Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

[TrueTiger]

I still cant understand all the garbage and insults to Ivan when initially he has signed a 3 year contract with the WTs…he got the team to a 9th spot finish when they were touted wooden spooners or bottom 4 contenders in his first year,he has said he will honour his contract for the next 2 years...that is all he has to do,where ever he goes after that is his business..if he wants to stay sobeit,if he moves on sobeit..
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As long as he fulfils his agreement and OBLIGATIONS during his contractual term,he has honoured his contract..no more no less..
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The rest of this drama is speculation,innuendo and heresay..LET THE CLUB MAKE AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT EITHER WAY so people can calm the nerves..as I said before I don't care if Ivan stays or goes as long as he fulfils his binding contract....

I agree with you to a point but the difference is too much attention has been brought on Ivan and his future which has therefore created doubt amongst the fans, players and club in general. The media and Penrith have ruined Ivan's ability to rebuild the team which is why he was brought here. 2 years is too long to know your coach isn't staying at the club and that's the main issue.

I understand what you are saying,however he has signed a 3 year contract with 2 years to go…he legally doesnt have to stay after it expires,no matter where he wants to go or who he wants to coach..it is a 3 year deal,that is all he is obligated to fulfill...

 

[magpiecol]

**The man's own son wants to play elsewhere.**

Thats the kicker.

I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?

Six million or so is a pretty good incentive also.

 

[Needaname]

I’m waiting for someone to dispute my idea of coming to an agreement for the coming season that the tigers and Ivan part way at the end of 2019\. I believe that is the best outcome for all. It’s like meeting at an even price point when buying real estate.

If we can't get Madge or option 2 that will happen

Says who?

And if Madge is keen on getting back into coaching NRL I think we are most certainly the best prospect. It would be a perfect marriage. Madge wants to coach a team into a dynasty, senior success and sustainability through junior development. He is looking for a club that is stabbe and all the back office are signing to the same hymn sheet (his words not mine).
Sounds perfect right.

But despite pleas from members of the media, only Manly is talked about as his next destination which does not suit his list of preferences.

Why?
Cause we refuse to make a move whilst our current coach sits idle by.

Hmmm.

So how on earth could we be signing Madge for this next season?

Since when has our name ever been synonymous with Dynasties

Never,
But it’s what we want right?
And from what I heard from Madge’s interview on one of the Marty Johns show that he is keen to take a club from the ground up, build it for success whilst also provisioning it for sustained success.
Do you not want a coach with those qualities in mind?

 

[NT_Tiger]

**The man's own son wants to play elsewhere.**

Thats the kicker.

I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?

I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.

I dont agree at all.
Ivan has been hired on the basis that he will make WT better than Panthers over time. That's the critical bit, **over time**. Wests Tigers are at the beginning of a(nother) rebuild courtesy of Ivan Cleary. The Panthers have been rebuilt and are **now** close to challenging for top honours.
So daddy can't promise sonny that he will be challenging for a GF berth sooner than later whereas Panthers can. It is drawing a very long bow to say that Nathan lacks confidence in his fathers abilities and therefore other players will also.

 

[Elderslie_Tiger]

It's time for WESTS TIGERS to push the issue by either offering Ivan an extension of his current contract until 2022 or by changing direction by appointing a manager of football operations either Madge or Neil Henry if Ivan doesn't want to extend and isn't happen with the change of direction we can sell him off to Penriff a win/win situation.We end up with coaching stability and some cash or player swap Gus gets what he wants.Unfortunatly Ivan is not much use to us if he doesn't want to be with us beyond 2020 cut our losses move on.

 

[NT_Tiger]

I still cant understand all the garbage and insults to Ivan when initially he has signed a 3 year contract with the WTs…he got the team to a 9th spot finish when they were touted wooden spooners or bottom 4 contenders in his first year,he has said he will honour his contract for the next 2 years...that is all he has to do,where ever he goes after that is his business..if he wants to stay sobeit,if he moves on sobeit..
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As long as he fulfils his agreement and OBLIGATIONS during his contractual term,he has honoured his contract..no more no less..
\
\
The rest of this drama is speculation,innuendo and heresay..**LET THE CLUB MAKE AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT** EITHER WAY so people can calm the nerves..as I said before I don't care if Ivan stays or goes as long as he fulfils his binding contract....

I believe that Pascoe said in an interview lately that nothing had changed. IE Ivan will be coaching WT next year.

 

[innsaneink]

**The man's own son wants to play elsewhere.**

Thats the kicker.

I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?

I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.

That's really stretching a long bow imo….

You don't get as far in the game as Ivan has without confidence.... And maybe, just maybe... He's allowing his son to be an adult, make his own decisions for what he believes will make him happy

Talk about twisting things :unamused:

 

[NT_Tiger]

I thought it interesting that the father clause was removed from Nathan’s contract. You’d think that would reduce Ivan’s bargaining power for any future contract with the Panthers. If Ciraldo has a successful 2019 and the Panthers are on an upward trend then it’ll be difficult to change that by removing him.

Unless Ivan has already signed from 2021 onwards…

I really don't see why Gould would want Ivan back. To me it is evident that Gould did not think he was the coach to move the team forward beyond the rebuild. That team is now within striking distance of a Grand Final. I don't see Gould as being overly sentimental, so bringing Ivan back for a 'feel good' story would not be the first thing in his agenda. Gould has what he wants, he doesn't need the daddy distraction.

Gould needs Ivan at some stage to get/keep Nathan. Ivan wants to coach his son and it will be at penrith, however any real coaching or recruitment decisions wont be made by Ivan and he would know that.

I don't think he does need Ivan. I read somewhere that there was no daddy clause in Nathans contract.

 

[Russell]

Thats the kicker.

I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?

I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.

That's really stretching a long bow imo….

You don't get as far in the game as Ivan has without confidence.... And maybe, just maybe... He's allowing his son to be an adult, make his own decisions for what he believes will make him happy

Talk about twisting things :unamused:

Agree with you Ink - what am I doing?

 

[jirskyr]

Thats the kicker.

I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?

I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.

That's really stretching a long bow imo….

You don't get as far in the game as Ivan has without confidence.... And maybe, just maybe... He's allowing his son to be an adult, make his own decisions for what he believes will make him happy

Talk about twisting things :unamused:

I agree with ink.

Nathan is old enough to make his own decisions and it's evident that he has the talent to play where he chooses, rather than being dependent on the good graces of his father.

On record that he'd love to be coached by his Dad, but he's just signed a deal that keeps him very well paid at his current club for the next 6 years (until end 2024). Could Tigers have matched the value and duration of such a deal? I'd argue that most Tigers fans are happy that we did not, imagine the uproar if we'd signed Nathan to a 6-year deal.

It's different for Penrith, he's a foundation junior player there and has come through the grades with lots of their other juniors. Nathan currently has more intrinsic value to Penrith than to Tigers, same as Luke Brooks has more stock with Tigers than elsewhere.

I personally don't think it says anything about Tigers or Ivan's coaching. In fact in his Q&A with nrl.com, Nathan stated that he felt Penrith weren't far off a grand final, but also that Tigers were not so far off either, in his opinion.

Quite feasible the kid just preferred not to leave his junior club and his mates, and was offered a very long and lucrative deal that made it easy enough to sign on. Any talk of moving to Tigers was media speculation only, not confirmed by the club, and almost certainly the Clearys knew such talk would drive up Nathan's price.

Going off happy's conspiracy post, perhaps the entire noise about Ivan coaching Nathan and possibly bringing him to the Tigers was simply to drive up his price at Penrith? Unlikely, but it certainly doesn't harm Nathan's stock.

And lastly Nathan will be 26 when his new deal expires. His Dad will do well to still be coaching a FG side there, as coaches don't get 8-year runs without some level of success. But, barring injury or massive form drop, Nathan has at least 1 or 2 decent contracts left in his career.

 

[Spartan117]

All said and done congrats to the Clearys

This past few months has secured both their employment for the foreseeable futures.

I can see it all being discussed at the dinner table.

Coached by dad or not - It isnt that big a deal.

 

[The_Patriot]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

 

[NT_Tiger]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.

 

[jadtiger]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.

Well said

 

[innsaneink]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought… Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

 

[The_Patriot]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.

Ohh did Nathan say we arent far off finals football. Thats nice of him.

 

[The_Patriot]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought… Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.

 

[JD Tiger]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought… Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.

Add to that rumours put forward by reputable sources (the QUEEN) that this Penrith saga has cost us at least one potential recruit already, and that the WT club are dealing with it quite seriously in that if Ivan is making other long term plans than we are looking at other short term plans.

I'll feel a lot better about all this, when the following few things happen:

1) We re-sign Brooks, (I question the delay?)
2) We sign at least 1 more (preferably 2 or 3) very solid decent first graders
3) Ivan makes clear that he is not going to Penrith in 2021, that he is committed to WT long term. How this exactly happens, I don't precisely know, but it needs to be sorted somehow. Simply saying I don't respond to rumours is not good enough, as the rumours have certainly damaged his integrity (as an unsubstantiated untrue rumour can damage the integrity of a school teacher)
4) Ivan needs to stop NOW saying or implying any innuendo about him coaching his son. Now it implies that he wants to leave, so he cannot make that innuendo anymore. Focus on WT first thank you.

 

[NT_Tiger]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought… Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.

'Most good judges' obviously got it wrong, indeed like lots of other things.

 

[TheDaBoss]

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.
Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.

Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought… Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.

Add to that rumours put forward by reputable sources (the QUEEN) that this Penrith saga has cost us at least one potential recruit already, and that the WT club are dealing with it quite seriously in that if Ivan is making other long term plans than we are looking at other short term plans.

I'll feel a lot better about all this, when the following few things happen:

1) We re-sign Brooks, (I question the delay?)
2) We sign at least 1 more (preferably 2 or 3) very solid decent first graders
3) Ivan makes clear that he is not going to Penrith in 2021, that he is committed to WT long term. How this exactly happens, I don't precisely know, but it needs to be sorted somehow. Simply saying I don't respond to rumours is not good enough, as the rumours have certainly damaged his integrity (as an unsubstantiated untrue rumour can damage the integrity of a school teacher)
4) Ivan needs to stop NOW saying or implying any innuendo about him coaching his son. Now it implies that he wants to leave, so he cannot make that innuendo anymore. Focus on WT first thank you.

Yep
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We can forget about NC for quite a while because ivan reckons he just wants what is best for him so yeah.

There are plenty of talented young guns who are off contract so surely we can lure at least one of them? cant we :brick: