How Can the Tigers build a Top Class Roster

[Westigerth]

Its obvious from all the Experts on here that most arent happy with the Roster management that has existed over the last 19 years.

Some constructive comments might be helpfull.

We all know the history but what is the way forward.
It seems to me we keep going in the reverse because we have never had the recruitment department set up right,and have relied on the Coach to get it right.
It has been shown more recently with the Ivan Fiasco ,that when a Coach departs ,its the club that needs to pick up the pieces.
It is also fair to say that these decicions can impact a club for many years.
It begs to ask the question if we have got it totally wrong for the last 19 years ,how is it going to change ,or more importantely what are the correct steps forward.
We seem to be making good steps forward with community programmes and the like,however that doesnt help you challenge for premierships.
The Nrl needs to take steps to de power the player agents who will rip the game and clubs apart ,as we can see what is happening now.
Im also bemused at all the ex players wanting to begrudge a player a million dollar pay day.(quite possibly jealousy).
So we have got a few problems the Salary cap, market forces ,3rd party agreements,media agendas,injuries etc .
But my question is as everybody is faced with the same conditions we need to suck it up.
We all know that its not a level playing field ,there is the strong and there is the weak.
Our Boards ,previous administrations ,coaches and former players have made this club what it is today ,and its not a pretty picture.
The cycle of coaches coming and going needs to stop ,they should be responsible for their decicions ,hence their own contract should be incentive based ,with bonuses if milestones are met and contract deductions when it goes bad.But how do we build a great Club??
Do we rely on developing our own players,or go to market. The development of juniors coming into the tigers Nrl program has been ok, but then the player leaves and in many cases another club has turned the player into an International.
In recent years the JT coching and retention fiasco ,and the Ivan rebuilding fiasco highlights why we are in the position we are in .
We have developed our own ,waited for the players to get 50 or a hundred games under their belt,only for another club to gain the benefit.
Taking into acount all of the above we as clubs all are spending 9 million plus on players why cant the Tigers expect the best players,why do we also have to accept 2nd and 3rd rate players who end up taking up all our Salary cap earning overs just going contract to contract not putting in and having a laugh behind the clubs back.
I personally believe under many years of observation the elite players want to play with strong and successful clubs and rosters,sometimes a successful coach.
That begs the question where is the top tier magnet in our club to attract the best players? We dont have one.
Do we pay overs to attract that Test player? It seems the other Clubs do this allready,but they buy the right players and keep the right players.
Now all the talk about Latrell? Is he a player we could build a club around yes i beleve so ,he has done so much at such a young age, does he have his quirks? Yes i believe all players do. But is he worth the money ,yes because of the situation we are in .
So paying overs when a club is in our position seems fair ,Newcastle did it,others are doing it.
We need to follow up with another big name signing in years 2020 and 2021 keep the same strategy going keep the club stronger ,remembering a coaches lifespan doesnt seem to last past 4 years before they lose the dressing room.
So it is then the clubs responsibility to maintain a strong roster then this coach excuse of recent years about rebuilds goes away.
Im sure a Coach is like a player he wants to win Premierships ,so if a club has a strong roster the top tier coaches will be lining up with their hands upto join us.
Likewise if the playing roster is strong its easier to attract the best players.
We have gone from bandaid syndrome from one year after the next .
Right now i see the club at another crossroad ,we need to go to market and buy the best
1. It helps develop up and comer players.
2. It helps to attract good players coming on to the market ,
3. Revenue from sponsorships,club memberships go up.
4. You start to get success on the field.
5. Usually these elite rep players have been in the clubs with the best systems that means the overs your a paying builds a cost that has been given into their development.
My suggestion BUY LATRELLE then buy a world class 2nd rower ,then buy some fijian rugby talent.
We always seem to just look inward there is so much talent in other codes other countries ,put in place a international recruitment system that identifies talent.
Make it a paid position Europe and Pacific Island talent ,make that person live in the region 6 months at a time so relationships can be built.
Very happy to hear we have signed the junior kiwi prop this is the way forward.
Maybe some suggestions from other forum members can help the club go forward rather than just whinging about what has been done now and previously.

 

[jadtiger]

Interesting read thanks for putting your thoughts together

 

[happy_tiger]

I don't think out 1.7 million is going to spread real far once we've bought Mitchell and top notch back rower

Fijian rugby players unfortunately don't come cheap to league anymore ...English rugby clubs with more money than sense are grabbing them

 

[Russell]

Don't think we need ex rugby players myself.

 

[2041]

Start with juniors. The only way to have a successful roster is to have players who are performing above what they’re getting paid. You can cheat (paying dodgy and unspecified “unders” to players inside the cap and topping up outside it), be consistently successful at identifying talent others have missed, or bring your own talent through and get value out of it before it gets too expensive. Option 1 isn’t available to most clubs, option 2 is hard to repeat (though it’s pretty important). So it has to be 3. When you have the core of a good team and lots of it isn’t too expensive you can add external signings to be difference makers. Without the good, cheap core you’re always chasing quick fixes. Hello Gold Coast Titans.

It’s tough to take when good young players leave but ultimately when they get to the point where they need a full market value contract they aren’t as useful any more. Players will always chase the money but If a player commands a million a year he is actually generally pretty replaceable - provided you don’t waste the money. A million dollars in a nine million salary cap gives a lot of options.

What puzzles me is how many people on here take it for granted that the Tigers have been producing a lot of juniors and it’s now time to try something else. We haven’t been producing juniors, not for years. Tedesco, Brooks and Moses all debuted at least five years ago. Think how many good young players the better clubs have debuted since then. We’ve had Addo-Carr and who else? Marsters? And how many “proven first grade” players have we signed in the same period?

 

[happy_tiger]

Start with juniors. The only way to have a successful roster is to have players who are performing above what they’re getting paid. You can cheat (paying dodgy and unspecified “unders” to players inside the cap and topping up outside it), be consistently successful at identifying talent others have missed, or bring your own talent through and get value out of it before it gets too expensive. Option 1 isn’t available to most clubs, option 2 is hard to repeat (though it’s pretty important). So it has to be 3. When you have the core of a good team and lots of it isn’t too expensive you can add external signings to be difference makers. Without the good, cheap core you’re always chasing quick fixes. Hello Gold Coast Titans.

It’s tough to take when good young players leave but ultimately when they get to the point where they need a full market value contract they aren’t as useful any more. Players will always chase the money but If a player commands a million a year he is actually generally pretty replaceable - provided you don’t waste the money. A million dollars in a nine million salary cap gives a lot of options.

What puzzles me is how many people on here take it for granted that the Tigers have been producing a lot of juniors and it’s now time to try something else. We haven’t been producing juniors, not for years. Tedesco, Brooks and Moses all debuted at least five years ago. Think how many good young players the better clubs have debuted since then. We’ve had Addo-Carr and who else? Marsters? And how many “proven first grade” players have we signed in the same period?

And we haven't been great with our juniors ...we produce them but either can't keep them or keep the wrong ones

Losing two top drawer backrowers when we lost Ellis and Dwyer , and then losing so much experience up front in that 2011/2012 really hurt us

 

[rustycage]

Another thread with the same questions

 

[TIGER]

Get rid of players that add Zero like
Packer, McQueen (should never have been signed) ET, Reynolds, Eiso, Mbye (should have never been made captain)

And spend it on quality

 

[Joel Helmes]

@TIGER I think that’s pretty much the plan, I’d say 2020 will be the last year at the tigers for most of those guys.

 

[tigeress]

@Westigerth Well said, some of your points here are exactly what the rest of us are thinking or believe. Thank you for your insights Westigerth:grin:

 

[tigeress]

Start with juniors. The only way to have a successful roster is to have players who are performing above what they’re getting paid. You can cheat (paying dodgy and unspecified “unders” to players inside the cap and topping up outside it), be consistently successful at identifying talent others have missed, or bring your own talent through and get value out of it before it gets too expensive. Option 1 isn’t available to most clubs, option 2 is hard to repeat (though it’s pretty important). So it has to be 3. When you have the core of a good team and lots of it isn’t too expensive you can add external signings to be difference makers. Without the good, cheap core you’re always chasing quick fixes. Hello Gold Coast Titans.

It’s tough to take when good young players leave but ultimately when they get to the point where they need a full market value contract they aren’t as useful any more. Players will always chase the money but If a player commands a million a year he is actually generally pretty replaceable - provided you don’t waste the money. A million dollars in a nine million salary cap gives a lot of options.

What puzzles me is how many people on here take it for granted that the Tigers have been producing a lot of juniors and it’s now time to try something else. We haven’t been producing juniors, not for years. Tedesco, Brooks and Moses all debuted at least five years ago. Think how many good young players the better clubs have debuted since then. We’ve had Addo-Carr and who else? Marsters? And how many “proven first grade” players have we signed in the same period?

We let the majority of our "good" juniors go to other clubs...of course once they want to go there's generally nothing we can do about it, and us poor long suffering fans/members.( I still haven't resigned yet) have to accept, but we are not happy,
I would like to see all clubs have to bring through and retain a certain % of juniors then surely we would all be on the SAME level playing field !

 

[Tigers_Tale]

@tigeress Really the NRL should be assisting teams that develop juniors, and this may encourage other teams to also develop juniors. They could say allow us to pay $50K after 2years, $100K after 3 years, $200K after 4 years, then cap it at $300K after 5 years. Would mean that the richer teams would then have to pay overs to poach our junior talent. As in current situation we are paying overs just to keep our juniors.

 

[supercoach]

@tigeress Really the NRL should be assisting teams that develop juniors, and this may encourage other teams to also develop juniors. They could say allow us to pay $50K after 2years, $100K after 3 years, $200K after 4 years, then cap it at $300K after 5 years. Would mean that the richer teams would then have to pay overs to poach our junior talent. As in current situation we are paying overs just to keep our juniors.

Teams like the Chooks target the best of the best juniors get them into their junior rep teams and than they qualify as juniors. A lot of our better juniors have been poached from other systems. Maybe we need to re define what a junior is

 

[earl]

Get rid of players that add Zero like
Packer, McQueen (should never have been signed) ET, Reynolds, Eiso, Mbye (should have never been made captain)

And spend it on quality

This is exactly how you get a top class roster. You have to spend your money wisely.

 

[bptiger]

@Earl what the club needs to do is target fringe 1st graders who have had some 1st grade experience but cant break into the team the with at present. there is plenty of talent out there, that are on min salary. look what matterson was on. so heres a short list lomax, nene McDonald, leulia from the dragons, Collins from the rooters, the big Fijian front rower from the storm, if u only had to double what they were on u would have a very cheat side, and most would jump at the chance to play fulltime rather than play in Canterbury or queens land cup.we all ready have a good side what we lack is size in the forwards with leg speed and a couple of better backs. it can be done if the powers that be looked at what is out there rather than chasing high priced talent.

 

[WeHaveCheeKam]

You aren't going to buy a whole roster of big names (We aren't anyway).

We need to bring juniors through. This is easier said than done but we need to develop people into first graders as its more cost efficient. All our best years involved some sort of development of juniors as a core base. IF we can bring in some high quality juniors that are exciting, it is more likely other people will come from other clubs (and at a cheaper price).

 

[cqtiger]

Personally, I think the Wests Tigers have been too emotional with a number of signings ever since the JV, with both coaches and players. Starting with the $8M the NRL gave us to get together.

Happy is correct when he says that losing Ellis and Dwyer hurt us big time - add Simona (a very good centre) to that.

I go back just a couple of years to the big 4, we would have been in a bigger mess I think. From memory (which is fading fast) we were offering Tedesco $1.2M, Woods $900k, Moses $800k and Brooks $750k - Cleary came in and said enough of the filibustering - sign or leave. Brooks was the only one to sign but for much less.

We all know only Tedesco was probably worth what was offered.

Again, signing Cleary and giving him carte blanche with all the signings was a big mistake but after years of low priced, inexperienced coaches this too was an emotional signing.

You learn through your mistakes (so we should be the Einstein of clubs) but I think with Maguire and some of the new staff we aren’t too far off assembling a much better squad. It will still take another couple of seasons with a few new key signings each year but I’m confident.

Alas, only time will tell.

 

[Bob]

We need Tim Sheens.. not necessarily him exactly but a head of football operations a la Phil Gould..

The problem with coaches having the major say in building a team is they build for success in the short term sometimes to the detriment of the long term, so they can move on or renegotiate a higher contract in 3 years.

We need someone to oversee the football operations (so not Pascoe) that is someone that doesn’t have ambitions to move onto something else in 4 years. I know we have this but I believe it really needs to be one of those ex coaches that have experience being a head coach.

Ideally before each contract it would be elevated through a series of people

1. Coach
2. Head of football operations
3. In-house salary cap financial Guru
4. Lawyer
5. Tigers agent for Contract negotiations
6. CEO (company image protections)
7. Board of directors (Oversight)

They would all need to work together on every contract.

 

[2005magic]

I find it interesting the reaction of the media to the possible signature of Mitchell. The vast majority are saying he should stay at Roosters for less money than WT may offer because of opportunity for success and the rewards it brings. Nowhere is there a mention of a weaker club being able to improve their performance and success by signing the aforementioned player , or indeed any other good player i.e JAC.

Does that mean then in the commentators view WT have to remain a perennial bottom half dweller unable to improve their roster, with any local talent poached by better performing, more successful clubs? This issue is more than just salary cap management and the very success that occurs eg premiership shaking out a player or two from the roster due to increased player payments because of the success. I'm not sure I heard any such ruckus from the media for staying with a successful team when WT on reduced payments won 2005 and in 2006-07 when we had to shed players due to increased payments.

It should be asked of these media commentators, and indeed the NRL, how do they see the salary cap, player movement and the lower ranked clubs being able to improve their rosters and performance if all, or the bulk of, talented and current representative footballers are held by only a few clubs.

Junior development can only do so much and the NRL does nothing to protect clubs developing juniors from poaching by other clubs, so junior development is only a small part of the equation.

 

[Fitzy05]

@Bob I Agree and disagree.It is more important who the person is rather than the title .That 1-7 looks good on paper. That structure looks similar to the Panthers model. Yet they had ego /personality clashes . Same with Parra.

We need to get the culture right . Which isn’t as simple as saying your a Madge type of person. The culture is formed by many people that work well together.