Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Tiger5150]

It's silly to blame this invasion on the west.

Earl you cant be reading Tills posts properly. He said he blames Putin.

Two things can be true at once. Putin IS to blame, but this wouldnt be happening if the west was stong, and its not at the moment.

 

[Tiger5150]

Maybe you misinterpreted my statement that said "of course it is Putin's fault"?
But of course also there are other factors that enabled it, most notably Biden's public promise to not offer any military support in the event of invasion. Such a limp stance makes war far more likely. It is foreign policy 101.

Xi Jinping now knows full well the only response to invading Taiwan will be 'strong condemnation' and a few meaningless sanctions. So we can expect more war in 2022.

Three weeks ago Biden actually said...."Maybe it will just be a minor incursion in a few small areas and not be too bad...."...Genuinely amazingly weak leadership.

 

[Pascoes_barber]

'Kazarian mafia' is code for 'the Jews'. One minute the invasion is justified because of 'Nazis', the next minute it's justified because of evil Jews lol, Putin must be quite the bipolar.

Yep.

I would wager that @Kul didn't start this thread as a safe-space for @TrueTiger and fellow 'researchers' to share anti-semitism and other hate speech.

Gross.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Here's a question for you TT. How would you know you're wrong?

For me, I disagree with you, but if I saw a mass of Ukrainians take up arms against their army, government and neighbours I would support their will and change my view. And I don't need the abc or other media, lots of social media coverage of the war by ppl on the ground showing clearly that the vast majority are suffering through a foreign invasion. Not to mention the dead Russian soldiers too.

What metric or evidence would change your mind? Are you even open to the possibility you are wrong?

Just a tourism explosion of old men, along with women and their children flooding westwards to enjoy the end of a cold winter in tents with a soup kitchen.

 

[Tiger5150]

You seem to be oversimplifying the issue, as though having some blowhard in power in the US making idle threats would have averted everything. It wouldn't. What Putin is seeking to capitalise on is the increasing diffusion of power in Western democracies. The people have much more influence over the decisions made by their leaders and the people (as a voting majority) have very little appetite for war. I imagine the voting majority in Russia have very little appetite for war either, but they are disempowered.
The US does not want to involve itself in another war: it can't afford to (which is why any threats would have been idle). The EU has no appetite for war. The majority want to move towards a post-war world. Continuing to respond to aggression with retaliatory or retributive aggression will never achieve that, it will just continue the same old cycle. Putin has no interest in playing by the rules, he is enjoying the fact that others have constrained themselves by rules which he feels free to disregard and capitalise on. He does not have the same accountability or scrutiny as leaders in Western democracies.
So a new way needs to be formulated to reign in someone like Putin, a way that does not involve bombing the crap out of a civilian population that would probably rather not have their leader stomping around trying to expand his legacy with no regard for the lives lost along the way. If you've got some great solution then fire away.

In the absence of that "new way", what words of hope, love, peace and brown rice would you have for the civilians in Ukraine? Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Kazhakstan?

You have (I think inadvertantly) pointed out the issue. "The West" make the mistake that the rest of the world want the same things that we do and have the same priorities as us, care about the same things. They dont. Whilst the West has distracted itself with meaningless things that we are only priviledged to waste our time about because of the hard work and blood spilled before us, the rest of the world....Russia, China, India, the Middle East dont give a rats and will push for their priorities.

In the West there is a strong "post imperialist" sentiment at the moment, with many cheering the end of US hegemony, but we want to be very careful about what we wish for. The World will not live in a vacuum and the loss of US hegemony will be replaced by something else. The US has done many disgraceful things but at the end of the day we all need to decide what global influence we want to live under and Im sure of what I'd choose.

 

[leichhardtjunior]

Whether or not he's a moderator is irrelevant to pointing out that @TrueTiger and yourself are the two worst 'contributors' to this site.

Leasing your minds/eyeballs to the troll farms and other purveyors of misinformation.

Ahh there it is, buzzword of the moment, ‘MISINFORMATION’ 👏👏👏
Isn’t it funny how when a government or media narrative coins a term, all the (accepted) academic's and conformist majority pile onboard.
And even as everything they promise along the way is eventually exposed as incorrect, the irony of their own term goes unrealised.
YOUR GOVERNMENT AND THEIR MEDICAL AND MEDIA ARMS LIED TO YOU THROUGH THE WHOLE PANDEMIC… STATISTICAL FACT

THAT’S SYSTEMATIC MISINFORMATION YOU FOOL

 

[Tiger5150]

That would not have changed anything. Decisions are not made on the basis of stated public positions, they are made based on what they think will actually be done. So fine, bag him. Maybe it would have been better had he said something else. But it didn't change the course of events. Putin would not have had all of his troop movements in place only to turn around and skulk back at the slightest public comment of threat from the US and you've misread the man and his motives if you think otherwise.

You dont think that the disgraceful and cowardly way the Biden administration handled the withdrawal from Afghanistan had ANY impact on Putins decision to act in Ukraine?

 

[earl]

most notably Biden's public promise to not offer any military support in the event of invasion. Such a limp stance makes war far more likely. It is foreign policy 101.

I find this silly especially considering Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was tickling every dictator gonads when he was in power. It was pathetic.

I don't think strong leadership works here. I don't think anyone suggesting strong leadership has any idea what they are dealing with.

 

[earl]

There is zero justification for this invasion. Zero. And all the cooker, sovcit nutter talk in the world won’t change it.

Exactly.

 

[Nelson]

Good boy. Solid herd 101 deflection. Great use of buzzwords, although you missed a few.
You, Earl.gov and the conformist majority have found your safe little place where you can all encourage and reassure yourselves.
Probably go get a top up jab just to be extra protected against whatever the ‘bad guys’ come up with next though.
😂😂😂

What buzzwords? Come on, expose your ignorance.

 

[Tiger5150]

Good boy. Solid herd 101 deflection. Great use of buzzwords, although you missed a few.
You, Earl.gov and the conformist majority have found your safe little place where you can all encourage and reassure yourselves.
Probably go get a top up jab just to be extra protected against whatever the ‘bad guys’ come up with next though.
😂😂😂

The irony of posting about great use of "buzzwords" and still managing to slip "herd" & "jab" in.

 

[earl]

You seem to be oversimplifying the issue, as though having some blowhard in power in the US making idle threats would have averted everything. It wouldn't.

This is the issue. People trying to blame this on Biden are just trying to come up with pathetic political points.

It's also hypocritical because Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon wasn't just weak. He actually pandered to every dictator that I can think of including the Taliban.

We can't just nuke them.

 

[earl]

You dont think that the disgraceful and cowardly way the Biden administration handled the withdrawal from Afghanistan had ANY impact on Putins decision to act in Ukraine?

None at all. You've also fallen to the idea that Biden played such a huge role in the withdrawal, Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was going to withdraw them as well. The difference was Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was telling everyone how he was doing deals with them.

You make a good point that the days of the USA as a superpower are coming to an end and we now have countries like China taking over that mantle. It's not a good situation.

 

[Nelson]

You dont think that the disgraceful and cowardly way the Biden administration handled the withdrawal from Afghanistan had ANY impact on Putins decision to act in Ukraine?

I think the fact of the withdrawal and the circumstances that led to it had a much bigger impact than the manner of the withdrawal. There was bipartisan support for withdrawal. I doubt there was any "good" way to do it. There would certainly have been better ways than how it was carried out, but the fact is they were always going to get out and it was always going to leave an enormous mess behind them and expose the reality that, for all that was expended, little was achieved. It makes it very hard to sell the next war to the general public.

 

[PJ_]

Punt brooks

 

[earl]

"The West" make the mistake that the rest of the world want the same things that we do and have the same priorities as us, care about the same things. They dont.

It's much more nuanced than this.

The Ukraine appear to want to be westernized. Putin (not all Russians) wants to have the world revert to a situation much more like the USSR.

 

[earl]

Oh wow, here come the global conspiracy theories.

Put them on ignore. They should be locked up in insane asylums.

 

[PJ_]

I remind my kids all the time that they have it so lucky being born Australian.
My family grew up in war in the middle east. I was lucky enough to be born in Australia as well.
Prayers to all the disadvantaged, war is shit.
Best thing we can do is help any way we can.
Bisamallah hirramah nirraheem

 

[earl]

Under those circumstances, the only solution is diplomatic and power sharing and the US should have vetoed NATO membership for Ukraine on this basis

Member states of NATO - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NATO - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are a lot of countries within NATO including Albania and Belgium. Is NATO just a US based organization. If not your comments don't add up.

My take is that there is way too much focus on the US because some of you want simple easy answers.

 

[Tiger5150]

None at all. You've also fallen to the idea that Biden played such a huge role in the withdrawal, Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was going to withdraw them as well. The difference was Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon was telling everyone how he was doing deals with them.

You make a good point that the days of the USA as a superpower are coming to an end and we know have countries like China taking over that mantle. It's not a good situation.

Earl, what stops expansionist dictators like Putin or Xi from taking eastern Europe or Taiwan? If they had NO fear that greater powers than themselves will intervene, there is literally nothing standing in their way. There must at least be the thought or fear that the US, NATO or Europe will intervene and by Biden explicitly say he wont, or by the US tucking their tail between their legs and running from the Taliban, leaving more military hardware than the Australian Defence Forces have to the Taliban, that fear is 100% removed. Taiwan will follow soon.

Yes Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon signed up to withdrawal, but not like THAT (I am not a Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon fan).

It's not JUST Biden, the whole west has played its part. Europe has been in such fear of a 16yo School dropout that they have completely dismantled their energy systems and made the majority of Europe entirely dependent on Russia for their energy requirements. Russia can literally turn a tap and the whole of Germany will freeze to death.

The West has taken its eye of the ball and forgotten the game. On the other hand, Putin & Xi (with India & ME) have been intently playing the long game and we are watching the quickening of history.