Phil gould on the sunday roast

[dimitri]

There is no true halfback role anymore in the game.

You either play first receiver on the left or the right side of the ruck.

Marshall always sat on the left side of the ruck but didnt have a decent reciver on the right (Morris), hence the pressure on Marshall to perform. He was also supersticious with the number 7 on his back. Ask him.

I wish the Sheens bashers would get off his case because the limited amount of technical understanding of the game from some "supporters" borders on disgraceful.

Oh, by the way, following is a small list of "halves" that have been created successfully, Sheens had a hand in some of these names by the way, over the years after being moved around the backline:

Daley, Lockyer, Fitler, Jackson, Hornby, Rogers, Sutton, Anasta, Barrett, Hill, Lewis, Kenny…....etc etc

The relentless criticism of the coach is disgraceful.

 

[Sabre]

You must remember that Phil Gould had Brad Fittler at 5/8 in all of his teams at the Roosters, so he could have put the Harold Matthews halfback in the side and he still would have gone alright.

Benji's no dud at 5/8 either. Not as good as Fittler obviously but still very good.

 

[stryker]

There is no true halfback role anymore in the game.

You either play first receiver on the left or the right side of the ruck.

Marshall always sat on the left side of the ruck but didnt have a decent reciver on the right (Morris), hence the pressure on Marshall to perform. He was also supersticious with the number 7 on his back. Ask him.

I wish the Sheens bashers would get off his case because the limited amount of technical understanding of the game from some "supporters" borders on disgraceful.

Oh, by the way, following is a small list of "halves" that have been created successfully, Sheens had a hand in some of these names by the way, over the years after being moved around the backline:

Daley, Lockyer, Fitler, Jackson, Hornby, Rogers, Sutton, Anasta, Barrett, Hill, Lewis, Kenny…....etc etc

The relentless criticism of the coach is disgraceful.

Thats a load of garbage Dimitri….True halfbacks in the game are Thurston, Prince, Kimmorley, Orford....do you think that these guys only get the ball when its their turn do you? They touch it a minimum of twice a set every set. They lead their teams around the park with their running passing and kicking games.

I also dont get why you've named all those players above....With the exception of Hornby they are all 5/8ths.

 

[Tigerdave]

The relentless criticism of the coach is disgraceful.

you don't feel that he should be criticized after trying for over 2 years to manufacture a half back out of Morris? 2 years???

 

[dimitri]

The reason why those names were listed in the previous comment is to point out that not everyone starts out as a half but sometimes are manafactured into a half, some successfully, some not.

Morris was an experiment that undoubtedly failed due to the lack of support from other key players on the field. Marshall is a half that is still learning the trade and has a history of being erratic and injured. Blind Freddy can see his improvement in the back half of the 2009.

Morris was a great contributor to the Tigers with his experience and work ethic, but lacked support due to injuries to key players as well as their immaturity in handling the playmaking role.

The Tigers will be better in 2010 as key players have matured into their positions.

When the Tigers were looking for a new half after Prince left, there was no one available to fill his boots having regard to experience or the financial constraints of the club. Hodgson and Marshall were to fill-in around the ruck but injuries to both players limited any opportunity for the team to be cohesive.

Sheens is a great coach and is rebuilding a quality team that will be competitive in the next few years.

Ask the Sharks, Dragons, Sea Eagles, Panthers fans if they are not dissappointed. We all are, but not everyone can win the comp year in year out unless the stars allign and your team can rort the salary cap like Melbourne can, but that's another story.

 

[southerntiger]

There is no true halfback role anymore in the game.

You either play first receiver on the left or the right side of the ruck.

Marshall always sat on the left side of the ruck but didnt have a decent reciver on the right (Morris), hence the pressure on Marshall to perform. He was also supersticious with the number 7 on his back. Ask him.

I wish the Sheens bashers would get off his case because the limited amount of technical understanding of the game from some "supporters" borders on disgraceful.

Oh, by the way, following is a small list of "halves" that have been created successfully, Sheens had a hand in some of these names by the way, over the years after being moved around the backline:

Daley, Lockyer, Fitler, Jackson, Hornby, Rogers, Sutton, Anasta, Barrett, Hill, Lewis, Kenny…....etc etc

The relentless criticism of the coach is disgraceful.

Thats a load of garbage Dimitri….True halfbacks in the game are Thurston, Prince, Kimmorley, Orford....do you think that these guys only get the ball when its their turn do you? They touch it a minimum of twice a set every set. They lead their teams around the park with their running passing and kicking games.

I also dont get why you've named all those players above....With the exception of Hornby they are all 5/8ths.

Given that both Prince and Thurston started their careers as five-eighths seems to make your point pretty stupid. Further, if the Gould rule applies than Moltzen shouldnt be playing half-back as he was a junior 6 not a 7.

 

[Aladinsane]

Sheens has made the mistake more than once too.
He doesnt seem to learn from them.

What makes you think he hasn't learned?

What makes you think he has?

Who knows whether Sheens has finally learnt or hasn't learnt…..all I know is that I saw him watching passionately over both State Cup games last Sunday, standing in the entrance of the tunnel, talking to all Wests and Tigers staff, and watching the Willie & Al Show and making notes.
No one here can EVER knock the bloke for not doing the hours, research and giving his time to all his playing rooster.

When 2010 is another Vintage champagne year, like 2005......and wonder how all these Sack Sheens threads will read like then.
And yes , if we don't make the 8, and his Contract is up....then and only then you can have your Terry Lamb.

Even this year , I have enjoyed watching how the Tigers play their footy, then any other team, yes we missed the 8, but it was a fun ride doing it

 

[Tigerdave]

Morris was a great contributor yes, but to say that other players failed around him? He stunted our attack on more than just a few occasions and this was persisted for 2 years, it wasn't Morris' fault he was placed in the position he was, but he really shouldn't have been there for the length of time he was.

I believe the side will be better next year, however, there is a very real fear that more experimentation will go on in the halves. For 6 weeks this year, we had a halves combo that appeared to be going very well, then Gallant got injured… instead of bringing up a fullback from the lower grades, we weaken one position to try and strengthen another.

It shouldn't take 2 years to realise that something isn't working..... and that's the issue.

Hope that we don't see something similar in the next couple of years.

 

[Colonel]

Who knows whether Sheens has finally learnt or hasn't learnt…..all I know is that I saw him watching passionately over both State Cup games last Sunday, standing in the entrance of the tunnel, talking to all Wests and Tigers staff, and watching the Willie & Al Show and making notes.
No one here can EVER knock the bloke for not doing the hours, research and giving his time to all his playing rooster.

When 2010 is another Vintage champagne year, like 2005......and wonder how all these Sack Sheens threads will read like then.
**And yes , if we don't make the 8, and his Contract is up....then and only then you can have your Terry Lamb.**

Even this year , I have enjoyed watching how the Tigers play their footy, then any other team, yes we missed the 8, but it was a fun ride doing it

Not commenting on the rest of your post, but I'm so sick of this false dichotomy being constantly thrown up on this forum; as if the end of Sheens (a coach who has got us to the finals only once the entire time he's been here) will obviously mean a return to the days of Terry Lamb.

Clubs change coaches all the time. Just because we've got a coach who's not as bad as one of the worst first grade coaches in history doesn't mean we can't still hope for something better!

 

[Glennb]

There is no true halfback role anymore in the game.

You either play first receiver on the left or the right side of the ruck.

Marshall always sat on the left side of the ruck but didnt have a decent reciver on the right (Morris), hence the pressure on Marshall to perform. He was also supersticious with the number 7 on his back. Ask him.

I wish the Sheens bashers would get off his case because the limited amount of technical understanding of the game from some "supporters" borders on disgraceful.

Oh, by the way, following is a small list of "halves" that have been created successfully, Sheens had a hand in some of these names by the way, over the years after being moved around the backline:

Daley, Lockyer, Fitler, Jackson, Hornby, Rogers, Sutton, Anasta, Barrett, Hill, Lewis, Kenny…....etc etc

The relentless criticism of the coach is disgraceful.

Thats a load of garbage Dimitri….True halfbacks in the game are Thurston, Prince, Kimmorley, Orford....do you think that these guys only get the ball when its their turn do you? They touch it a minimum of twice a set every set. They lead their teams around the park with their running passing and kicking games.

I also dont get why you've named all those players above....With the exception of Hornby they are all 5/8ths.

Its ironic that you have said that they "**_are all 5/8ths_**, in doing so you have completely proven Dimitri's point, and shown that your post is the one thats "**_a load of garbage_**.

All of those players **_were not_** 5/8's or halves and were manufactured by their coach…..Daley (centre to 5/8 **_by Sheens_**), Lockyer (FB to 5/8), Fitler (Centre to 5/8 with some lock thrown in), etc etc etc.

On a side issue, I have noticed a fair few of your posts always begin with "Thats Garbage", "Thats bull...", "Thats pathetic" ettc etc. If you would like your opinion to be respected (no matter how unfounded it is, I'd recommend taht you respect others opinions.
FWIW I thought that Dimitri's original post was well presented and concise.

Glenn

 

[stryker]

Hey Glenn,
I also thought that what Dimitri wrote was correct - that all these great 5/8ths were manufactured

**HOWEVER**

The point of this thread was that Gould claimed that you cant sucessfully manufacture a **halfback**. A halfback isn't just a first reciever. He plays a far more important role in the running of the team on the field than that.
No one is talking about 5/8ths as there are dozens of success stories in this position. I mean NSW have manufactured 5/8ths in their side most years.

On a side note I've noticed that you have been running around this forum getting into anyone who has the audacity to suggest that Sheens has had his time. I'll admit that there are a few of us that have had it with him and are pushing an adgenda to have him replaced. I think it's time you admitted you also have one - then we can all take you more seriously….

 

[Glennb]

Hey Glenn,
I also thought that what Dimitri wrote was correct - that all these great 5/8ths were manufactured

**HOWEVER**

The point of this thread was that Gould claimed that you cant sucessfully manufacture a **halfback**. A halfback isn't just a first reciever. He plays a far more important role in the running of the team on the field than that.
No one is talking about 5/8ths as there are dozens of success stories in this position. I mean NSW have manufactured 5/8ths in their side most years…..

Ahhh…now I'm with you.

On a side note I've noticed that you have been running around this forum getting into anyone who has the audacity to suggest that Sheens has had his time. I'll admit that there are a few of us that have had it with him and are _**pushing an adgenda**_ to have him replaced. I think it's time you admitted you also have one - then we can all take you more seriously….

The agenda thing that you raise is the crux of it. For some here (I actually don't include you in that group) it is **_SIMPLY_** that, an agenda to get rid of him, no matter what and THE SAME THING is repeated ad nauseum in order to justify this agenda.

On a SIMPLISTIC view, I can understand and to a point agree with this point of view. If you simply look at the fact we have only made the semi's once in last 5 years. However I personally don't think that a football club is that simple and for me the development in the team at the back end of the season as well as the improvement in depth and good juniors coming through is possibly the healthiest that we have looked since 05\. My agenda is to try and think rationally about the club and Sheens and not blindly repeat the mantra about 1 in 5, or the Morris experiment ad infinitum.

To date my life hasn't become so shallow that I'd give a flying fire truck whether I was taken seriously on an internet forum but I'll keep you posted. :wink:

Glenn
(Who DOES get the irony of my last sentence so dont bite at the bait, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate)

 

[Colonel]

There is no true halfback role anymore in the game.

You either play first receiver on the left or the right side of the ruck.

Marshall always sat on the left side of the ruck but didnt have a decent reciver on the right (Morris), hence the pressure on Marshall to perform. He was also supersticious with the number 7 on his back. Ask him.

I wish the Sheens bashers would get off his case because the limited amount of technical understanding of the game from some "supporters" borders on disgraceful.

I honestly don't think the Marshall situation is as cut and dry as you make it sound hear and I know others on this forum have made similar points.

When Marshall was playing at half-back, with Morris at 5/8 he seemed to play a lot more first receiver, on both sides of the ruck. When Moltzen was at half-back they tended to play first receiver on different sides of the ruck (Marshall on the left, Moltzen on the right).

I can't find the quote (it would have been posted on the old forum which has now been shut down), that Marshall made immediately after the match against Souths in round 17, (which was when Moltzen made the switch to half-back) that referred to this exact point.

So, while it's fair to say that even with the 6 on his back Marshall still played in the half-back role at times, I'd say that there was a shift in round 17 where he went from trying to play the traditional half-back role of a Kimmorley or Thurston, to playing his more traditional roving role, at second receiver and occasionally chiming in at first receiver.

I also do not believe it is correct to say that Marshall played exactly the same role in round 16, when he had the 7 on his back and Morris the 6, as he did in round 17 when he had the 6 on his back and Moltzen the 7.

 

[hybrid_tiger]

Who knows whether Sheens has finally learnt or hasn't learnt…..all I know is that I saw him watching passionately over both State Cup games last Sunday, standing in the entrance of the tunnel, talking to all Wests and Tigers staff, and watching the Willie & Al Show and making notes.
No one here can EVER knock the bloke for not doing the hours, research and giving his time to all his playing rooster.

When 2010 is another Vintage champagne year, like 2005......and wonder how all these Sack Sheens threads will read like then.
**And yes , if we don't make the 8, and his Contract is up....then and only then you can have your Terry Lamb.**

Even this year , I have enjoyed watching how the Tigers play their footy, then any other team, yes we missed the 8, but it was a fun ride doing it

Not commenting on the rest of your post, but I'm so sick of this false dichotomy being constantly thrown up on this forum; as if the end of Sheens (a coach who has got us to the finals only once the entire time he's been here) will obviously mean a return to the days of Terry Lamb.

Clubs change coaches all the time. Just because we've got a coach who's not as bad as one of the worst first grade coaches in history doesn't mean we can't still hope for something better!

THANKYOU.

The Lamb references are pathetic, really.

 

[Geo]

To date my life hasn't become so shallow that I'd give a flying fire truck whether I was taken seriously on an internet forum but I'll keep you posted. :wink:

Glenn
(Who DOES get the irony of my last sentence so dont bite at the bait, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate)

Duhh…...yet here you are argueing you point most eloquently....... 😕

 

[Glennb]

To date my life hasn't become so shallow that I'd give a flying fire truck whether I was taken seriously on an internet forum but I'll keep you posted. :wink:

Glenn
(Who DOES get the irony of my last sentence so dont bite at the bait, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate)

Duhh…...yet here you are argueing you point most eloquently....... 😕

Geo, I think you may have missed the last line of Strykers post, and not read the line under my sig mate :wink:

 

[dimitri]

Fair comment Colonel,

But stats show that Marshall at "6" recieved the ball as first receiver almost the same amount as when he had "7" on his back.

Superstition is a funny thing.

Marshall was too inconsistent in his early days at 7, but he had that odd game where he was brilliant like the last game against the Titans in 2008.

The important thing with Marshall is confidence and when he is on fire, give him the ball whether he has 6, 7 or 9596 on his back.

 

[Geo]

To date my life hasn't become so shallow that I'd give a flying fire truck whether I was taken seriously on an internet forum but I'll keep you posted. :wink:

Glenn
(Who DOES get the irony of my last sentence so dont bite at the bait, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate)

Duhh…...yet here you are argueing you point most eloquently....... 😕

Geo, I think you may have missed the last line of Strykers post, and not read the line under my sig mate :wink:

Ohhh…...my feeble attempt at irony failed dismally....

BTW.....your not the only one sick of the sack Sheens agenda.......I'll join your crusade.........he provides the opposition with plenty of ammunition...but coming into 2010....... I wouldn't swap him for anyone ATM .....I love mediocrity.......

We are in a position to take advantage of '09......Sheens understands this.....replacing him now would be just plain dumb....but I'm sure with the inevitable loss there will be those calling for his head....pushing the same old agendas.....

 

[Torbizlo]

we had a genuine half back in matt head and we let him go.

 

[cqtiger]

we had a genuine half back in matt head and we let him go.

Yeah to St George where he hardly got a run. Even Bennett knew that he wasn't the player he wanted. Unfortunately Head was never the same after his horror knee injuries. I think that we can put this one to bed.