Balmain seek extension..Wests Tigers

[hammertime]

I think they've just got to raise the white flag. With the massive debt they've saddled themselves with, they won't be able to match Wests Contributions for the foreseeable future and it will hold WT back from being as strong as they could be.

They only have themselves to blame at the end of the day for 2 main reasons

1) Only talking to 1 developer - Benny - when Harry T was there as an option. Maybe not to have Meriton take it on, but at least to provide them expert guidance and support on how to protect their interests.

2) Not protecting the existing premises with security so they could have moved back in when the Metro deal soured. This was the biggest blunder as far as I'm concerned. I would have got out the SUV and moved the pokies if they couldn't afford the movers back to Rozelle.

That's the thing though Hammer - They went broke AT Rozelle. They were in debt millions… The only way the new club there will help them out is all the traffic that would be generated from the development. If they had stayed there until the development took off - They'd still be in the same position.

Bennys' deal whilst not ideal, Gave them the clean slate finance wise that Geo referred to. From there they went backwards.
They borrowed millions from the NRL to help them out - From there they've gone backwards again.

That's not even mentioning the fact they needed to merge with Wests to survive.... Even though they apparently "Made the Cut" to survive alone, How would they have... The NRL gave them and Wests 8 mil (Or whatever it was to Merge) AND THEY BLEW THAT MONEY AS WELL!!!!

To hell with them I say - Multi million dollar organisations shouldn't be run by Old Football Players.

It depends if the debt was from funneling money elsewhere (i.e. WT), debt compounding or actually Rozelle pulling in a loss. I don't suspect it's the latter. plus, the area has gone through a bit of a gentrification since they moved out and I suspect they wouldn't have had a problem being cash flow positive. Especially if they wiped their debt selling their land. If they couldn't do that with no tax, they should haul the management over hot coals.

I know Sydney Markets has been trading ok, but they've had a problem with the limitations of Five Dock. It's small and the owner doesn't want to expand.

Benny also definitely had motives for himself in the deal. Whether Harry could have matched it or not, they should have talked to him. Only talking to one party, especially on a thing like this, is a very very bad business move. Even just as a sounding board about the deal. It's also about relationships, they burned one that could potentially save them now.

I still think the directors are to blame here

 

[innsaneink]

People forget that Balmain could have stood alone,they were in a similar position to Manly & Souths,needed a benefactor/sponsors to ease themselves into a better financial position but the Sydney Tigers fiasco meant the Directors took the easy option of the ARL's pot of fools gold.I won't name any names,other than Alan Jones(LOL),but the Directors were warned some potential backers won't get involved with Wests for a variety of reasons,and thats exactly what happened….what a mess.....

What
a
cop
out

pathetic

 

[batboy]

Rozelle was a going concern before council advised the club to buy up land. And the development was on track until the GFC.

Balmain did not need to merge with WM but it was the sensible option at the time. In terms of club backing a standalone Balmain would be on par with Newcastle, NQ or even Souths. Plus they would have been better placed to privatise. This is not to say I disagree with what took place in terms of the JV but I think your assessment is overly harsh.

Now whether WT should assist keeping Balmain afloat is an interesting question. If Balmain has no direct interest in WT there's nothing to stop the juniors affiliating with a different NRL club. So bye bye the Sironens, Mitch Moses, Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah etc etc. Our ability to attract and retain outside talent is already poor. Losing a vital junior feed could be a total disaster.

How is it overly harsh?

Balmain have proven (time and time again) they CAN NOT fund 1/2 an NRL team - How on gods green earth were they ever going to pay for a Team alone? Are you remembering the merge money they have blown?, Benny's bail out money? and the NRL grant that is also gone… And you guessed it BALMAIN ARE STILL BROKE!!

And the Juniors you mention - Are being funded by Ryde Eastwood and Ashfield... They seem to be doing a fine job with them.

You will find, When the group that owns the club actually has money, And isn't trying to pay back debts from a decade ago - Our position in the player market will also improve....

 

[batboy]

People forget that Balmain could have stood alone,they were in a similar position to Manly & Souths,needed a benefactor/sponsors to ease themselves into a better financial position but the Sydney Tigers fiasco meant the Directors took the easy option of the ARL's pot of fools gold.I won't name any names,other than Alan Jones(LOL),but the Directors were warned some potential backers won't get involved with Wests for a variety of reasons,and thats exactly what happened….what a mess.....

I disagree… Balmain can't do what they do properly (run a Leagues Club) How the hell can they do anything else...
In my 40 odd years, I've never heard of a Leagues Club (Full of Pokies) going broke.... Except that one.
Leave em to it - Get on with having a strong football club. Balmain obviously can't afford it, So sell it to someone who can!!

 

[Yossarian]

Rozelle was a going concern before council advised the club to buy up land. And the development was on track until the GFC.

Balmain did not need to merge with WM but it was the sensible option at the time. In terms of club backing a standalone Balmain would be on par with Newcastle, NQ or even Souths. Plus they would have been better placed to privatise. This is not to say I disagree with what took place in terms of the JV but I think your assessment is overly harsh.

Now whether WT should assist keeping Balmain afloat is an interesting question. If Balmain has no direct interest in WT there's nothing to stop the juniors affiliating with a different NRL club. So bye bye the Sironens, Mitch Moses, Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah etc etc. Our ability to attract and retain outside talent is already poor. Losing a vital junior feed could be a total disaster.

How is it overly harsh?

Balmain have proven (time and time again) they CAN NOT fund 1/2 an NRL team - How on gods green earth were they ever going to pay for a Team alone? Are you remembering the merge money they have blown?, Benny's bail out money? and the NRL grant that is also gone… And you guessed it BALMAIN ARE STILL BROKE!!

And the Juniors you mention - Are being funded by Ryde Eastwood and Ashfield... They seem to be doing a fine job with them.

You will find, When the group that owns the club actually has money, And isn't trying to pay back debts from a decade ago - Our position in the player market will also improve....

Because it's my opinion. You can shout all you want but I disagree with your assessment. The teams I referred to operate NRL teams with little or no licensed club contributions.

The juniors thing is about affiliation not funding. It's still up to Balmain Football Club as to what it does with its juniors.

And neither Balmain nor Wests have ever funded half of the NRL team. That's one of the greay untruths. The NRL grant massively dwarfs club contributions.

 

[jirskyr]

I wonder if Harry is feeling generous….

He could give us one of his Meriton Apartments and we could rebadge it as Tiger Tower. Build a club and a few other facilities/services in there and we'd be laughing.

I feel like puking everytime I read a post about Harry saving the tigers.

Indeed - like he hasn't had the chance to do so for decades and decided against it. When will people get over this fantasy? He's a rich guy who sort of supports the team, and has shown absolutely no inclination whatsoever to give it cash beyond an on-again, off-again jersey sponsorship (for which he gets his company's name on tube jersey, just like every other jersey sponsor).

Face it, the white knight isn't going to ride over the hill. If he was, he would have done so already. Move on.

I believe we have confirmation from TigerTorch that Uncle Harry is now involved in TPAs for the team, rather than being a direct sponsor. I am sure it is more valuable for the club to have him involved in this capacity, and he steps in as major sponsor for the periods where we could not source from other business.

I know for a fact he used to personally sponsor players back in the old Balmain days, he'd even give bonus payments to the players if the team had good wins, back when you could do that stuff.

I'd always be wary of criticising someone like him, when none of us really know his lifetime contribution to the club. Certainly, his contribution money-wise is far in excess of my own.

Maybe he can step in and just throw down $11M on Balmain, and we all know that is a drop in the ocean for him. On the other hand, I can only imagine how many small businesses, charities and other groups lobby Uncle Harry for a slice of his very large pie, much of which is certainly tied up in assests (and not just pure cash).

I'm grateful for whatever support he provides our club, and I would feel bad to criticise that he should do more just because he's a self-made man.

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

So bye bye the Sironens, Mitch Moses, Luke Brooks, Robbie Farah etc etc.

We have been trying to say bye bye to Farah all summer.

They'll get the extension with revised terms. The NRL will want to be 100% confident there is no life left before they enforce the agreement.

 

[Abraham]

That's the thing though Hammer - They went broke AT Rozelle. They were in debt millions…

Not true at all.

They were trading profitably prior to the directive that they had to buy up half the houses in Rozelle to proceed with the development.

So no, they didn't go broke at Rozelle prior to the development fiasco.

Edit-
I did have old financials laying around from the early 2000's, but don't know where they are anymore.

However I do agree that if, after all these years of facing extinction, if the best they can do is ask for anther year, then its time to say goodnight. Maybe with more professional leadership they would have implemented plan B, C, and D by now.

Its sad, but as long as there is a Tiger on the emblem, Wests Tigers will remain my team no matter what.

 

[sideline_eye]

Can anyone in the know confirm or refute what I thought had happened? I thought that Balmain sold the leagues club to the developer for $1 in exchange for the developer paying out their debts and guaranteeing that Balmain would be able to rent space in the new development for a new leagues club at market rental price. Yes? No?

 

[boonboon]

Can anyone in the know confirm or refute what I thought had happened? I thought that Balmain sold the leagues club to the developer for $1 in exchange for the developer paying out their debts and guaranteeing that Balmain would be able to rent space in the new development for a new leagues club at market rental price. Yes? No?

So they sold it for $1 and $23 million on debt. However the debt wasn't trading debt as such it was debt from purchasing nearby properties which would be required for the developement and which were part of the $23 million sale.

Balmain would then get free or discounted rent in the new development under the origional proposal. That has changed somewhat given the development has changed but still proposed to get space with price to be confirmed.

Those are the facts to my knowledge

My issue has always been the following what I believe were mistakes
1\. They sold to the wrong person - when the nations biggest property developer is your biggest sponsor and supporter then thats who they should have worked with - because if they had something would be built by now.

2\. They moved out before the development was approved. Club could still be trading at the venue now if they hadn't closed before approval and prob wouldn't have been in the debt issues they are now

 

[Spartan117]

As long as the team is called.the tigers my family and I will support the franchise.

I came from the Balmain side o the merger but business is business. I want this franchise to have the Dollars to invest in players and the facilities foremost as this will reqp results.on the field.

 

[2041]

I believe we have confirmation from TigerTorch that Uncle Harry is now involved in TPAs for the team, rather than being a direct sponsor. I am sure it is more valuable for the club to have him involved in this capacity, and he steps in as major sponsor for the periods where we could not source from other business.

I know for a fact he used to personally sponsor players back in the old Balmain days, he'd even give bonus payments to the players if the team had good wins, back when you could do that stuff.

I'd always be wary of criticising someone like him, when none of us really know his lifetime contribution to the club. Certainly, his contribution money-wise is far in excess of my own.

Maybe he can step in and just throw down $11M on Balmain, and we all know that is a drop in the ocean for him. On the other hand, I can only imagine how many small businesses, charities and other groups lobby Uncle Harry for a slice of his very large pie, much of which is certainly tied up in assests (and not just pure cash).

I'm grateful for whatever support he provides our club, and I would feel bad to criticise that he should do more just because he's a self-made man.

To be clear, I don't know anything about Harry Triguboff - whether he's a good guy, how he uses his money, whatever. All I'm saying is that the idea that he's suddenly going to decide, "ok, NOW they're in enough trouble that I'll chuck in a few mill to bail them out" is a pipe dream. If he was going to take that particular course of action, surely he would have done so several years ago.

 

[boonboon]

Plus if Harry did want to give away $11 million to us I would rather it went to Wests TIgers then Balmain and was spent on perhaps building a centre of excellence and not paying the debts of an old leagues club be that Balmain or Magpies given they no longer exist as NRL teams

 

[Tiger_Watto]

It seems too big a risk banking on a development to be approved, and the potential that a start-up club will be successful in the short term? **Its not like they will be able to keep the existing 2 clubs once they finally move into a new club.**

I think the NRL need to move forward and assess there viability based on the existing clubs for now.

Actually I think the idea is very much that they would keep the 2 other clubs as well as the new club.

Generally i think Balmain Leagues have been stupid but my understanding is
a) it's alot closer to being approved then ever has been before
b) In 12 months they probably would be in a much better situation as once it is approved they would be able to refinance the debts as they have a way to pay for them moving forward

However my preference has always been that the shares are offered for sale to members and fans on a similar basis to the Green Bay Packers in the NFL

The existing pokie licenses will be transfered into the new club, leaving those clubs as sitting ducks without gaming.

A share sale agreement to fans would be interesting, but I'm not sure that is the NRL's preferred option?

Some major football (read: sokkah,) clubs are run that way, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Osasuna and Bilbao in the Spanish Liga are a few that come to mind. You can't purchase shares, but you purchase membership which gives you voting rights when it comes to voting for governance.

Not sure how that would work though, as someone would need to buy Balmain's share out for no gain and then list it as a registered association which would only give voting rights for 50% of the club.

And put there hands in there pockets when the club is running short of coin?

 

[Snake]

Take the emotion out of this and the picture is all to clear…as a previous poster has said unless Balmains move back to Rozelle does not incorporate multi levels.. many bars ,restaurants ,large auditorium ..child care facilities and more they will just not survive .The casino is just down the road many of the pubs in the area would almost have as much floor space as a ground level apartment block they will be renting ..even asking the NRL for more time is a joke in itself ,if they get an extra year there will probable only be a hole in the ground at best and realistically not even that at this stage so what then another year ?
Meantime while Balmain want extension after extension OUR club the Weststigers are left to dye on the vine so to speak, it is time Balmain see this for what it is the end of the road . My club is the Weststigers I have no affiliation with either of the past 2 clubs yes came from one but that is over .If the boot was on the other foot I would think exactly the same it is time to move forward I want my club to be financially viable not have this anchor around its neck year after year!.

 

[Russell]

It is a sad day when most people want to kill off one of your parents.

Personally I would like to see ( if Balmain have no further affiliation with West Tigers) that the club revert to Western Suburbs with a Magpie as the logo.

No Balmain - no Tiger - no me.

Can't continue without a family history myself.

 

[TrueTiger]

It is a sad day when most people want to kill off one of your parents.

Personally I would like to see ( if Balmain have no further affiliation with West Tigers) that the club revert to Western Suburbs with a Magpie as the logo.

No Balmain - no Tiger - no me.

Can't continue without a family history myself.

As much as I loved the Maggies,Balmain Tigers were no 1 for me….the Tiger logo is worth far more to the nrl than the Magpie ever will,unfortunate,but true.....

 

[Snake]

It is a sad day when most people want to kill off one of your parents.

Personally I would like to see ( if Balmain have no further affiliation with West Tigers) that the club revert to Western Suburbs with a Magpie as the logo.

No Balmain - no Tiger - no me.

Can't continue without a family history myself.

Sorry our club is the Weststigers and the Tiger is our logo …I supported the Magpies for over 50 yrs there dead and buried ..this club is the future for all of us now and the future that the younger generation only know .If by chance the Wests group buy into the venture further nothing will change and nor should it as I said in my last post take the emotion out of this.. the Magpie I supported most of my life is in the past and should never be resurrected My club is the Weststigers no other!

 

[Benjirific]

People forget that Balmain could have stood alone,they were in a similar position to Manly & Souths,needed a benefactor/sponsors to ease themselves into a better financial position but the Sydney Tigers fiasco meant the Directors took the easy option of the ARL's pot of fools gold.I won't name any names,other than Alan Jones(LOL),but the Directors were warned some potential backers won't get involved with Wests for a variety of reasons,and thats exactly what happened….what a mess.....

I disagree… Balmain can't do what they do properly (run a Leagues Club) How the hell can they do anything else...
In my 40 odd years, I've never heard of a Leagues Club (Full of Pokies) going broke.... Except that one.
Leave em to it - Get on with having a strong football club. Balmain obviously can't afford it, So sell it to someone who can!!

I'm not sure what world you live in, but registered clubs and the like (Bowling/Sports Clubs) have been dying off for a couple of decades across the inner west. Tigers was the only Leagues Club or RSL left in the area, and now it seems due to the development mess, they'll be gone as well.

Can anyone in the know confirm or refute what I thought had happened? I thought that Balmain sold the leagues club to the developer for $1 in exchange for the developer paying out their debts and guaranteeing that Balmain would be able to rent space in the new development for a new leagues club at market rental price. Yes? No?

So they sold it for $1 and $23 million on debt. However the debt wasn't trading debt as such it was debt from purchasing nearby properties which would be required for the developement and which were part of the $23 million sale.

Balmain would then get free or discounted rent in the new development under the origional proposal. That has changed somewhat given the development has changed but still proposed to get space with price to be confirmed.

Those are the facts to my knowledge

My issue has always been the following what I believe were mistakes
1\. They sold to the wrong person - when the nations biggest property developer is your biggest sponsor and supporter then thats who they should have worked with - because if they had something would be built by now.

2\. They moved out before the development was approved. Club could still be trading at the venue now if they hadn't closed before approval and prob wouldn't have been in the debt issues they are now

1 - they sold to the only person who did them a manageable deal. They spoke to various developers and finalised a deal with a completely different developer the day before the GFC struck in USA and Lehmann Brothers (who were the developer's backers) collapsed. If not for that (they had a compliant DA which Council were going to back) the club would be built by now, a similar size to what is currently on the table.

2 - they moved out because the NSW Govt told them they had to. The Govt sold them up the river with regard to the Metro, forced them to move out then cancelled the project, however by that stage they had cleaned house, started setting up Five Dock & Flemington and made the majority of their staff redundant. Leaving the site was the State Govt's decision alone, nothing to do with the developer or an approved DA.

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

That's the thing though Hammer - They went broke AT Rozelle. They were in debt millions…

Not true at all.

They were trading profitably prior to the directive that they had to buy up half the houses in Rozelle to proceed with the development.

So no, they didn't go broke at Rozelle prior to the development fiasco.

Edit-
I did have old financials laying around from the early 2000's, but don't know where they are anymore.

However I do agree that if, after all these years of facing extinction, if the best they can do is ask for anther year, then its time to say goodnight. Maybe with more professional leadership they would have implemented plan B, C, and D by now.

Its sad, but as long as there is a Tiger on the emblem, Wests Tigers will remain my team no matter what.

I thought I read that the Tigers Club income was going down due to the casino taking business and council suggested or someone did to enlarge the block to make better facilities to attract customers back. This led to borrowing the money to buy up the properties. Then downhill from there. It all comes back to the state govt allowing gambling facilities into private hands such as casinos and pubs. It is easy money with which purely the opportunity is provided by the state so should have been kept for non profit entities only. When Packer gets his Bangaroo casino up and running it will be worse for other RL clubs as well. Also for any new Tigers club.