Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[cochise]

I’ve said this before , but we are one of the only elite competitions in the world , without a draft to go with the salary cap . Either don’t have a salary cap , and have all salaries public knowledge , or have a draft to help with the cap .

The NSWRL introduced a draft in 1991. Some players and coaches challenged it in the courts and the High Court upheld the challenge and the draft was thrown out. It lasted a year.

Fast forward to today. Imagine, say, Easts and other glamour clubs being denied the opportunity to pick the eyes out of the best juniors. How long before Polites challenged it in the courts ?

The only reason a draft works in the AFL is because everybody is prepared to accept it. It wouldn't survive if it were challenged in the courts.

That is not necessarily true, restraints of trade can win court challenges if they can be proven to be fair and reasonable. Examples of arguments for fair and reasonable restraints of trade include that they are important for the viability of the organisation and thus actually protect wages. It is why the salary cap would likely survive a legal challenge. If a sporting organisation could argue that the competition is more viable because of a draft than it could possibly survive a legal challenge.

I guess it’s theoretically possible to design a draft that will survive a court challenge in Australia. Or perhaps it would be better to get everyone’s agreement beforehand not to challenge it in the courts (similar to the AFL).

From time to time the NRL has re-considered a draft, but has not pressed on. I suspect because it sees the challenges which would be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

As you say, the viability of the NRL is an important consideration, which the court is obliged to consider. This was raised in the original case. However, the appeal Court found that while the NSWRL was seeking to assist the evenness of the competition, the Court did not accept that the draft was necessary to ensure the financial stability of the clubs.

You also mention that a draft could be approved if demonstrated to be fair and reasonable. But this was the sticking point on appeal. Part of this was the way the draft had been designed, but the fundamental objection for the court was that the draft is contrary to the common law principle that parties should be free to trade as they wish.

Justice Wilcox held that if you are compelling a person to enter into the service of someone they have not chosen, then the justification must be extra-ordinarily compelling for it to be said to be reasonable.

Moreover, Wilcox regarded the proposed internal draft as both anticompetitive and an illegal collective boycott. He said that: “It is difficult to see what policy purpose is achieved by leaving inviolate arrangements under which potential employers agree not to compete amongst themselves ...It is certainly not in the interests of employees.”

I only raised the NSWRL’s attempt to introduce a draft because a number of people keep saying that the NRL should introduce a draft. It is clearly easier said than done.

Good debate and points raised. I think this year the huge gap between the top say 6 teams and the rest has been widely discussed in commentary teams. The fact that the Titans made the finals winning - was it 10 games out of 24, highlights the gulf. If this shows up again next year it is quite possible that a draft or 'other way' of making the game fairer may come into play. I remember another poster mentioning something like a 'points allocation' for each team with players being given ratings. Who knows, but at the moment the salary cap is a farce.


I have been saying this for ages

Sydney Rugby Union uses this approach and if it was adhered to it would work well. Currently the system is being rorted by the top teams

Players are allowed points for being a 1st grade player, a super rugby player, Australian player or Second tier nations player. But if you are junior or played more than 1 season at the club you can get discounts e.g.; for the Tigers
Chris Lawrence played for Australia allocated 10 points but discounts for being a junior and years of service he would cost the club 1 point. Now Cooper Cronk when he went to Easts, played for Australia 10 points, not a junior or never played for the club before he costs the club 10 points. Each club is allocated 100 points for first grade for that day. Simple solution and if managed effectively is a great way to spread talent

This idea comes up every so often and there's a reason why it's never been seriously explored in the NRL: because it would never get past the players union - and quite rightly so, because it's dreadful. Imagine if teams were forced to put a star player weighting on, say, Aaron Woods (multiple caps for Australia and NSW). He'd never get a contract at all, even at bargain basement level, his agent and the union would be livid and would probably sue for restraint of trade.

Oh yeah, and the system would also kill off international rugby league for good. Imagine if some young kid gets offered a place in the Samoa squad for a world cup and, say, Craig Bellamy doesn't want him to take the extra X points for being an international rep. He just says "up to you if you want to play international football, but we don't have cap room to re-sign another international for next year". All of a sudden players are dropping like flies with mystery injuries before international games.

Plus, you're now effectively placing cap management in the hands of rep selectors. Remember when Nathan Merritt got called up for the Blues and played the worst game in origin history? Well, under the rep points system he's now worth less to any club as well because he's officially a rep player and they can't have too many of them.

The problem with all these "how to fix the salary cap" ideas is that they sound great in the pub but when you actually consider the ramifications and how they would play out in roster management they tend to fall apart. Mind you, you could say the same about most of the recent rule changes and that hasn't stopped the halfwits running the show from pushing them through, so we'll probably get some nonsense like this if it appeals to V'Landys.


I understand, but I did only give a very simplistic view of how it works e.g.: A Soman player would be classed as a second tier RL nation would only be charged at half the rate of a NZ or Aust player. There is a lot of ways this can work but its not unworkable

So a player would be disadvantaged by being born in Australia? What if the best player in the game is playing for a 2nd tier nation?

 

[TheDaBoss]

I’ve said this before , but we are one of the only elite competitions in the world , without a draft to go with the salary cap . Either don’t have a salary cap , and have all salaries public knowledge , or have a draft to help with the cap .

The NSWRL introduced a draft in 1991. Some players and coaches challenged it in the courts and the High Court upheld the challenge and the draft was thrown out. It lasted a year.

Fast forward to today. Imagine, say, Easts and other glamour clubs being denied the opportunity to pick the eyes out of the best juniors. How long before Polites challenged it in the courts ?

The only reason a draft works in the AFL is because everybody is prepared to accept it. It wouldn't survive if it were challenged in the courts.

That is not necessarily true, restraints of trade can win court challenges if they can be proven to be fair and reasonable. Examples of arguments for fair and reasonable restraints of trade include that they are important for the viability of the organisation and thus actually protect wages. It is why the salary cap would likely survive a legal challenge. If a sporting organisation could argue that the competition is more viable because of a draft than it could possibly survive a legal challenge.

I guess it’s theoretically possible to design a draft that will survive a court challenge in Australia. Or perhaps it would be better to get everyone’s agreement beforehand not to challenge it in the courts (similar to the AFL).

From time to time the NRL has re-considered a draft, but has not pressed on. I suspect because it sees the challenges which would be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

As you say, the viability of the NRL is an important consideration, which the court is obliged to consider. This was raised in the original case. However, the appeal Court found that while the NSWRL was seeking to assist the evenness of the competition, the Court did not accept that the draft was necessary to ensure the financial stability of the clubs.

You also mention that a draft could be approved if demonstrated to be fair and reasonable. But this was the sticking point on appeal. Part of this was the way the draft had been designed, but the fundamental objection for the court was that the draft is contrary to the common law principle that parties should be free to trade as they wish.

Justice Wilcox held that if you are compelling a person to enter into the service of someone they have not chosen, then the justification must be extra-ordinarily compelling for it to be said to be reasonable.

Moreover, Wilcox regarded the proposed internal draft as both anticompetitive and an illegal collective boycott. He said that: “It is difficult to see what policy purpose is achieved by leaving inviolate arrangements under which potential employers agree not to compete amongst themselves ...It is certainly not in the interests of employees.”

I only raised the NSWRL’s attempt to introduce a draft because a number of people keep saying that the NRL should introduce a draft. It is clearly easier said than done.

Good debate and points raised. I think this year the huge gap between the top say 6 teams and the rest has been widely discussed in commentary teams. The fact that the Titans made the finals winning - was it 10 games out of 24, highlights the gulf. If this shows up again next year it is quite possible that a draft or 'other way' of making the game fairer may come into play. I remember another poster mentioning something like a 'points allocation' for each team with players being given ratings. Who knows, but at the moment the salary cap is a farce.


I have been saying this for ages

Sydney Rugby Union uses this approach and if it was adhered to it would work well. Currently the system is being rorted by the top teams

Players are allowed points for being a 1st grade player, a super rugby player, Australian player or Second tier nations player. But if you are junior or played more than 1 season at the club you can get discounts e.g.; for the Tigers
Chris Lawrence played for Australia allocated 10 points but discounts for being a junior and years of service he would cost the club 1 point. Now Cooper Cronk when he went to Easts, played for Australia 10 points, not a junior or never played for the club before he costs the club 10 points. Each club is allocated 100 points for first grade for that day. Simple solution and if managed effectively is a great way to spread talent

This idea comes up every so often and there's a reason why it's never been seriously explored in the NRL: because it would never get past the players union - and quite rightly so, because it's dreadful. Imagine if teams were forced to put a star player weighting on, say, Aaron Woods (multiple caps for Australia and NSW). He'd never get a contract at all, even at bargain basement level, his agent and the union would be livid and would probably sue for restraint of trade.

Oh yeah, and the system would also kill off international rugby league for good. Imagine if some young kid gets offered a place in the Samoa squad for a world cup and, say, Craig Bellamy doesn't want him to take the extra X points for being an international rep. He just says "up to you if you want to play international football, but we don't have cap room to re-sign another international for next year". All of a sudden players are dropping like flies with mystery injuries before international games.

Plus, you're now effectively placing cap management in the hands of rep selectors. Remember when Nathan Merritt got called up for the Blues and played the worst game in origin history? Well, under the rep points system he's now worth less to any club as well because he's officially a rep player and they can't have too many of them.

The problem with all these "how to fix the salary cap" ideas is that they sound great in the pub but when you actually consider the ramifications and how they would play out in roster management they tend to fall apart. Mind you, you could say the same about most of the recent rule changes and that hasn't stopped the halfwits running the show from pushing them through, so we'll probably get some nonsense like this if it appeals to V'Landys.


I understand, but I did only give a very simplistic view of how it works e.g.: A Soman player would be classed as a second tier RL nation would only be charged at half the rate of a NZ or Aust player. There is a lot of ways this can work but its not unworkable

So a player would be disadvantaged by being born in Australia? What if the best player in the game is playing for a 2nd tier nation?

Justin olam is a prime example

Look at hia back story vs what he is doing now

The bloke is the best centre in game atm

 

[Alex Seyfarth's #1 Fan]

Can the mods please encourage people to only post about signings rumours and suggestions in this thread? It's almost unreadable.

The mods continually clean it up, but it always gets derailed again.

 

[aturkey]


Hahaha Brooksey the underrated gem!! *

He's just a running five eighth who plays halfback *

He's just a non controlling half unwittingly being made to take control *

He just doesn't have the right forward pack *

He's just a hooker accidentally playing in the halves *

He's the best defensive halfback in the league, didn't you hear?? *

Have you seen his LINE ENGAGEMENT
stats??? *

He's unfairly scapegoated!!! *

Brooks. Is. Not. The. Problem. *









*SIKE

Do you not like brooks?

I think he's brain-shatteringly average. Bog average to the point it fogs my brain having to watch him play. Then I come here and see people act like holding onto him for 7 years in what is the most important position is not one of our glaring problems.

 

[aturkey]


Hahaha Brooksey the underrated gem!! *

He's just a running five eighth who plays halfback *

He's just a non controlling half unwittingly being made to take control *

He just doesn't have the right forward pack *

He's just a hooker accidentally playing in the halves *

He's the best defensive halfback in the league, didn't you hear?? *

Have you seen his LINE ENGAGEMENT
stats??? *

He's unfairly scapegoated!!! *

Brooks. Is. Not. The. Problem. *









*SIKE


Funny enough but you may have hit on a good idea, play Brooks as hooker
Fast enough, has a decent pass tackling is passable and can kick if really needed. Definitely
better than our other hooker options. If Damien Cook can go from half to hooker ..........

It'll never happen so it's a mute suggestion

 

[JC99]

Brent Read reporting that Marata Niukore is most likely going to leave the Eels and is available to talk to come November 1st

He can play second row, centre and in the middle effectively and should 100% be a target of ours. Sign him for 2023 and agitate for an early release

 

[balmain boy]

I feel it my bones that somethings cooking that will be ready by the end of next week.
Or then again it could be just my Rheumatoid arthritis!

I remain positive Hartigan and Sheens can work it to attract some really good young players and maybe a capable vet to improve the roster.

Just plain childish, rude and ignorant to not mention the coach, fgs do you not think players and their managers won’t know.
You lost the battle, get over it.

One is GM of Football, the other Coaching Director and both senior to Maguire.

Deal with it.

I don't think anyone other than you @pawsandclaws1 needs to deal with it.

We all get it that you must be shattered that you could be so glaringly and obviously wrong through your prolonged and rubbish posts on here about the demise of Maguire.

But, to try to convince us all about some WT organisational structure that you have invented to ease your embarrassment is, in equal parts, funny and sad.

Paws is right though.

So, you're a "paws" apologist and fanboy. No surprise that you would think he is "right". He, and you, got it horribly wrong on the sacking of Maguire, so good luck with trying to convince us otherwise.

The problem is this - players aren't coming to the club to play under Hartigan - they're coming to play under Madge. And rightly or wrongly, he's about appealing as a holiday on Venus.

The question I have is then why have Hartigan recruiting players at all. Either they want to play under Maguire or they just want a pay cheque.

Sick of the Hartigan talk. From what I've seen he is just another part of the problem.

His position is just complicating the process

So you'd rather not have Stefano and Laurie playing for us? :face_with_rolling_eyes:

 

[yeahcaz]

I feel it my bones that somethings cooking that will be ready by the end of next week.
Or then again it could be just my Rheumatoid arthritis!

I remain positive Hartigan and Sheens can work it to attract some really good young players and maybe a capable vet to improve the roster.

Just plain childish, rude and ignorant to not mention the coach, fgs do you not think players and their managers won’t know.
You lost the battle, get over it.

One is GM of Football, the other Coaching Director and both senior to Maguire.

Deal with it.

I don't think anyone other than you @pawsandclaws1 needs to deal with it.

We all get it that you must be shattered that you could be so glaringly and obviously wrong through your prolonged and rubbish posts on here about the demise of Maguire.

But, to try to convince us all about some WT organisational structure that you have invented to ease your embarrassment is, in equal parts, funny and sad.

Paws is right though.

So, you're a "paws" apologist and fanboy. No surprise that you would think he is "right". He, and you, got it horribly wrong on the sacking of Maguire, so good luck with trying to convince us otherwise.

The problem is this - players aren't coming to the club to play under Hartigan - they're coming to play under Madge. And rightly or wrongly, he's about appealing as a holiday on Venus.

The question I have is then why have Hartigan recruiting players at all. Either they want to play under Maguire or they just want a pay cheque.

Sick of the Hartigan talk. From what I've seen he is just another part of the problem.

His position is just complicating the process

So you'd rather not have Stefano and Laurie playing for us? :face_with_rolling_eyes:

Wont matter if they leave us in 2 years time. His next focus should be retaining them

 

[Harvey]

We have the Signing Suggestions and Rumours thread. We need someone to start the Actual signings thread.

The way things are going it would be lucky to get off the first page.

 

[Pascoes_barber]

We have the Signing Suggestions and Rumours thread. We need someone to start the Actual signings thread.

The way things are going it would be lucky to get off the first page.

Be lucky to see the first post.

 

[Alex Seyfarth's #1 Fan]

Brent Read reporting that Martin Niukore is most likely going to leave the Eels and is available to talk to come November 1st

He can play second row, centre and in the middle effectively and should 100% be a target of ours. Sign him for 2023 and agitate for an early release

Reminds me a bit of Bodene Thompson. He could be a star with the right opportunity. Seems to do well in whatever role the Eels give him.

 

[tigger19]

Niukore I read is on around 500-550k at the eels, hard to believe when he is often overlooked or coming off the bench

 

[yeahcaz]

Niukore I read is on around 500-550k at the eels, hard to believe when he is often overlooked or coming off the bench

Mm no I don’t think that’s right. I think that’s what he’s been offered by the dragons and warriors

 

[tigger19]

Niukore I read is on around 500-550k at the eels, hard to believe when he is often overlooked or coming off the bench

Mm no I don’t think that’s right. I think that’s what he’s been offered by the dragons and warriors

Via fox sports

Clint Gutherson $750,000, Dylan Brown $500,000, Ryan Matterson $550,000, Reed Mahoney $550,000, Isaiah Papali’i $600,000, Junior Paulo $700,000 and Marata Niukore $550,000 are all off contract and are worth a total of $4,200,000 based on their projected base rates for their next contract.

 

[yeahcaz]

Niukore I read is on around 500-550k at the eels, hard to believe when he is often overlooked or coming off the bench

Mm no I don’t think that’s right. I think that’s what he’s been offered by the dragons and warriors

Via fox sports

Clint Gutherson $750,000, Dylan Brown $500,000, Ryan Matterson $550,000, Reed Mahoney $550,000, Isaiah Papali’i $600,000, Junior Paulo $700,000 and Marata Niukore $550,000 are all off contract and are worth a total of $4,200,000 based on their projected base rates for their next contract.

Well that is crazy to me. Kids good but that is too much. No wonder they’re in strife

 

[jadtiger]

Niukore I read is on around 500-550k at the eels, hard to believe when he is often overlooked or coming off the bench

Mm no I don’t think that’s right. I think that’s what he’s been offered by the dragons and warriors

Via fox sports

Clint Gutherson $750,000, Dylan Brown $500,000, Ryan Matterson $550,000, Reed Mahoney $550,000, Isaiah Papali’i $600,000, Junior Paulo $700,000 and Marata Niukore $550,000 are all off contract and are worth a total of $4,200,000 based on their projected base rates for their next contract.

Well that is crazy to me. Kids good but that is too much. No wonder they’re in strife

It is Fox so i would not read too much into those figures,380-400 would be more realistic imo

 

[JC99]

I've been told by a pretty decent source that Ash Taylor is close to signing with us. Not a done deal but apparently we are in talks

Doesn't make much sense to be with us having four halves on the roster already. I know Doueihi will miss some games and Hastings is an unknown quantity but seems a bit pointless to me. Not sure on length or cost

 

[pawsandclaws1]

I've been told by a pretty decent source that Ash Taylor is close to signing with us. Not a done deal but apparently we are in talks

Doesn't make much sense to be with us having four halves on the roster already. I know Doueihi will miss some games and Hastings is an unknown quantity but seems a bit pointless to me. Not sure on length or cost

Taylor is a highly talented player and if on his game will be a huge asset to WTs.

 

[JC99]

I've been told by a pretty decent source that Ash Taylor is close to signing with us. Not a done deal but apparently we are in talks

Doesn't make much sense to be with us having four halves on the roster already. I know Doueihi will miss some games and Hastings is an unknown quantity but seems a bit pointless to me. Not sure on length or cost

Taylor is a highly talented player and if on his game will be a huge asset to WTs.

Unfortunately he hasn't been on his game for a very long time

 

[pawsandclaws1]

I've been told by a pretty decent source that Ash Taylor is close to signing with us. Not a done deal but apparently we are in talks

Doesn't make much sense to be with us having four halves on the roster already. I know Doueihi will miss some games and Hastings is an unknown quantity but seems a bit pointless to me. Not sure on length or cost

Taylor is a highly talented player and if on his game will be a huge asset to WTs.

Unfortunately he hasn't been on his game for a very long time

For what he allegedly is seeking, I'd take him.