I think the issue is Sheens

Wow Luch is on DV charges? We dodged a massive bullet there.

Agreed, I gave Sheens till round 6 to get at least 2 wins. Not huge expectations but I want to see some success.

Come round 6, maybe round 8 considering Bateman hasn't started.... I want Sheens on notice if he isn't making the goods. The whole "Sheens" idea is madness, it is a shame Manly did not fire Des Haslier sooner.
So 2 weeks is too short, but you can judge his performance in 6 weeks?

This has to be the dumbest comment on the dumbest thread on the internet today.
I pray that supporters of other clubs don't stumble on it.
The supporters of this club have proven this week that they're far weaker than any team that's ever run out.
 
It's the tigers. We're 0 and 2.
Time for a rebuild
Not just that, every serious WT fan must self-flagellate to drive out evil spirits, and purify itself😢
 
Let's take emotion out of this and look at it for what it is.

In 2005, the whole squad was pretty much in the form of their lives. We could do no wrong. In 2011 preliminary final, we threw the game away vs St George when Benji kicked it out on the full in the last 10 minutes. So, 1 Grand Final win and 1 finals appearance.

Here we are in 2023 with Sheens back at the helm and have lost 2 from 2.

We have a forward pack that should be causing problems, but aren't.
Our outside backs are 'ok'.
Our playmakers aren't horrible by any means.

What are they being told to do? What is the strategy?
The Titans and Knights have read us like a book. We could attack a tryline for 20 sets straight and still not score.

I think Sheens's strategies are outdated and we are seeing the implications of this on the field. This is why we never made the finals more when he was coach first time around.
“Bodies in motion” has been adapted by every coach and team in the modern game. Everyone uses complex decoy run plays now, which was the Sheens revolution. It can’t really be reinvented - the best teams now sign skill players in key positions to implement variations on that system.

Our skill position players lack the tangible and intangible assets to make an attacking system work consistently and more importantly when it needs/has to. No other team in first grade would have scored 2 tries against a team down to 12 players for 30 mins (Dom Young sin bin and Saifiti send off).

On a tangibles front - running, kicking, passing - we are below average but not below first grade standard. Our intangibles - leadership, decision making, on field communication, football knowledge - are pretty close to not being first grade standard. There is no point in moving if you don’t know where you are going. Leadership directs you where to go - we have no leadership. No on field voices directing us, no effort plays in defence. We also have no footy smarts - forwards not playing off the ruck, backline players not spacing, poor offload selection.

Its pretty clear that the message going to the players is wrong. Cooper and Kenty (parasite) spoke about playing through the middle against 12 men. That does not take any football nous beyond a fan comprehension level to figure out. Api knew it when he was looking for middle runners into the A defender or in behind the ruck and all of our forwards were stagnant and spacing to where a half should be at first receiver. There were numerous other examples of this. Taking on the middle against a weak and tired defence is footy 101.

In terms of our attacking 20 movement our issue is the same. Our halves run across field looking for inside runners when the play is to straighten the attack to bring lead runner and second man runners, which should be your five eighth, into play. Instead we run diagonally and close all of the space, making any decoy/iso structure null and void. Eventually we look for unders runs into clustered defence set ups that put us in sideline danger, leaving no attacking opportunity.

Football is played straight, with power, and with the right pace, aggression and organisation, over the advantage line. Bodies in motion works when you have the defence on the back foot, attacking weak defenders who are out of position or short sides with tired players with overlaps. But this is still highly organised and spaced with players carrying our simple tasks that benefit a cohesive unit.

^ that is as simple as the message needs to be. That is what players learn and understand coming through the grades. How are we not delivering this to our players? Sheens and Benji’s messaging is wrong and they have a few weeks to sort it out before strong hands need to start making some tough decisions.

While we have been panned in the media this week they have stopped short of saying what that truly was on the weekend - the worst loss in the NRL era. We shouldn’t have to feel like that as a supporter base on a weekly basis and it is high time that we properly address it and make the attitude and personal changes to not remedy it immediately but at least be on the way to doing it. With some of our players still in the club, Justin Pascoe, Lee Hagipantellis and Tim Sheens at the helm that is not happening and that is not appropriate for a professional sports organisation.
 
The worry I have is that Sheens can't sort the mess and Marshall isn't up to it.
I think if Sheens were able to sort the mess we would have seen inklings of that in the matches already played. He's had a full off season and I understand most/many of these players are new to the combinations in the team but if you look at the Dolphins performance as an example of a team who are also new to each other, by comparison, there is nothing in our performances so far that indicates any coaching direction.
With Marshall, when has he ever ben an exponent of structured play? His skill was in reading the field and playing off the cuff. I don't have much faith in his ability to bring this rabble together.
In Benjis defence, let’s not forget that Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson , Cleary were not top drawer players but evolved their coaching to embrace the key fundamentals required to be successful.
Just because Benji was spontaneous in his playing days doesn’t mean he can study and learn what constitutes success, and it’s something all those guys have in common, man management. I’d say don’t get too strung up on special plays, get to really know your players and understand what makes them tick. Then, and only then, will you be in a position to extract the best from them.
If he gets that right he can be as successful as he wants to be.
 
In Benjis defence, let’s not forget that Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson , Cleary were not top drawer players but evolved their coaching to embrace the key fundamentals required to be successful.
Just because Benji was spontaneous in his playing days doesn’t mean he can study and learn what constitutes success, and it’s something all those guys have in common, man management. I’d say don’t get too strung up on special plays, get to really know your players and understand what makes them tick. Then, and only then, will you be in a position to extract the best from them.
If he gets that right he can be as successful as he wants to be.
Fair enough
 
we should judge it after the parramatta game that is 6 games
If we beat the dogs
If we beat a depleted Melbourne
Lose to Brisbane
Beat Parramatta

That is all possible and we are 3 and 6 and that would be a pass mark
 
While we have been panned in the media this week they have stopped short of saying what that truly was on the weekend - the worst loss in the NRL era. We shouldn’t have to feel like that as a supporter base on a weekly basis and it is high time that we properly address it and make the attitude and personal changes to not remedy it immediately but at least be on the way to doing it. With some of our players still in the club, Justin Pascoe, Lee Hagipantellis and Tim Sheens at the helm that is not happening and that is not appropriate for a professional sports organisation.

It was a good post but this point doesn't make any sense.

Let's be really clear about the changes we've made:-

1. Sacked the coach and replaced him with what appears to be a pretty good team.
2. Got rid of Hastings who was viewed as not being a guy to lead us forward.
3. Signed Api who is a gun hooker who wins a lot.
4. Signed IP who has been one of if not the best second rower in the comp for the past 2 years.
5. Signed Bateman who is an International.
6. Signed Klemmer who has consistently been one of the top props in the game.
7. We have new state of the art facilities.
8. The club is trying to get Moses here even though I can't see him coming and despite that performance I don't want here.

I don't even know what the problem is. Brooks seems to be the guy most often blamed but I watched him last week and he was the best in my opinion of a bad bunch. Doueihi who has been a fan favourite (including myself) has been terrible for a while. Last year was blamed on his lack of a pre-season and injury rehabilitation. That wasn't the problem. We have Wakeham who is a career reserve grader to come into the team and hopefully improve the situation.
 
It was a good post but this point doesn't make any sense.

Let's be really clear about the changes we've made:-

1. Sacked the coach and replaced him with what appears to be a pretty good team.
2. Got rid of Hastings who was viewed as not being a guy to lead us forward.
3. Signed Api who is a gun hooker who wins a lot.
4. Signed IP who has been one of if not the best second rower in the comp for the past 2 years.
5. Signed Bateman who is an International.
6. Signed Klemmer who has consistently been one of the top props in the game.
7. We have new state of the art facilities.
8. The club is trying to get Moses here even though I can't see him coming and despite that performance I don't want here.

I don't even know what the problem is. Brooks seems to be the guy most often blamed but I watched him last week and he was the best in my opinion of a bad bunch. Doueihi who has been a fan favourite (including myself) has been terrible for a while. Last year was blamed on his lack of a pre-season and injury rehabilitation. That wasn't the problem. We have Wakeham who is a career reserve grader to come into the team and hopefully improve the situation.
Brooks tangibles are great - he is fast, he is a good defender, he is a good support runner, great kicking technique and an underrated midfield high ball field position kicker. I’ve always backed these abilities and hoped that the mental component - the thing that will tie it all together will come to fruition and he will take that next step but he hasn’t. He doesn’t organise because he doesn’t talk in general. As a half and the longest tenured player on the team that just doesn’t cut it.

Would we have won on the weekend with a vocal organising half like Hastings or a generally misguided instinctive half like Brooks? We lost - against 12 men - at one of our spiritual homes.

Api is a great player who relies on the organisation of others. Who are the voices at Penrith - Yeo, Cleary and sometimes Luai. Api succeeded in an organised system with clear leadership. He has elite tangible ability but his intangibles are not as good as an organising hooker like Ben Hunt, Cameron Smith, Farrah, Michael Monaghan.

Papali’i is a damaging runner and great player off direct, cerebral halves. He is currently on an edge with Luke Brooks who is more often than not none of those things.

Klemmer is a good signing who is of no consequence to our organisation on the football field and the same can be said of John Bateman. They are ball runners and impact players who play their best football under strong on field leadership. Isaiah is the same - he wasn’t even playing first grade for the Warriors before the Eels picked him up. Goes into a good system on and off the field (Eels) and maximises his potential.

We signed well for sure but we don’t have what we NEED and without that we aren’t going to win.

Luke Brooks has played more games than Luke Keary and there is literal daylight between them in terms of achievement and capacity to achieve. Physically Brooks has him covered - mentally Brooks makes Keary look like Einstein.

Investment in the club and facilities is absolutely a step in the right direction. Undeniable - it is fantastic work by the club and they should be commended. But we have people and attitudes attached to these people still in our club that make that investment useless until we properly reorient ourselves and break free of the past. Last season and the first two weeks of this one are the proof.
 
The worry I have is that Sheens can't sort the mess and Marshall isn't up to it.
I think if Sheens were able to sort the mess we would have seen inklings of that in the matches already played. He's had a full off season and I understand most/many of these players are new to the combinations in the team but if you look at the Dolphins performance as an example of a team who are also new to each other, by comparison, there is nothing in our performances so far that indicates any coaching direction.
With Marshall, when has he ever ben an exponent of structured play? His skill was in reading the field and playing off the cuff. I don't have much faith in his ability to bring this rabble together.
Your right, though I don't think one off-season can even come close to sort this rabble out. We have an ingrained soft, loser mentality
 
He doesn’t organise because he doesn’t talk in general. As a half and the longest tenured player on the team that just doesn’t cut it.

Is there any proof of this. I've heard him talk and he talks pretty good at least compared to myself. I assume he talks a lot better than most of the posters on this forum.

Are you stating we are so bad solely because of Brooks ? If so why haven't Doueihi, Madden or Hastings fixed the issue ?
 
we should judge it after the parramatta game that is 6 games
If we beat the dogs
If we beat a depleted Melbourne
Lose to Brisbane
Beat Parramatta

That is all possible and we are 3 and 6 and that would be a pass mark
Some very big ifs there JT but I’d be ecstatic if we were 3/6 . Let’s start Sunday and go from there.
 
Is there any proof of this. I've heard him talk and he talks pretty good at least compared to myself. I assume he talks a lot better than most of the posters on this forum.

Are you stating we are so bad solely because of Brooks ? If so why haven't Doueihi, Madden or Hastings fixed the issue ?
If you look at our left edge attack last season with Hastings and Brooks playing on the same side with Brooks at second receiver we were actually quite good. I would not say that if we weren’t but we truly looked like we had figured something out.

If you put a player cam on Hastings you would see him talking to everyone in his immediate structure including Brooks. Hastings whose tangibles generally are worse than Brooks - way worse defender, way slower, terrible long kicking technique - has much greater intangibles - on field voice, footy nous, general intelligence - which is what we desperately lack.

Jock Madden was objectively worse than Douhei, Brooks and Hastings so I am not sure if he figures in this discussion.

A statement that I will make is that we would have won that game on the weekend with Hastings in our team. Douhei would have been given long kicking duties to make up for that deficiency in Hastings game and both halves would have played on the openside of the ruck to compensate for Douhei’s frequent positional and decision making blunders.
 
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If you look at our left edge attack last season with Hastings and Brooks playing on the same side with Brooks at second receiver we we actually quite good. I would not say that if we weren’t but we truly looked like we had figured something out.

If you put a player cam on Hastings you would see him talking to everyone in his immediate structure including Brooks. Hastings whose tangibles generally are worse than Brooks - way worse defender, way slower, terrible long kicking technique - has much greater intangibles - on field voice, footy nous, general intelligence - which is what we desperately lack.

Jock Madden was objectively worse than Douhei, Brooks and Hastings so I am not sure if he figures in this discussion.

A statement that I will make is that we would have won that game on the weekend with Hastings in our team. Douhei would have been given long kicking duties to make up for that deficiency in Hastings game and both halves would have played on the openside of the ruck to compensate for Douhei’s frequent positional and decision making blunders.
Very astute observations, I think you’re right.
So how do we get him back from the Knights ?
 
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If you look at our left edge attack last season with Hastings and Brooks playing on the same side with Brooks at second receiver we we actually quite good.

He is playing the same role. He did that on the weekend.

A statement that I will make is that we would have won that game on the weekend with Hastings in our team. Douhei would have been given long kicking duties to make up for that deficiency in Hastings game and both halves would have played on the openside of the ruck to compensate for Douhei’s frequent positional and decision making blunders.

This is clearly not true. Last year it was obvious that Brooks was the best long kicker in the team so that point is clearly wrong. The second point about Hastings winning us that game might be true but based on our results last season the evidence suggests it's not true.
 
He is playing the same role. He did that on the weekend.



This is clearly not true. Last year it was obvious that Brooks was the best long kicker in the team so that point is clearly wrong. The second point about Hastings winning us that game might be true but based on our results last season the evidence suggests it's not true.
The results last year also tell us we didn’t win a game with Brooks at 7.
 
He is playing the same role. He did that on the weekend.



This is clearly not true. Last year it was obvious that Brooks was the best long kicker in the team so that point is clearly wrong. The second point about Hastings winning us that game might be true but based on our results last season the evidence suggests it's not true.
I wonder that the same Earl. Who fed Brooks the ball in the left shift other than API that replaced the Hastings pass of last year and if Brooks was playing the Hastings role this year in that same scenario who the hell was he able to pass it to which would of done what Brooks did last year in the same situation?
 
“Bodies in motion” has been adapted by every coach and team in the modern game. Everyone uses complex decoy run plays now, which was the Sheens revolution. It can’t really be reinvented - the best teams now sign skill players in key positions to implement variations on that system.

Our skill position players lack the tangible and intangible assets to make an attacking system work consistently and more importantly when it needs/has to. No other team in first grade would have scored 2 tries against a team down to 12 players for 30 mins (Dom Young sin bin and Saifiti send off).

On a tangibles front - running, kicking, passing - we are below average but not below first grade standard. Our intangibles - leadership, decision making, on field communication, football knowledge - are pretty close to not being first grade standard. There is no point in moving if you don’t know where you are going. Leadership directs you where to go - we have no leadership. No on field voices directing us, no effort plays in defence. We also have no footy smarts - forwards not playing off the ruck, backline players not spacing, poor offload selection.

Its pretty clear that the message going to the players is wrong. Cooper and Kenty (parasite) spoke about playing through the middle against 12 men. That does not take any football nous beyond a fan comprehension level to figure out. Api knew it when he was looking for middle runners into the A defender or in behind the ruck and all of our forwards were stagnant and spacing to where a half should be at first receiver. There were numerous other examples of this. Taking on the middle against a weak and tired defence is footy 101.

In terms of our attacking 20 movement our issue is the same. Our halves run across field looking for inside runners when the play is to straighten the attack to bring lead runner and second man runners, which should be your five eighth, into play. Instead we run diagonally and close all of the space, making any decoy/iso structure null and void. Eventually we look for unders runs into clustered defence set ups that put us in sideline danger, leaving no attacking opportunity.

Football is played straight, with power, and with the right pace, aggression and organisation, over the advantage line. Bodies in motion works when you have the defence on the back foot, attacking weak defenders who are out of position or short sides with tired players with overlaps. But this is still highly organised and spaced with players carrying our simple tasks that benefit a cohesive unit.

^ that is as simple as the message needs to be. That is what players learn and understand coming through the grades. How are we not delivering this to our players? Sheens and Benji’s messaging is wrong and they have a few weeks to sort it out before strong hands need to start making some tough decisions.

While we have been panned in the media this week they have stopped short of saying what that truly was on the weekend - the worst loss in the NRL era. We shouldn’t have to feel like that as a supporter base on a weekly basis and it is high time that we properly address it and make the attitude and personal changes to not remedy it immediately but at least be on the way to doing it. With some of our players still in the club, Justin Pascoe, Lee Hagipantellis and Tim Sheens at the helm that is not happening and that is not appropriate for a professional sports organisation.


Football is dead.
 
In Benjis defence, let’s not forget that Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson , Cleary were not top drawer players but evolved their coaching to embrace the key fundamentals required to be successful.
Just because Benji was spontaneous in his playing days doesn’t mean he can study and learn what constitutes success, and it’s something all those guys have in common, man management. I’d say don’t get too strung up on special plays, get to really know your players and understand what makes them tick. Then, and only then, will you be in a position to extract the best from them.
If he gets that right he can be as successful as he wants to be.
Just grabbed my well worn NFL coaching manual I picked up in the States many years ago and found the following passage.
“ the smartest coaches know not only how to establish, and maintain, player rapport, also how and when to say the right thing.
That’s the difference between an ordinary and a superior coach,- knowing what to say, to both the team and individuals, and when to say it”.

And that is a very difficult thing to accomplish coz it’s built on empathy not ego.
 
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