Our Mary.....

S

stryker

New member
I'm not a religious man….
It's safe to say that I dont like or respect organised religion at all....
but I do have a question for those that are.

Why has Mary McKillop been made a saint 100 years after her death due to performing miracles that in no way shape or form can be proven?

After hearing her lifes story, there's no doubt, even to an outsider, that she lead a remarkable life and was one of the good guys.
Surely the way she lived her life was enough?

I mean I could come out tomorrow and say that Jimi Hendricks cured my gonorrhea with a little help from Ronnie James Dio....but I'm fairly sure that I wouldnt be taken seriously......or would I?

I dont understand the process....can someone in the know please explain?
 
You answered your own question in the 1st line….

It's about faith and belief.....

You either do or you don't pretty simple....Now I don't know about miracles and all but I believe that little Sophie is blessed to be alive ...I mean not once but twice run over by a car...the family says that their prayers to Mary McKillop saved their little girl...who am I to question that....

Besides I bet your kids will be lining up to rip open the presents on Jesus birthday...
 
What makes you so sure that Jesus' birthday was even on the 25th of December?
Infact what makes you so sure his real name was Jesus? lol
 
I know a little and it certainly works for Me…
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People cant decide to make people Saints giving them special powers all of a sudden... The Bible which is what Catholic church alleges it is based on says that "All believers are saints".

**Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,But by Me.**

No Saint this or Pope that.

All religion can be bundled into two categories

"Do or Done"

DO things on a list that have been thought of Man or Organised religion.(Catholic, Muslim, Hindu etc).. And Hope it works out..

DONE - Accept that there is nothing you can do and that it has been done for you and its a free Gift... This is True Christianity... Independent of a brand of Church.

Eph 2:8 For by **grace** are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: **it is the gift of God:**
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Like Politics not sure it belongs here on the forum.... Happy to talk more via PM if anyone is interested or has questions...
 
@Geo. said:
You answered your own question in the 1st line….

It's about faith and belief.....

You either do or you don't pretty simple....Now I don't know about miracles and all but I believe that little Sophie is blessed to be alive ...I mean not once but twice run over by a car...the family says that their prayers to Mary McKillop saved their little girl...who am I to question that....

Besides I bet your kids will be lining up to rip open the presents on Jesus birthday...
Click to expand...

I understand the concept of faith and belief…my mother is very catholic and extremely involved in the church.

What I dont understand though is that if a person leads a fantastic life of goodness ala Mary McKillop, Mother Theresa etc....why these deeds arent enough for cannonisation. My problem is with the belief structure of the pre-requisites.

Their deeds during their time on earth have been documented and witnessed. Yet to be sainted, they are required to perform miracles. If these were performed when they are alive I could accept it but for these miracles to ocurr decades and decades after death is very suspect to me. It almost cheapens the whole thing.

I do have a problem with the Delizio family claiming that it was the spirit of Mary that saved their daughter. What about praising the efforts of the surgeons, doctors, nurses and rehab professionals who have worked tirelessly for years to achieve the result?

I have no doubt that out of the billions who inhabit this earth, there are some who are so selfless and giving that its easy to believe that they have been put here to counteract the evil that exists in the world. To me these actions alone make them "saintly". I dont understand why the church deems it necessary for them to perform parlour tricks to achieve this, obviously justified, status.

BTW Geo no kids for me....but I do enjoy christmass because it brings my family together. My wife and I travel a lot so its at this time of year that we see everyone. Definetly dont treat it as a birthday party though.....
 
Stryker… The Catholic church isn't the only Christian church or necessarily a true Biblical representation of such.

I'm not a Catholic Basher, I have a good friend that it is a Cath priest.

The Saint part is more of what they deem to be "Sacred Tradition" handed down from the apostles and for me like Chinese whispers is where it has lost its way.

Don.t let it get you down...
 
@stryker said:
I understand the concept of faith and belief…my mother is very catholic and extremely involved in the church.

What I dont understand though is that if a person leads a fantastic life of goodness ala Mary McKillop, Mother Theresa etc....why these deeds arent enough for cannonisation. My problem is with the belief structure of the pre-requisites.

Their deeds during their time on earth have been documented and witnessed. Yet to be sainted, they are required to perform miracles. If these were performed when they are alive I could accept it but for these miracles to ocurr decades and decades after death is very suspect to me. It almost cheapens the whole thing.

I do have a problem with the Delizio family claiming that it was the spirit of Mary that saved their daughter. What about praising the efforts of the surgeons, doctors, nurses and rehab professionals who have worked tirelessly for years to achieve the result?

I have no doubt that out of the billions who inhabit this earth, there are some who are so selfless and giving that its easy to believe that they have been put here to counteract the evil that exists in the world. To me these actions alone make them "saintly". I dont understand why the church deems it necessary for them to perform parlour tricks to achieve this, obviously justified, status.

BTW Geo no kids for me....but I do enjoy christmass because it brings my family together. My wife and I travel a lot so its at this time of year that we see everyone. Definetly dont treat it as a birthday party though.....
Click to expand...

Yes ….I agree with you...the question you asked is to why do Catholics believe in the Saint proccess, Miracle's even Jesus himself?

It is because they need something concrete...A basis for the 'Faith' ..a reason... the answer to WHY....as Alien indirectly points out the burden of proof is impossible to achieve....

It could be argued that the prayers of the Delizio family provided those docters and nurses with the skill and gifts to save Sophie's life....It is what they believe....Do I ?... probably not but I don't know for sure...

Now I believe that there is a power greater than one's self...Call it Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Vishnew....makes no difference to me....I also believe for us to even exsist scientfically is a pretty big fluke if there wasn't some design...

Spartan ...no one is bashing Catholics...it is an interesting subject to discuss but you are right the 'Church' and faith and belief are often lightyeaars apart....some of the greatest atrocities on Earth have been done in the name of Religion...Lucky man built in the redemtion clause...
 
Stryker, I would echo Spartan's comments. From reading the Bible I do not see why Catholics feel the need to pray to someone else to take there prayer to God. God himself has given us the right to pray directly to him through Jesus, the book of Hebrews in the New Testament of the Bible makes this point. As for Mary performing miracles - I just can't go with that. It is God who performs miracles, not dead people, this is not to say that we should not thank hardworking doctors and nurses for their efforts. It just depends on who you perceive to be in primary control… I guess you can see from this post who I believe is in control :wink:

Anyway... Go Tigers.
 
@Geo. said:
some of the greatest atrocities on Earth have been done in the name of Religion…Lucky man built in the redemtion clause...
Click to expand...

Part A is spot on.

Even today Organised religion is a tool of the corrupt to control others for self gain whether its the Taliban, J-I or Benny Hinn (USA Send me money Guy).

As for redemption clause I'm not sold… I'm sort of old school and in all things theirs a cost. An for me this is a price I cant pay.

Enjoying the free exchange of whats usually considered a Gun powderesk topic
 
I was raised through as a Catholic and no longer attend church and these days I would consider myself to be an athiest. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, but my way of thinking was if there was a God as such to communicate with I would speak directly to Him myself. I honestly think you don't need a "middle man" between yourself and your deity and books to tell you how to be a good person, but some people crave the structure (particularly morally,) that religion offers them. For mine, organised religion is somewhat dated and possibly even redundant in this day and age and the thing that frightens me is how easily one can be corrupted under the guise of religion (e.g suicide bombings and other terrorism related activities, Jewish persecution, Scientology,) as easily as anyone could be with money or influence.

That said, if the canonisation of Saint Mary inspires people to do more good with their lives and show a bit more compassion, respect and tolerance for each other, then I can't really fault it.
 
What would Jesus do for a Scorched Peanut Bar?

This is the only question which matters
 
I believe that Mary was a wholey good person who achieved great things in her life for the good of humanity and for no other selfish reasons.
I believe that she is more than entitled to be called a saint.
I believe that in bestowing her with this honor can only be a good thing for the greater population.
I have no problems with any of this.

I also believe however that the church needed a good news story. It has been drowning in its own bad press for a long time now with the allergations it is currently dealing with. In fact Mary fought against this back in her day as well.

A sceptical type could easily assume that as canonisation is such a hard thing to achieve it could almost be considered impossible. Yet the church also has the power to decide what is impossible in this instance and what is not.

We should be judged on our deeds while we live.
 
@smeghead said:
What would Jesus do for a Scorched Peanut Bar?

This is the only question which matters
Click to expand...

Probably go down to Jeruselum 7/11 like the rest of us….
 
From what Pope Jonny Paulz 2 said, saints don't preform miracles. He said they don't have magical powers to do anything.
Instead, praying to them and THEN having a miracle occur is what gets attributed to the saint.
As opposed to praying to them and the saint preforming the miracle.

both are quite different to each other as one implies that saints have special powers (which is what JP2 said wasn't true) and the other is implies that miracles occur for miraculous reasons.

…well at least that's my understanding of what some geizer wrote in the paper the other day.
 
@alien said:
what are the miracles that they are saying she did?
Click to expand...

One miracle involved a young Australian mother who was diagnosed with cancer and given a short amount of time to live, the nuns told her to pray to Mary (as did they) and she is still alive today about 40 years later. Can't recall the second miracle but I think it would have been a similar scenario.
 
@cunno said:
@alien said:
what are the miracles that they are saying she did?

One miracle involved a young Australian mother who was diagnosed with cancer and given a short amount of time to live, the nuns told her to pray to Mary (as did they) and she is still alive today about 40 years later. Can't recall the second miracle but I think it would have been a similar scenario.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So why did the nuns tell her to pray to Mary? Why don't they tell them to pray to God instead of praying to a soul of a human that has passed on?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Staff online

Members online

... and 18 more.
Total: 515 (members: 68, guests: 447)
Back
Top