Moltzen Staying Or Going

[Yossarian]

if wests tigers never sent his management and doust or whoever at the dragons release forms signed by tim and humphreys he was never released, as far as im aware this did not take place

That's fine but it looks a bit strange waiting until now to pipe up about it. All this was known some time ago and yet until yesterday we were led to believe Moltzen had a legitimate contract with the Dragons for next year.

 

[smoking_gun]

if wests tigers never sent his management and doust or whoever at the dragons release forms signed by tim and humphreys he was never released, as far as im aware this did not take place

That's fine but it looks a bit strange waiting until now to pipe up about it. All this was known some time ago and yet until yesterday we were led to believe Moltzen had a legitimate contract with the Dragons for next year.

im not privvy to players contracts and the ins and outs but i know that wests tigers did file a complaint with the nrl about moltzens contract that the right process wasnt followed. both parties (wests and st george) agreed to sort it at seasons end is all i know.

 

[Yossarian]

if wests tigers never sent his management and doust or whoever at the dragons release forms signed by tim and humphreys he was never released, as far as im aware this did not take place

That's fine but it looks a bit strange waiting until now to pipe up about it. All this was known some time ago and yet until yesterday we were led to believe Moltzen had a legitimate contract with the Dragons for next year.

im not privvy to players contracts and the ins and outs but i know that wests tigers did file a complaint with the nrl about moltzens contract that the right process wasnt followed. both parties (wests and st george) agreed to sort it at seasons end is all i know.

That's interesting. Was there a statement issued by either club or the NRL that this was the case?

 

[happy_tiger]

Only what I read in a foxsports article, and we all know what theyre worth, but it is a direct quote:

"…........St George Illawarra CEO Peter Doust issued a further statement on Friday evening, following the Tigers' response.
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"The announcement today by the Dragons of the signing of Tim Moltzen was based on information relayed to us about Tim's status with Wests Tigers in 2012 and after discussion with Tim and his management," Doust said.
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**"Our intention to make this announcement was communicated to Wests Tigers in advance of the announcement** even though it has always been our understanding and the standard practice within the game that the club signing a player makes any such announcement.
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"We do not understand the statement that our announcement is arrogant or disrespectful to the Wests Tigers club.
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"Our objective was to release key information that was already being widely discussed..............."

Humphreys also says in the article
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However Wests Tigers CEO Stephen Humphreys said in a statement that the signing was news to the club, also berating the Dragons for their timing and handling of the media release.
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**"The fact that the Dragons made the announcement this afternoon has come as a complete surprise to us,"** Humphreys said on Friday.
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"We are extremely disappointed that they chose this course of action without any co-ordination or agreement with us.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/league/nrl-premiership/st-george-illawarra-sign-wests-tigers-youngster-tim-moltzen-to-three-year-nrl-contract/story-fn2mcuj6-1226090815972

This was all on the Friday of the Parra game
Doust says they told us
Humpty says its a surprise.
Someones lying

So Ink why believe Doust over Humpreys
Remember seeing Humphrey on the game plan and he said Moltzen is staying (obviously before the Saints alledged signing)
There could be so many people behind this Ink Whether it be Moltzen himself ,Sheens ,Tauber or Humphreys
But it still comes back to the same point If the Saints had done the right thing by signing the contract as soon as it was decided by them to sign Moltzen they would not be in this boat
Forgets ethics ,morales my word is my bond etc This is big business and if you fail to conduct it properly you will get burnt The Saints will more than likely get burnt at least 2012 anyway

 

[tigercannon]

Putting my bush lawyer hat on, in the industry I work in you legally cannot approach a customer which you are aware is contracted to another supplier, unless you have the permission from the current supplier to approach for renegotiations. Therefore, unless Humphrey's has given permission for Saints to approach Moltzen, Saints have broken the law by contracting someone who is already contracted.

Again using the business analogy which sports is these days; if a customer wants to break the contract we would not hold them to it but may seek some compensation. I can’t see Saints enforcing the contract even if it is valid however, they may ask for some compensation

I am no lawyer however have some understanding of contracts , this is my interpretations for what it is worth.

 

[innsaneink]

So Ink why believe Doust over Humpreys
Remember seeing Humphrey on the game plan and he said Moltzen is staying (obviously before the Saints alledged signing)
There could be so many people behind this Ink Whether it be Moltzen himself ,Sheens ,Tauber or Humphreys
But it still comes back to the same point If the Saints had done the right thing by signing the contract as soon as it was decided by them to sign Moltzen they would not be in this boat
Forgets ethics ,morales my word is my bond etc This is big business and if you fail to conduct it properly you will get burnt The Saints will more than likely get burnt at least 2012 anyway

I dunno who to believe in that exchange on the day of the parra game, but its clear the landscape has changed for us, thus our stance on Moltzen has changed.
Telling him to look around while hanging onto release papers…I dunno what to make of that.
I do know if another club dicked us around and screwed up our recruitment for season 2012, i'd be unhappy at that.

 

[jirskyr]

I don't get the fuss from some of our ppl on here. Tigers never said Moltzen was released, we always made very specific factual statements about the situation.

But we didn't say anything when Dragons announced the signing. If we wanted Moltzen to stay we should have put an end to it then and there. But its like we wanted a bet each way, so we never technically released him.

If Lui didn't screw up again and Moltzen was ready, we would have just let Moltzen go and never heard another word about it.

If Dragons did this to us, I would be throwing F-bombs like you wouldn't believe.

What's wrong with a bet each way? Apart from making Timmy feel good about himself, we weren't obliged to make statements about retaining him. It seems like sound business to me. We avoided a legal stoush with Dragons until the point where we decided it was worth our effort.

For all we know, Timmy could have been begging Tigers management to help him renege for the last few weeks, something we may have now investigated since knocked out of the comp.

If Dragons did this to us we would certainly be throwing F-bombs for sure, but would you really want a player who decided he wanted to stay at his old club? I expect most people here would have said "good riddance, stay at the Dragons".

When have businesses ever succeeded by caring about the feelings of their rivals?

 

[king_sirro]

Its all every messy, much like a divorce, and i usually have one answer when asked which parent should the child live with? The answer most of the time comes from the child. So if i look at Wests Tigers being Tims Mum, and Saints being his Dad…then id say Tim wants to stay with his mum, and probably should be allowed too. Weird analogy????

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

So Ink why believe Doust over Humpreys
Remember seeing Humphrey on the game plan and he said Moltzen is staying (obviously before the Saints alledged signing)
There could be so many people behind this Ink Whether it be Moltzen himself ,Sheens ,Tauber or Humphreys
But it still comes back to the same point If the Saints had done the right thing by signing the contract as soon as it was decided by them to sign Moltzen they would not be in this boat
Forgets ethics ,morales my word is my bond etc This is big business and if you fail to conduct it properly you will get burnt The Saints will more than likely get burnt at least 2012 anyway

I dunno who to believe in that exchange on the day of the parra game, but its clear the landscape has changed for us, thus our stance on Moltzen has changed.
Telling him to look around while hanging onto release papers…I dunno what to make of that.
I do know if another club dicked us around and screwed up our recruitment for season 2012, i'd be unhappy at that.

True that, Ink. I'd be ropeable if Blair back-flipped.

At the end of the day, the front office would have been well aware Tim had been made an offer and signed, especially since it's very likely the approach came from WT to grant Tim permission to negotiate elsewhere. It's not right they plead a technicality at the eleventh hour to hold onto him just because something else has gone pear shaped, especially after an announcement was made by the Dragons of which they could have resolved the whole issue right there.

 

[tiger91]

Weird analogy King Sirro, but I get your point. I wouldn't want any player who wasn't prepared to bleed black, white and orange.

If I were a Dragon, I would be hoping Moltz stays at the Tigers as he's head and heart won't be 100% committed to their premiership campaign. Not only that but I couldn't imagine the Dragons players would be willing to line up in defense with Moltzen knowing he never wanted to be there.
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[smoking_gun]

dont know if any press releases were made yos…. not everything that happens makes the papers though. if it did go as far as the courts id assume the tigers would be in the right if he wasnt granted a release officially which is what appears to have happened. and by officially that is a signed agreement by tim and humphreys or who ever is in charge of wests tigers contracts. if tim didnt sign it then it isnt official even if humphreys or whoever did sign release papers as it has to be agreed by both to by both parties (moltzen and wests) as he was contracted for 2012\. verbal agreements hold zero weight in these argumens

 

[king_sirro]

Weird analogy King Sirro, but I get your point. I wouldn't want any player who wasn't prepared to bleed black, white and orange.

If I were a Dragon, I would be hoping Moltz stays at the Tigers as he's head and heart won't be 100% committed to their premiership campaign. Not only that but I couldn't imagine the Dragons players would be willing to line up in defense with Moltzen knowing he never wanted to be there.
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Yeh thats my point really, it would be in Saints bests interest to let Moltz go. From my understanding he isnt the best when dealing with things that dont go his way, so if i were Saints id run a mile

 

[KingOvKingz09]

Why would we bring it up during the season and risk derailing our title hopes ???? Better to just leave it for the off season IMO
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[LaT]

I don't get the fuss from some of our ppl on here. Tigers never said Moltzen was released, we always made very specific factual statements about the situation.

But we didn't say anything when Dragons announced the signing. If we wanted Moltzen to stay we should have put an end to it then and there. But its like we wanted a bet each way, so we never technically released him.

If Lui didn't screw up again and Moltzen was ready, we would have just let Moltzen go and never heard another word about it.

If Dragons did this to us, I would be throwing F-bombs like you wouldn't believe.

What's wrong with a bet each way? Apart from making Timmy feel good about himself, we weren't obliged to make statements about retaining him. It seems like sound business to me. We avoided a legal stoush with Dragons until the point where we decided it was worth our effort.

For all we know, Timmy could have been begging Tigers management to help him renege for the last few weeks, something we may have now investigated since knocked out of the comp.

If Dragons did this to us we would certainly be throwing F-bombs for sure, but would you really want a player who decided he wanted to stay at his old club? I expect most people here would have said "good riddance, stay at the Dragons".

When have businesses ever succeeded by caring about the feelings of their rivals?

I just feel that in a small market like Australia, the time will come where we need a favour or some goodwill from other clubs, or specifically Dragons, and if we pull stuff like this we may just burn up some bridges and goodwill.

Personally I don't feel its an honourable way of doing business. And to me, that matters.

 

[LaT]

Why would we bring it up during the season and risk derailing our title hopes ???? Better to just leave it for the off season IMO
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Club unrest was due to players like Tim leaving. IMO if the club could have come out and said "Tims not leaving yay!", they would have.

The only reason they wouldn't, would be that they honestly didn't think he was staying until very recently.

 

[happy_tiger]

So Ink why believe Doust over Humpreys
Remember seeing Humphrey on the game plan and he said Moltzen is staying (obviously before the Saints alledged signing)
There could be so many people behind this Ink Whether it be Moltzen himself ,Sheens ,Tauber or Humphreys
But it still comes back to the same point If the Saints had done the right thing by signing the contract as soon as it was decided by them to sign Moltzen they would not be in this boat
Forgets ethics ,morales my word is my bond etc This is big business and if you fail to conduct it properly you will get burnt The Saints will more than likely get burnt at least 2012 anyway

I dunno who to believe in that exchange on the day of the parra game, but its clear the landscape has changed for us, thus our stance on Moltzen has changed.
Telling him to look around while hanging onto release papers…I dunno what to make of that.
I do know if another club dicked us around and screwed up our recruitment for season 2012, i'd be unhappy at that.

True that, Ink. I'd be ropeable if Blair back-flipped.

At the end of the day, the front office would have been well aware Tim had been made an offer and signed, especially since it's very likely the approach came from WT to grant Tim permission to negotiate elsewhere. It's not right they plead a technicality at the eleventh hour to hold onto him just because something else has gone pear shaped, especially after an announcement was made by the Dragons of which they could have resolved the whole issue right there.

Blair is a completely different situation he is not a contracted player being alledgedly being released off the last year of his contract and I don't think the Tigers would be silly enough to leave him sit there on a verbal agreement he would of been signed as soon as it was all nutted out

 

[T-REXX]

Lat
From the facts you know what have the tigers done wrong??

Facts are no one knows the real facts so we can't comment on it..

Don't believe everything u read in the papers incl the mid year unrest
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[tiger91]

They may have been looking at the possibility of Moltzen staying for some time now and have only recently been confident of putting a case foward that will result in him staying.

Could you imagine if a week after the Dragons announced Moltzen's signing, we kicked up a stink without investigating and then the NRL stepped in a made Moltzen honor his contact with Saints? The West Tigers club, and even more so Humphries, would be the laughing stock of the NRL.

I just hope that we have invested time into this and investigated the issue and both contracts thoroughly so that we don't embarrass ourselves and can watch Moltzen in Tigers colours next year.
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[LaT]

Lat
From the facts you know what have the tigers done wrong??

Facts are no one knows the real facts so we can't comment on it..

Don't believe everything u read in the papers incl the mid year unrest
Posted using RoarFEED

If we can't comment on any situation until all facts are proven and known, this forum would be dead.

We get to have an opinion on it, all of us do.

 

[Fraze23]

Fact of the matter is that if Rob Lui doesnt land himself in strife none of this comes to surface.
Tim still may have wanted to stay but its a case of tough luck.
We told him to look elsewhere and he did. I really don't think we are handling this the right way.