your revenue streams dry up due to lack of memberships,merchandising and sponsorships, once again people like winners

4---If we ever do come out of the hole, attracting new players becomes near impossible as you have to pay way over the odds to get a player to come to a team near the bottom and lets face it the marquee players usually stay put or move to a top club, its only the next level down that you may get lucky with.

5-- Attracting a top line coach is impossible because they will not risk their reputation on club that can afford a decent roster

6--Constant losing will create a negative vibe right through the club.
\
\
Anyway not trying to the master of doom but I think we are in big trouble and I still think the club thinks that the likes of Brooks,Moses and Siro will carry us through these bad times and will will steadily improve till 2017, and than be in a position to recruit, but on what I have seen this year that will not happen without surrounding them with some new quality players.

Of course the other question you must ask is, are we being soften up for something bigger, like a relocation or another merger. Its hard to have much faith in anything that comes out the club these days as it is always negative (bit like my posts!!!!)

Wasn't this where South Sydney were a few years ago? Didn't they dig themselves out of the hole? It took them some years to get the improvement needed to move up the ladder. Why can't Wests Tigers do the same thing?

Because we don't have a Hollywood star and a and a billionaire with deep pockets to throw money and glitz at whoever we want, whether it is above board or in back door deals,
Also because they didn't have the NRL running their club , with possibly a different agenda than the clubs

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

We do have to pay overs most of the time. If we offer a player the same amount as Manly, the Dogs, Dragon etc, who would they choose? Not us. No chance! If we offered 100k more than other clubs then they might come. That's the norm. Existing players at the club might take less if their heart is with the club. Dogs were paying half of Taupau's contract at first. He's not on much as he was a nobody when he came here.

Why on earth are people talking about 2019? What's that got to do with anything? We have no-one contracted for 2018! There'll be signings in 2017, probably not big names though. But there just won't be many/any for 2016, if there are some they'll be fringe players like a Taupau.

I agree. 2017 is looking like a good year to start rolling with new signings and these signings continuing into 2018\. Especially if our young players improve and put in substantially better team efforts throughout 2016.

I thought it was pretty plain that we wouldn't be buying anyone until at least 2018
As she says it will be at least 3 years before they have this mess unravelled, so I can't see any new players being bought in until then.
Even then it will take a couple of seasons to build the club up again( that's if we still exist) so I'm not sure we will be much happening before then

 

[Newtown]

We do have to pay overs most of the time. If we offer a player the same amount as Manly, the Dogs, Dragon etc, who would they choose? Not us. No chance! If we offered 100k more than other clubs then they might come. That's the norm. Existing players at the club might take less if their heart is with the club. Dogs were paying half of Taupau's contract at first. He's not on much as he was a nobody when he came here.

Why on earth are people talking about 2019? What's that got to do with anything? We have no-one contracted for 2018! There'll be signings in 2017, probably not big names though. But there just won't be many/any for 2016, if there are some they'll be fringe players like a Taupau.

I agree. 2017 is looking like a good year to start rolling with new signings and these signings continuing into 2018\. Especially if our young players improve and put in substantially better team efforts throughout 2016.

I thought it was pretty plain that we wouldn't be buying anyone until at least 2018
As she says it will be at least 3 years before they have this mess unravelled, so I can't see any new players being bought in until then.
Even then it will take a couple of seasons to build the club up again( that's if we still exist) so I'm not sure we will be much happening before then

If that is the case our CAP is only of secondary importance within the "mess" she refers to. It is pretty plain to see that something else, much more destructive than the CAP, is sinking this club's finances big time.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Idk what incentive any player would have to play with us ATM, not only to sign with us, but re-sign as well. Even Mr 2041\. The club is extremely lucky that he come off contract when he did, cos there's no way he'd have stayed now. What a career killer for an Origin player. The only incentive any player has playing for us ATM is cos they are looking for a chance. Austin and Taupau are examples. Austin moved on, and the smart money would be on Taupau not sticking around either. We need him a hell of a lot more than he needs us. And to think there are people who think we aren't a bigger basket case than Parra. When Parra get themselves into such a state that they can't enter the player market for 3 yrs then maybe they might have an argument.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.

As if players leave clubs just because they don't win enough. If you can get an opportunity and the right money, you will play almost anywhere. Our salary cap may have not been well managed, but it still amounts to a lot of money to share around, and we'll always have some players on very handsome salaries.

Haha you think results don't matter to players? Is that why teams like Parra and the Raiders in recent seasons have attempted to go on spending sprees with millions and ended up attracting no one?

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said players won't leave clubs simply because they don't win enough games. Otherwise how do the under-performing teams ever sign any players or retain their roster?

You keep making this comment that Marty Taupau will leave because we don't win, that Woods would leave also if given the chance. By your argument, we will struggle to field any good players in the next few years unless we are more successful on-field.

As for referencing Parra and Raiders recruitment, well that is a fool comment, because there is a 10-page thread going on right now about how lucky Raiders are to have signed Blake Austin from us. Raiders have also recently signed FPN, Waqa, Sezer, Leilua. Eels have recently signed Foran (to be confirmed), Beau Scott, Gordon, Watmough, Norman, Hopoate. You reckon none of these players would get a look-in at the Tigers?

Mate, to avoid contributing to your narcolepsy I'll just let you believe what you want to believe while I believe what I believe.

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

Maybe she should come out now with a rough idea of what their vision is for the club, the damage has already been done to our recruiting and retention, by her admission that weWon't have this sorted until 2018\. A clear statement about the direction of the club shouldn't be too hard to do, it shouldn't cause any more damage than has already happened, and may give the supporters hope that we will still exist in the NRL.
At the moment all of us are merely guessing.
Did she mean in her statement that we can't buy anyone until the end of 2018, or by the end of 2017\. It's not clear just what she meant , it may mean we can buy players while it's sorted, or is it that we can't UNTIL it's been sorted
At the moment we have a statement saying that it's all bad, but we'll fix it.but its all waffle
And not much substance.