Madge vs JT vs Potter vs Cleary

[jirskyr]

Nobody wanted to lose Cleary. I think everyone was "on the bus" right up til it was clear he wasn't and it blindsided everybody. The reason he's so maligned is because how much promise we had with him. It's easy to say he sucks with hindsight but his signings hadn't completely proven to be duds by then and also if we kept him I'd say we'd currently have Nathan Cleary in our side and who knows who else.

So yeah I'd have preferred to have kept Cleary. I think we'd be in a better spot right now. But also Madge has my support. He's a good coach with a tough job ahead of him and needs all the support he can get. I don't see any value in churning yet another coach because our club is such a basket case. Give him at least 3, maybe 4 years. Nobody else is gonna come in next year or the year after and immediately "put their stamp" on the joint. I'd say give him til the season after Mbye's contract us up personally.

I think this is true, except that we were never getting Nathan - and as soon as that became evident it was a matter of time for Ivan.
We needed to go all in for Nathan.
Bloody Brooks. :face_palm:

Brooks played very well under Ivan. Ivan gets the best from his Panther halves. He also has strong interpersonal skills. I would think Maguire needs to learn from Ivan in this aspect of coaching.

While I'm at it, i'll also suggest we need to look. at the style of football we play. Johns hit on it a few weeks ago when on 9 he said WTs won't make the finals because the style of football played is physically demanding.

Are all the posts for a forward leader may be related?

Strong interpersonal skills.
Now I have heard it all. Jeez some people have short memories

It's a fact.

Sorry that's not a fact, that's an opinion.

 

[Elderslie_Tiger]

Not sure how many times I’ve said that but you can’t expect instant results. Our cap is screwed, no finals in 9 years, our roster is big average and no big name players want to be here.

What Madge is going takes time and unfortunately as a consequence we will struggle on the field for a while longer. It’s a lot better than Cleary who screwed up our entire salary cap and we could barely score a point under him.

Gotta wait until the rebuild is complete to judge the coach fully

What do you mean by instant? 9 years since finals? almost
2 full seasons of Maguire in charge? Some get jack of being told to be patient. I remember I was told to be patient in 2014. I even remember the night. We’d been rolled by Manly at Brookie. Things were going to be great in a year or two. They weren’t. So what reason do I have to believe it now? Cos Madge hasn’t had a hand in signing 6 or 7 players to round out his squad? That’s going to finally make those calls for patience a reality. Really?

9 years since we’ve made finals, but Madge has only been here 18 months. I know it’s hard to stay patient after 9 years but you have to think about it like we started over just a season And a half ago

If you look at the bigger picture Madge is setting us up to go good in the future and slowly building his squad. Gonna suck until that’s completed but that’s the only way, unless you’d prefer the Cleary style of signing average players on huge contracts to try and go for an instant fix

9 years since we made the semis theres that number again.

 

[Strider]

From my perspective the best we have performed after Sheens is under Cleary. Feels like we could have easily made finals that year, but this year its more like, will we beat Titans or not end of year hehe =p I'd love to pretend he is a crap coach and we are better off, but I think he is one of the better coaches in the comp. Madge is yet to prove himself at Tigers.

 

[jirskyr]

Nobody wanted to lose Cleary. I think everyone was "on the bus" right up til it was clear he wasn't and it blindsided everybody. The reason he's so maligned is because how much promise we had with him. It's easy to say he sucks with hindsight but his signings hadn't completely proven to be duds by then and also if we kept him I'd say we'd currently have Nathan Cleary in our side and who knows who else.

So yeah I'd have preferred to have kept Cleary. I think we'd be in a better spot right now. But also Madge has my support. He's a good coach with a tough job ahead of him and needs all the support he can get. I don't see any value in churning yet another coach because our club is such a basket case. Give him at least 3, maybe 4 years. Nobody else is gonna come in next year or the year after and immediately "put their stamp" on the joint. I'd say give him til the season after Mbye's contract us up personally.

I think this is true, except that we were never getting Nathan - and as soon as that became evident it was a matter of time for Ivan.
We needed to go all in for Nathan.
Bloody Brooks. :face_palm:

Brooks played very well under Ivan. Ivan gets the best from his Panther halves. He also has strong interpersonal skills. I would think Maguire needs to learn from Ivan in this aspect of coaching.

While I'm at it, i'll also suggest we need to look. at the style of football we play. Johns hit on it a few weeks ago when on 9 he said WTs won't make the finals because the style of football played is physically demanding.

Are all the posts for a forward leader may be related?

Strong interpersonal skills.
Now I have heard it all. Jeez some people have short memories

It's a fact.

Are you referring to the time that he text message to some players when he decided to jump ship

His decisions surrounding his contractual issue are a separate matter.

Clearly during the season he had the team performing well with two victories against the Storm and Brooks on fire.

Seriously paws stop

Truth hurts.

Maybe you can say, at best, Ivan appears to have good relationships with his players, when he chooses to invest himself in it. I think if you asked the Tigers players now about their opinion of Ivan, it would be a totally different thing compared to Rd 1 2018. Also you have to question your "relationship" with someone who seems to be on your side, then abandons you the minute an opportunity arises elsewhere.

In terms of results, Cleary had us 5W-1L after 6 rounds, yeah, but then he had us 2W-8L in the following 10 rounds. Finished the season 5W-3L for a total 12W-12L, which is pretty standard fare for Tigers.

And it's interesting that in 2019 Cleary had Penrith go on a 7-match winning streak, which was great but could not undo the 2W-8L start to the season. Basically same roster as 2020. And the Penrith side had already played finals football 3 years running (and 4 out of 5 years) before Cleary arrived, so the foundation was there for him.

 

[jirskyr]

From my perspective the best we have performed after Sheens is under Cleary. Feels like we could have easily made finals that year, but this year its more like, will we beat Titans or not end of year hehe =p I'd love to pretend he is a crap coach and we are better off, but I think he is one of the better coaches in the comp. Madge is yet to prove himself at Tigers.

I can't really understand this, because season 2018 and season 2019 were almost identical in terms of win rates. But in 2018 the top teams were so even that we finished 6 points short of 8th, with 8th spot having 15 W 9L.

Then Cleary quit. So it would remain to be seen how he would have done in 2019 had he stuck around.

 

[Sco77y]

As for Ivan I actually think he learned from his mistakes with us and has made some astute signings at Penrith and given youth a chance which he never did here. They will probably win the premiership, I wish we had a juniors system like theirs

It’s also been reported that he walked into a club running like a well oiled machine after Gould laid the groundwork. I’m sure Ivan is also reaping the benefits of this and the general position the club found itself in when he arrived.

The moves he made last year were great, gone from 10th to being the best team in the premiership. Cleary has done a great job.

I agree to some extent, however I still believe that when you have more to work with that also plays a large part, so I'm reluctant to give him too much credit. During his time at our club he handled the 'Big 4' (lol) saga quite well I thought, and I'm sure most were happy to see his hard stance on Woods and Tedesco in particular. However his recruitment decisions after that, with a large cap at his disposal were nothing short of appalling - and that part is all on him. To be fair, it's possible he had a longer term plan, and may have been able to use these players more effectively, since he's the one who chose them, but it sure has left us in a hole - that's all we can judge on really.

 

[avocadoontoast]

As for Ivan I actually think he learned from his mistakes with us and has made some astute signings at Penrith and given youth a chance which he never did here. They will probably win the premiership, I wish we had a juniors system like theirs

It’s also been reported that he walked into a club running like a well oiled machine after Gould laid the groundwork. I’m sure Ivan is also reaping the benefits of this and the general position the club found itself in when he arrived.

The moves he made last year were great, gone from 10th to being the best team in the premiership. Cleary has done a great job.

I agree to some extent, however I still believe that when you have more to work with that also plays a large part, so I'm reluctant to give him too much credit. During his time at our club he handled the 'Big 4' (lol) saga quite well I thought, and I'm sure most were happy to see his hard stance on Woods and Tedesco in particular. However his recruitment decisions after that, with a large cap at his disposal were nothing short of appalling - and that part is all on him. To be fair, it's possible he had a longer term plan, and may have been able to use these players more effectively, since he's the one who chose them, but it sure has left us in a hole - that's all we can judge on really.

Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the guy. I think he's a rat. But i'm just saying that I think he's done a good job with Penrith this year, and i'm sure their fans would agree.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

he has had good results ivan the warriors teams were average and he did well with us. Last year was ordinary with penrith but thisnyear he is flying and he had brooks playing well. The guy is a solid coach, same a sbrian smith is it is not always about premierships. Paul Green and the late steve folkes won comps and inwouldnt call them good coaches

I remember at press conferences Cleary had the press engaged through his delivery style. I am sure the players felt the same way at the time and his current players do as well.

I question his handling of the Moses' contract issue and wonder if he felt remorse in view of Nathan not coming to the club. Moses should still be with us.

 

[Telltails]

he has had good results ivan the warriors teams were average and he did well with us. Last year was ordinary with penrith but thisnyear he is flying and he had brooks playing well. The guy is a solid coach, same a sbrian smith is it is not always about premierships. Paul Green and the late steve folkes won comps and inwouldnt call them good coaches

I remember at press conferences Cleary had the press engaged through his delivery style. I am sure the players felt the same way at the time and his current players do as well.

I question his handling of the Moses' contract issue and wonder if he felt remorse in view of Nathan not coming to the club. Moses should still be with us.

Really? - I think it's like drawing blood listening to Ivan. He may be different in the sheds but he is like "cardboard" in terms of being engaging to me, with a touch of superiority.
He gives an air of hating the press when he talks to them - with reason I suppose.
Regardless I have a low opinion of him and not sure how anyone could believe any thing he says apart from Nathan of course.

 

[CarltonDry]

Cleary has taken an average warriors side to a GF, and has penrith firing and took us to a whisker of the 8 last year.

Cleary had two of the greatest forwards of the NRL era, Steve Price and Ruben Wiki, at his disposal from the get-go. The Warriors of the 2007-2012 era had a really good pathways setup, which is how they were able to become a force in those years. They had a stupid amount of good talent come then, names such as Ben Matulino, Russell Packer, Kevin Locke, Sonny Fai, Elijah Taylor, Glen Fisiiahi, Ben Henry and Shaun Johnson. They built year-by-year, making astute signings that fitted their squad to compliment the young-guns coming through. Guys such as Brett Seymour, Brent Tate, Jacob Lillyman, Krisnan Inu, James Maloney, Shaun Berrigan and Feleti Mateo all filtered in slowly over the years.

Now here's the difference. The Warriors back then were actually struggling to spend their salary cap. Most players' contracts in the team were so heavily front-loaded because they didn't have enough good players to use the whole cap. It meant they had ample money to sign just about anyone who would come, provided they were the right fit. Guys like Tate and Mateo got handsome paydays.

Back to us. We don't have this luxury. We are missing out on so many players due to cap mismanagement, which I know we're all aware of. It means when we do have space, we might spend it on a player just cause they're free (Mbye), not because they're the right fit. Back then, the Warriors were smart and bided their time until they were able to make the right moves. Honestly, we should be doing something similar. In fairness, the only players we missed out on (that we wanted) since Madge started were Zac Lomax, Jai Arrow and Latrell Mitchell. The only real miss is Lomax, who we missed cause St George offered him a stupidly long and expensive contract. The other two had absurd asking prices.

Here is the positive: The transfer market will be quieter than usual this off season (for signing players 2021). The reason? COVID-19. Lots of players have recently signed deals based on job security. Next season (signing players for 2022), the market will explode. There are a high number of good players who will be available to be signed from November this year. The good news? We will be cashed up, while few other clubs will be in a similar position.

On another note, the Warriors really should have became a powerhouse after that. No idea what went wrong. The talent well dried up and the next coach that came in had no clue. Had Cleary stayed, there is a good chance they would have won a premiership by now.

Also missed out on DWZ and Tim Mannah ?

 

[JC99]

Not sure how many times I’ve said that but you can’t expect instant results. Our cap is screwed, no finals in 9 years, our roster is big average and no big name players want to be here.

What Madge is going takes time and unfortunately as a consequence we will struggle on the field for a while longer. It’s a lot better than Cleary who screwed up our entire salary cap and we could barely score a point under him.

Gotta wait until the rebuild is complete to judge the coach fully

What do you mean by instant? 9 years since finals? almost
2 full seasons of Maguire in charge? Some get jack of being told to be patient. I remember I was told to be patient in 2014. I even remember the night. We’d been rolled by Manly at Brookie. Things were going to be great in a year or two. They weren’t. So what reason do I have to believe it now? Cos Madge hasn’t had a hand in signing 6 or 7 players to round out his squad? That’s going to finally make those calls for patience a reality. Really?

9 years since we’ve made finals, but Madge has only been here 18 months. I know it’s hard to stay patient after 9 years but you have to think about it like we started over just a season And a half ago

If you look at the bigger picture Madge is setting us up to go good in the future and slowly building his squad. Gonna suck until that’s completed but that’s the only way, unless you’d prefer the Cleary style of signing average players on huge contracts to try and go for an instant fix

9 years since we made the semis theres that number again.

What about it? It’s true, no?

 

[jirskyr]

he has had good results ivan the warriors teams were average and he did well with us. Last year was ordinary with penrith but thisnyear he is flying and he had brooks playing well. The guy is a solid coach, same a sbrian smith is it is not always about premierships. Paul Green and the late steve folkes won comps and inwouldnt call them good coaches

I remember at press conferences Cleary had the press engaged through his delivery style. I am sure the players felt the same way at the time and his current players do as well.

I question his handling of the Moses' contract issue and wonder if he felt remorse in view of Nathan not coming to the club. Moses should still be with us.

Mitch Moses be damned, I don't care how Cleary handled his contract, he dogged it. He's a dog, always will be, same with his mate Matto and Glenn Morrison. You can handle yourself with pride and respect, or you can be a dog and go throwing matches, skipping training etc. Slimey Fart did the latter and that Souths match in 2017 is one of the more abject efforts I have ever seen in my life as a football fan.

re Cleary's press conferences, what about the one where he read from a sheet to deny he was going to Penrith? Certainly goes to show you can't really take too much out of what you "see" at press conferences.

 

[TheDaBoss]

Is this a case of good cop bad cop

 

[Needaname]

Nobody wanted to lose Cleary. I think everyone was "on the bus" right up til it was clear he wasn't and it blindsided everybody. The reason he's so maligned is because how much promise we had with him. It's easy to say he sucks with hindsight but his signings hadn't completely proven to be duds by then and also if we kept him I'd say we'd currently have Nathan Cleary in our side and who knows who else.

So yeah I'd have preferred to have kept Cleary. I think we'd be in a better spot right now. But also Madge has my support. He's a good coach with a tough job ahead of him and needs all the support he can get. I don't see any value in churning yet another coach because our club is such a basket case. Give him at least 3, maybe 4 years. Nobody else is gonna come in next year or the year after and immediately "put their stamp" on the joint. I'd say give him til the season after Mbye's contract us up personally.

I think this is true, except that we were never getting Nathan - and as soon as that became evident it was a matter of time for Ivan.
We needed to go all in for Nathan.
Bloody Brooks. :face_palm:

Brooks played very well under Ivan. Ivan gets the best from his Panther halves. He also has strong interpersonal skills. I would think Maguire needs to learn from Ivan in this aspect of coaching.

While I'm at it, i'll also suggest we need to look. at the style of football we play. Johns hit on it a few weeks ago when on 9 he said WTs won't make the finals because the style of football played is physically demanding.

Are all the posts for a forward leader may be related?

Strong interpersonal skills.
Now I have heard it all. Jeez some people have short memories

It's a fact.

Are you referring to the time that he text message to some players when he decided to jump ship

His decisions surrounding his contractual issue are a separate matter.

Clearly during the season he had the team performing well with two victories against the Storm and Brooks on fire.

Seriously paws stop

No I’ll agree with that.
Cleary had us playing a particular game plan for each team. We started to taper away in the middle of season as other teams improved though. But no different to Maguire in trying to get the best efforts out of his players.
Difference with Madge seems to be style. It doesn’t adjust as per the opponent. We are bash and barge and hope for a quick play the ball an out of position defender and capitalise off that.
Whislt I don’t agree with the bombs going up at the end of each set. The method of defending is supposed to be faultless.
Give the fullback a set line with no space, follow that with 4 tackles in their half with their response being a kick down field that is scooped up half way down putting us in an even better position to attack.
Just like chess. Work the pawns in position and let the big players take advantage.
Problem is some of our pawns just don’t do their job and make errors like the following.
Not square at marker.
Not being back 10.
Holding down or flipping over a player in the ruck.
Ineffective tackling and having players run 10post meters.
Not wrapping up a loose arm.
Not dominating the contact and positioning the player on their back.
And this is all in DEFENCE where our games are lost every time.
The last time I saw a game like the last two weeks was vs the Titans.
So we come out the following weeks and our forwards stand up.
So what they can only manage that effort for a total of 2 months.
Pathetic. Madge is on the right path. These boys need to get their heads in the game and their body’s will follow...