How to expand

[pHyR3]

So with the offseason truly upon us. I thought i'd start a discussion about how the NRL and rugby league in general should look to expand.

**Perth:**
Personally I'm unsure of whether perth can sustain an NRL team, crowds there of 15k for one match dont suggest more than 5-8k averages if a team played 12 games there a season. A combined team might work. Adelaide and Perth perhaps? or Perth and Nsydney.

**Sydney:**
I think Penrith and the Eels will have to merge eventually, Parramatta Panthers sounds nice, or Penrith Eels? Too many teams in sydney and I'd prefer a merger to relocation. Perhaps the same with Cronulla. Merge with central coast or even North Sydney perhaps. I would also like Manly to expand into the North Shore. Wish that merger had worked out, was perfect geographically.

**New Zealand:**
I don't think NZ needs another team, but they should spread out their games a bit. it would drive up crowds too, only having maybe 8 games in Auckland and 4 'exhibition' games in South Island, wellington, christchurch, new plymouth places like that.

**PNG**
I'd love to see a PNG based team within 10 years. I've said before they are crazy about rugby league, only country with it as the national sport, and with a big population of 7 million i could see a NRL team thriving there. You can see that in the PM's XIII match, packed stadium with people hanging of trees just to get a glimpse of some NRL players. Probably quite a few kinks to work out over there before we can introduce a team but it'd be great for the game and to get another powerhouse alongside England, NZ and Aus.

**Other International**
I'd love to see 3 professional rugby league competitions world wide in the long term, maybe in 20, 30, 40 years haha. But they'd be a European league based around the Super League which has seen consistent growth since inception. Crowds have doubled I think since 1996\. And will pass 10k average after the world cup i hope. There's now a french team in the ESL, i'd love to see more european countries join like Russia. I saw they had a RL match in russia with a 25k crowd, pretty good. Also maybe Italy.

Next would obviously be the NRL which would be an australiasian league including the islands, Oz, NZ, maybe even a chinese or indonesian team (that's probably a bit farfetched though :laughing: ).

And finally would be the smallest of the 3, an American league that includes Canada. It would be centred around the existing competitions, a unified one obviously, and would average crowds of 5k or so with 8 maybe 10 teams. Obviously playing 2nd fiddle to the premier sports in the states, NFL, NBA, MLB, even soccer. But to get even a small foothold there would be amazing. You could potentially have 10 million watching the NRL GF every year after expanding into europe, americas and NZ.
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A lot of this is farfetched and a million years in the future but it's nice to think long term :slight_smile:

Thoughts? i'm probably gonna get kicked out for being a crazy after that last bit haha

 

[Fraze23]

I honestly don't believe there's enough talent to support expansion without first reducing the amount of teams present. This season the gap between the top and bottom was huge, and i believe that comes down to there not being enough talented players spread out amongst the teams. If we were to introduce entirely new teams this would just increase the problem.
I'm all for the inclusion of teams in Perth, Adelaide and other locations across Australia, but in order for this to occur we need to reduce the amount of teams in Sydney.

 

[pHyR3]

That's why i'm going for mergers instead. Penrith/Eels combines two large sydney teams into 1 leaving 15 teams. And gives room for a Perth/Nsydney or Perth/Central coast team to come into the mix.

I don't subscribe to the notion the gap between the bottom and top teams was that great. Dragons beat souths, we beat storm, we matched it well with souths, dragons beat sharks, eels beat storm last year, eels were 1st after round 1 haha. I think the reffing is the root cause of all these scoreless halves combined with a focus on defence by NRL teams. It became almost impossible to turn the momentum in 2013, if they scored a couple of tries it was a lot harder to fight back.

You can see that clearly in the complete anniahilation of i think it was the warriors by penrith 62-6 or something. Then the warriors went on a rampage, same with the cows.

 

[happy_tiger]

Not even acknowledging that another team in Brisbane is a must confuses me

Adelaide could be a possible answer also

 

[pHyR3]

you'd know best happy, but i don't really see the drastic need to expand in QLD? You've got a team for all of brisbane, north QLD and the Gold coast. Seems to have covered all the major areas. And as mentioned, we can't just keep endlessly expanding because there is a limited amount of talent and attention from the public. So it has to be done strategically, and that's why I don't want another NZ team. Seems like WA/SA are more pressing than QLD.

Yea, i considered perth/adelaide combined club cause low crowds will be a major issue if its 12 home games in pert or adelaide.

 

[steve-o]

Personally I don't see the need for a 2nd Brisbane team. If you look at the swans/GWS situation, hardly anyone goes for GWS. Why? Because their roots and loyalties lie with swans. Also probably to do with the fact swans are good and GWS rubbish, but I still can't see broncos fans switching allegiance all of a sudden to a new team.

Personally I'd love to see the bears on the central coast, but I have conceded that this team has fallen well behind in the expansion pecking order

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[balmain boy]

Another QLD team has to be the next expansion team. End of story.

They LOVE rugby league up there and considering how many juniors they have too it just makes sense. Broncos have had a monopoly on the market up there for way too long so whether an additional team should be in Brisbane, Ipswich, Sunshine Coast, Rockhampton etc I don't know. Happy would have a better idea of the populations, stadia and where would be successful. West Brisbane I'd say?

Rugby league is the number 1 sport in QLD, unlike SA or WA and any new side will have a strong basis to build off.

I do agree that rather than expanding the size of the comp there does need to be a few mergers/expulsions in Sydney first.

For me the two prime candidates. Firstly, the Sharks, as geographically they add nothing to the comp, they have a relatively small fanbase, little history, and a very small junior base. The dragons should swallow them up (as unpopular as that would be). This would allow a brand new club to take the Sharks license.

I think all the new clubs should be brand new, and not affiliated (at least at NRL level- juniors is possible) to any other club. Locals will adopt their own club more than one affiliated with another city.

The other club I would merge is the Roosters, with Souths (another hugely unpopular decision I know), but for the same reasons as the Sharks the Roosters simply don't offer anything at all to the league with the exception of their history. They have few fans, no juniors and represent an area that doesn't give a stuff about rugby league. All they have is money.

I would keep all the teams out west as this is rugby league's stronghold, is a hugely populous area, and where the largest number of juniors in the state come from. It makes sense to keep these clubs strong and with a clear identity. They have fans and they care about league. The Roosters were happy to merge with anyone in the late 90's, and I have a vague recollection that a Souths roosters merger was considered then, but Souths didn't want anything to do with anyone else.

When looking at geography and the need to cull teams it just doesn't make sense to have the Sharks or the Roosters considering the other clubs in such close proximity. At least the western clubs have some distance between them.

Then there would be space for either Perth, Adelaide or the Central Coast who would all add something different to the league…!

 

[Juro]

I am all for expansion.

I would love to see Perth come back into the NRL. Surely it is a question of when, rather than if. I agree that Brisbane should have an extra team. Suncorp Stadium is too good a stadium to only host 12 games a year. Another team in NZ could do wonders for rugby league in New Zealand. Adelaide seems a long way down the track. PNG would be fantastic if they could get past the security issues.

I would go for expansion to 18 teams by 2016, bringing in Perth and Brisbane 2\. Then expand again to 20 by 2024, bringing in NZ 2 and either Adelaide or PNG. With increased salary cap, the sport will attract more talent, helping to supply quality to these extra teams. Further investment would also be needed in the grass roots.

As for the European comp, it would be great if London could get a bit of success. Bringing back a Welsh team, plus a second French team would help the geographic spread.

It would be amazing for rugby league if the game ever took off over in America. I'm just wondering whether it would be a two edged sword, though. If it became successful, it could suck a lot of the talent away from the NRL. How would you feel if the NRL became a feeder comp to an American comp?

 

[VanillaThunder]

I'd echo Juro's plan, makes perfect sense to me. I think the second kiwi team is definitely a good idea, especially given the quality of their 20's team year in year out, it would help draw more from union and keep more kids at home as well, which can only be good for them.
Don't know enough about the Adelaide bid to comment on it, but Perth would definitely be up for it with a heavy expat population and a growing interest in the game statewide.

I don't mind if it's 2016 or 2018, what I would really like is for the NRL to identify where they are going to expand as soon as possible, and maximise preparation time for the new clubs.

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[pHyR3]

I don't see why everyone is so keen on a brisbane team. We already have one, who would support it? Any RL supporters would be supporting the broncos, and aren't gonna change. If they set up a new Western Sydney team, would anyone support it? no. there's already teams there.

And it's not like the QLD teams have such amazing talent that they're dominating the comp. One team scraped into the 8 this year….

I can't see any benefit of another brisbane team but I can see a large benfit with manly expanding into the north shore and a perth/adelaide team making an entrance. Just have to find some commonality in either name or history or something. Otherwise it seems to forced.

I could see a 2nd NZ team though, a bit of south vs north island rivalry could be developed. And the argument about juniors is definitely not one i'd considered.

 

[VanillaThunder]

Brisbane 2 is as much a commercial decision as any I'd say. They can half the Broncos Friday night game quota, eventually develop a rivalry, and tap in to the local talent.
Admittedly I don't know much about the setup over there, but the big draw for me in rugby league is the tribalism. I love watching Tigers juniors work their way up to become stars, just as much as I hate Cronulla cobbling together a team from everywhere else. There's more than enough talent to support a second Brisbane team, and I think fans and players alike would appreciate a team forged on the back of a strong, dedicated junior pool.

You'd have to convince me of the logistics behind the Perth/Adelaide joint bid, but I think that may suffer more than individual teams. We get around our own out west, I don't know how willing we'd be to share.

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[balmain boy]

A 2nd team in NZ does make sense and could help the game grow over there. Wellington or Christchurch the only real options though perhaps?

Perth had a successful team in the 90s and could definitely be a goer, but we actually don't have the player pool at the moment to support an increase in teams. Imagine if Parra had 2 more teams to compete with to buy players, they would have an even worse roster, and so would we.

A second Brisbane area team is also good for TV. The Broncos played a thousand Friday night games this season, as usual, as channel 9 wants one QLD and one NSW game on almost every Friday night.. An unfair imbalance, and another team will not only help spread out the QLD juniors, but the scheduling too.

Brisbane - 3rd biggest city in Australia, league the number 1 sport, but only 1 team? Same as Melbourne who doesn't give a stuff? Only locals can tell what the local divide is in terms of rivalries. East v West?

Look at the A League. A lot of Sydney FC fans turned to the Wanderers once they came in. Granted SFC haven't bee around as long as the Broncos, but don't underestimate the power of a local team.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

A 2nd team in NZ does make sense and could help the game grow over there. Wellington or Christchurch the only real options though perhaps?

Perth had a successful team in the 90s and could definitely be a goer, but we actually don't have the player pool at the moment to support an increase in teams. Imagine if Parra had 2 more teams to compete with to buy players, they would have an even worse roster, and so would we.

A second Brisbane area team is also good for TV. The Broncos played a thousand Friday night games this season, as usual, as channel 9 wants one QLD and one NSW game on almost every Friday night.. An unfair imbalance, and another team will not only help spread out the QLD juniors, but the scheduling too.

Brisbane - 3rd biggest city in Australia, league the number 1 sport, but only 1 team? Same as Melbourne who doesn't give a stuff? Only locals can tell what the local divide is in terms of rivalries. East v West?

Look at the A League. A lot of Sydney FC fans turned to the Wanderers once they came in. Granted SFC haven't bee around as long as the Broncos, but don't underestimate the power of a local team.

Easts hate Wests!!!

A second Brisbane Team is a sure thing as it guarantees money…

Stuff NZ... Its not our job to help them grow there game. That should be the responsibility of the NZRL who seem to always whine about Australian RL. Kick them out and buy all there talent!

Perth will work if you move a current successful team there... The NRL just needs to offer the right incentives.

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[happy_tiger]

A 2nd team in NZ does make sense and could help the game grow over there. Wellington or Christchurch the only real options though perhaps?

Perth had a successful team in the 90s and could definitely be a goer, but we actually don't have the player pool at the moment to support an increase in teams. Imagine if Parra had 2 more teams to compete with to buy players, they would have an even worse roster, and so would we.

A second Brisbane area team is also good for TV. The Broncos played a thousand Friday night games this season, as usual, as channel 9 wants one QLD and one NSW game on almost every Friday night.. An unfair imbalance, and another team will not only help spread out the QLD juniors, but the scheduling too.

Brisbane - 3rd biggest city in Australia, league the number 1 sport, but only 1 team? Same as Melbourne who doesn't give a stuff? Only locals can tell what the local divide is in terms of rivalries. East v West?

Look at the A League. A lot of Sydney FC fans turned to the Wanderers once they came in. Granted SFC haven't bee around as long as the Broncos, but don't underestimate the power of a local team.

Easts hate Wests!!!

A second Brisbane Team is a sure thing as it guarantees money…

Stuff NZ... Its not our job to help them grow there game. That should be the responsibility of the NZRL who seem to always whine about Australian RL. Kick them out and buy all there talent!

Perth will work if you move a current successful team there... The NRL just needs to offer the right incentives.

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Wests love Easts Always a guaranteed GF victory

2nd Brisbane team or an Ipswich team , maybe if you want some separation from Brisbane a Sunshine Coast side

Over two million people and 1 RL side , crazy

 

[pHyR3]

Could you explain why this is crazy? Works well in the US, one city of 5 million one NFL or NBA team. I can't see how you would be tapping into an additional market or boosting crowds much.

 

[happy_tiger]

Could you explain why this is crazy? Works well in the US, one city of 5 million one NFL or NBA team. I can't see how you would be tapping into an additional market or boosting crowds much.

Because the other city has over 4 million and Manly, Parra ,Tigers ,Bulldogs , Penrith ,Souths ,Roosters , Cronulla , Saints

Starting to make some sense now ??

If it wasn't for the Super League war , we would still have two sides in Brisbane, trust me if the Crushers had been more successful the fans would of stuck around

 

[Frank_the_tank]

I've lived in NZ for a while now and apart from Auckland I really don't think a second team will work. You guys have to understand how big rugby is here and how that dominates all other codes and sports.

Sure the warriors are established and they have a great fan base and support, but that is not going to be replicated in Christchurch or Wellington. They struggle to get crowds at their super 15 rugby games now, and rugby is regarded as a religion over here.

There's no doubt one of the Sydney teams is going to get squeezed out and relocated, sharks or dogs would be my bet.

 

[system]

I dont think people realise how many RL Fans in Brisbane actually hate the Broncos…

Having a weekly match at Suncorp Stadium will be too much to resist for the NRL & Channel Nine.

Sunshine Coast wont work Happy... Not enough population and it is becoming Rugby & AFL centric. We have produced some good talent over the last 15years, but they struggle to host a reputable A-Grade Comp up here.

The Brisbane Bombers are backed by the QRL and have some good corporate supporters already. Let them decide where to base themselves, but they will be just as successful as the Broncos in 10-15 years!

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[pHyR3]

I've lived in NZ for a while now and apart from Auckland I really don't think a second team will work. You guys have to understand how big rugby is here and how that dominates all other codes and sports.

Sure the warriors are established and they have a great fan base and support, but that is not going to be replicated in Christchurch or Wellington. They struggle to get crowds at their super 15 rugby games now, and rugby is regarded as a religion over here.

There's no doubt one of the Sydney teams is going to get squeezed out and relocated, sharks or dogs would be my bet.

Exactly, this is why i've mentioned the warriors playing more games on south island. Like 3-4 games. Haven't lived in NZ for a while though, how do you reckon that'd work?

And happy, i've read a few articles and comments etc. and I can start to see where you're coming from but I can't see where all these fans are coming from. You'll need 10s of thousands of fans to average more than 10k home games (excl. when playing the broncos) and I don't see why so many would switch or suddenly become NRL fans….

 

[Gray]

I've lived in NZ for a while now and apart from Auckland I really don't think a second team will work. You guys have to understand how big rugby is here and how that dominates all other codes and sports.

Sure the warriors are established and they have a great fan base and support, but that is not going to be replicated in Christchurch or Wellington. They struggle to get crowds at their super 15 rugby games now, and rugby is regarded as a religion over here.

There's no doubt one of the Sydney teams is going to get squeezed out and relocated, sharks or dogs would be my bet.

Exactly, this is why i've mentioned the warriors playing more games on south island. Like 3-4 games. Haven't lived in NZ for a while though, how do you reckon that'd work?

And happy, i've read a few articles and comments etc. and I can start to see where you're coming from but I can't see where all these fans are coming from. You'll need 10s of thousands of fans to average more than 10k home games (excl. when playing the broncos) and I don't see why so many would switch or suddenly become NRL fans….

Playing more games nz wide is a great idea and I don't understand why they don't do it more often!

Just look at that game they brought to Welly and it attracted over 30000 fans. Which is great for a warriors game!

Preseason games are a perfect opportunity to do this like they did last year in Christchurch and instead they are going up the road to north harbour this year? Stupid. I agree with having 3-4 games a season elsewhere in NZ.

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