The calls. Good and bad

[Tweed_Tiger]

Yeh some bad calls but we should of been good enough to still win the game.

Let ourselves down in the end.

Pretty happy we have been in every game this year.

 

[innsaneink]

Yeah… The camera angle from the sideline it definitely looked forward... The other angles not so.

Does next week really tell us where we're at and if we're the real deal?

 

[Telltails]

There are provisions to check for forward passes that lead to tries!
If they check for every other detail a blatant and obvious forward pass can also be determined.

I thought it was the one thing the bunker could not adjudicate on?

They can't..it does seem silly..something to do with inertia as most passes do go forward..they say they can't determine whether the pass was out of the hand backwards which is fine or thrown forward which is not due to Camera angles …

I IQed the game and step up my own little rockin n rollin bunker for the Moses pass from one side it looks ok from the other open side to me he clearly flicks the ball forward out of his hand...I guess that's why they let the refs n touchies make the call..

Yes- the bunker doesnt rule on forward passes. But the point I was trying to make is it seems ridiculous that if the replay shows that a pass is clearly forward why not rule on it?
When a forward pass can be ruled by a ref or touch judge by the naked eye - if the ref has a concern about a pass leading to a try surely there are enough camera angles to determine whether a ball is clearly forward or not. No problem with flat balls being let go but some stand out like proverbial you know whats, and when you lose a game that way its hard to cop.

 

[eyewonder]

dont know what the draw is but we should benefit over the state of origin draw as it is unlikely the tigers will have any players involved.
To be objective,the team may have overachieved in the first six rounds and now reality strikes.
as supporters we may have to moderate out expectations somewhat.
anyway,ill still be cheering for the team.

 

[jirskyr]

There are provisions to check for forward passes that lead to tries!
If they check for every other detail a blatant and obvious forward pass can also be determined.

I thought it was the one thing the bunker could not adjudicate on?

They can't..it does seem silly..something to do with inertia as most passes do go forward..they say they can't determine whether the pass was out of the hand backwards which is fine or thrown forward which is not due to Camera angles …

I IQed the game and step up my own little rockin n rollin bunker for the Moses pass from one side it looks ok from the other open side to me he clearly flicks the ball forward out of his hand...I guess that's why they let the refs n touchies make the call..

Yes you said it, because different angles give different apparent views, due to the 3D space. I mean if 4/5 angles show it forward, it's probably forward, but you can't introduce a rule that you only apply to some passes, "the obvious ones". Then you get into all these semantics about not going to the video for borderline passes.

IIRC, when video refs were first introduced they ruled on forward passes, but then it became such a mess that they removed that judgement.

As to why they can't rule on forwards, it's purely the physics. Anything to do with a flat plane is reviewable on TV - offsides (you just draw a line across the field), grounding, feet in touch etc.

But remembering TV is a 2D representation of a 3D reality. With passes specifically, there are 4 dimensions to deal with: not just the lateral concept of backwards wrt the turf (1 dimension), but up/down, diagonals and then the relative position of passer and catcher.

I've previously referenced this good clip that shows how relative player position has an impact on how the vision appears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

I am of the understanding that they don't have enough video angles to triangulate whether or not a pass was forward with the current technology. Cricket has Eagle Eye which can determine 3D space for referred LBWs, but that is a fixed point on the field, not the entire field.

Tennis uses Hawkeye but again that's only dealing with 1 plane, i.e. ball touching the court.

So apart from needing a million cameras to be sure a pass was forward, I understand the next best possibility is actually to have the football monitor itself, i.e. insert a chip with some sort of GPS and gyro, which can feed back when it moves forward wrt its former position. But even that would be fraught with challenges - how does the footy know whether it's being held or not (i.e. run forward vs passed), what about passes that travel forward relative to the ground but backwards relative to the passes due to momentum etc

They were talking about this years ago but obviously it's either not feasible or not ready yet, because I'm sure a reasonable-priced solution to forward passes would be popular for both elite rugby codes?

 

[sideline_eye]

I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule… if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.

 

[WestsBenTigers]

I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule… if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.

What about if there is a high-speed wind that takes the ball forward even though it came out of the hands backwards?

 

[sideline_eye]

I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule… if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.

What about if there is a high-speed wind that takes the ball forward even though it came out of the hands backwards?

Well, what if a sink hole opened up and everyone fell into it and then the opposition scored because we had no players on the field because they were all underground? What if we fell into the sink hole and passed the ball forward but the ref couldn't see it? He'd probably call it forward because we had the ball!

Look, nothing is perfect but what I'm saying is that the whole premise of this game is that you have to pass the ball backwards and you can't be offside, so the simpler the rule is , the easier it is to adjudicate and less controversy follows. Although I'd have to agree that some of our refs wouldn't get it right no matter how simple it is.

 

[Harvey]

Yesterdays officials were disgracefully one sided. Parramatta were constantly offside for the last 15 minutes & it was ignored.

The standard of officiating this year is disgraceful. Even the bunker is getting blindingly obvious calls wrong. Todd Greeberg's solution, a stupid cliched hashtag.

 

[Russell]

We, once again have made it more complicated.

Whether the ball travels backwards from the hands was never the criteria.

If the ball was caught in front of where the player passed the ball - it was a forward pass.

worked for years - there were referee errors yes, but not like they are now.

 

[jirskyr]

I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule… if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.

I wrote a big thing earlier, but in summary, a forward pass doesn't travel in a single plane. Imagine if I throw the ball perfectly straight up into the air - how does it travel in relation to an observable line on the field? Well, wrt a camera on half-way and I'm at either end (normal setup), it appears to move away from the lines behind me and towards the lines in front of me. In fact it may even cross a few lines if I throw it high enough.

What if I'm standing on the halfway line with the camera? It moves exactly up and down the halfway line.

Given that the ball went exactly up and neither forward nor backwards, by my definition, it is not a forward pass and yet it would meet your definition of a ball moving towards or away from a line.

It might seem a stupid example, but the point is that passes don't always travel exactly parallel to the ground, they have elevation, like a ball thrown up in the air does. e.g. The Hooth passing from his own chest to Corey Thompson's chest. Elevation influences the appearance of forward or backward motion in a pass.

As to "ball travelling forward = a forward pass", watch the youtube video. Anyone running imparts forward momentum on a football, and if you throw that football sideways whilst running, it retains that forward momentum. Many many passes on a footy field, especially those from line breaks, are actually moving forward in absolute respect to the ground, but not in respect to the bloke passing it.

Or try it for yourself - try throwing a tennis ball out of a moving car window and see how backwards the ball goes.

 

[Geo]

Newton has a lot to answer for..in relation to forward passes..damn him and his laws to hell..

 

[WestsBenTigers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

 

[jirskyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

Thank you.

Embed rather than link hey?

 

[Warble]

The calls were frustrating for a one-eyed fan. I don't feel it was consistent for both teams.
We did play poorly compared to earlier weeks but it was positive to see our tries come from well worked moves, instead of tries from penalties that swung momentum.
We're a fiercely competitive side compared to previous years. I still reckon $26 to win the premiership is a great price. Get on!

 

[Blaze]

Was sitting at the ground aiming parra supporters, I gotta say, they are some of the whingingest mob I’ve ever been around…. every play the we’re bitching about us being off side... lol it’s like they only knew one rule and just kept repeating it all arvo... and the ground announcer.... dear lord.... I understand pumping up the crowd, but let me concentrate on the game for God’s sake....

 

[TCL]

they were forward passes and the refs got it wrong in MIO.

But we should have better

 

[razor7]

Yep if I was a Parra supporter and had to listen to that ground announcer(screamer) every week I simply would not attend games. It was that bad.

 

[Blaze]

Even playing music two to three tackles in after a break! Did my head in…

 

[sideline_eye]

I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule… if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.

I wrote a big thing earlier, but in summary, a forward pass doesn't travel in a single plane. Imagine if I throw the ball perfectly straight up into the air - how does it travel in relation to an observable line on the field? Well, wrt a camera on half-way and I'm at either end (normal setup), it appears to move away from the lines behind me and towards the lines in front of me. In fact it may even cross a few lines if I throw it high enough.

What if I'm standing on the halfway line with the camera? It moves exactly up and down the halfway line.

Given that the ball went exactly up and neither forward nor backwards, by my definition, it is not a forward pass and yet it would meet your definition of a ball moving towards or away from a line.

It might seem a stupid example, but the point is that passes don't always travel exactly parallel to the ground, they have elevation, like a ball thrown up in the air does. e.g. The Hooth passing from his own chest to Corey Thompson's chest. Elevation influences the appearance of forward or backward motion in a pass.

As to "ball travelling forward = a forward pass", watch the youtube video. Anyone running imparts forward momentum on a football, and if you throw that football sideways whilst running, it retains that forward momentum. Many many passes on a footy field, especially those from line breaks, are actually moving forward in absolute respect to the ground, but not in respect to the bloke passing it.

Or try it for yourself - try throwing a tennis ball out of a moving car window and see how backwards the ball goes.

OK, I accept that, so how can we simplify the adjudication? If we can't go by the direction the ball travels over the ground, we need to look at something else. So, what if we say that the bunker can rule on forward passes in the same way that they rule on offside plays. That is, if the passer throws the ball to another player who is in front of the passer at the moment of release, then that is deemed a forward pass; indeed it means that the receiver is offside. All it takes is for the replay to be frozen at the point of release and the relative positions of the passer and receiver checked just as happens now with kicks.

I saw in the Australian Rugby video that a truly forward pass would be almost impossible to catch but I also noted that they used the example of two players some metres apart and running at near top speed. I don't disagree with that but if the players were closer together, for instance with a short offload, this no longer applies; the ball can easily be caught and it would show up in the replay whether the receiver was offside or not.

If this was done when the referee goes to the bunker for confirmation of the try, a penalty should be given when the receiver is in front of the passer, just the same as any other offside play. I'd be interested to know what others think of this, my never ending quest for truth, justice, the American way and the detection of forward passes and offside play.