The "it is us, not Madge" argument...

[earl]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.


Yep, should have stuck with Taylor, he might have turned it around by now. . .

This guy was the worst but he was also on a hiding to nothing.

 

[ElleryHanley]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

We also need to get rid of some senior players and replace them with better players. I trust Madge much more over Cleary or Taylor to get that right.

I also agree that Madge's tactics don't appear to be quality. The ranting and raving to me is stupid but I doubt he is doing that all the time. It's like a temper tantrum and Bellamy does it as well.

You are correct in that it's a massive gamble trusting Madge to get this crop of players to perform over the next couple of years but so is getting any coach and Cleary or Taylor for instance would be to me more risky because I don't trust them to get rid of the right players or bring in the right players.

Sacking the coach isn't going to save us. It's why I think stick with the guy and see if he can somehow develop a good squad and get them playing well.

We aren't turning this around this season. Next season may see some improvements but only if the players coming in are a lot better than the ones we lose.

Valid points....and I would counter it by saying, at the very least, if Madge stays (as you want) then he HAS to appoint vastly better assistants for attack 'and' D.

Stay as a leader (like Bennet) but hand off all tactics and D to young, modern, coaches.

 

[ElleryHanley]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

That would be valid were it within a 5 year timeframe, but it was 2014. The game has changed a lot and he had an absolutely stacked roster that year.

Michael Hagan won a comp...

Also won in England. Mate with guys like BJ and Garner here we aren’t going to win, good coaches like Bellamy would laugh at coaching this roster.

"Everyone" wins in the UK SL if you go to Wigan, Leeds or Saints. Literally, everyone...Steve Price, Adrian Lam, they all win.

 

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

I was a fan when we appointed him and I think his first 12 months were good.

But, yes, I think we will improve with a new coach.

The roster + the reggies roster (2nd) combined is not that of a club that looks like it will be fighting the historically bad Dogs for the wooden spoon. We are not that bad.

Your second grade roster doesn’t help you win NRL games. You need first grade talent. Recruitment and retention is absolutely the problem and it starts and finishes with the board and the executives, we are a farce and a quite frankly a laughing stock.

Yes, it 'does' help you win games...you need several down there who can come in and not let you down. We have those players now, especially the pack.

Only if you’re like the Roosters and have first grade talent down there and you have leaders to guide them. On evidence that I’ve seen, we don’t.

 

[happy_tiger]

The minute the pressure went onto Madge ...the players had an out clause ...and will until he is gone

We only replace Madge if we can upgrade him

I'm not sure we can upgrade him

This squad is as bad as we have had .....you can talk about 2002/03 ...but you knew it and they had a dig every week

 

[Guest]

The minute the pressure went onto Madge ...the players had an out clause ...and will until he is gone

We only replace Madge if we can upgrade him

I'm not sure we can upgrade him

This squad is as bad as we have had .....you can talk about 2002/03 ...but you knew it and they had a dig every week

The squad is way better than what Cleary had to work with.

 

[happy_tiger]

The minute the pressure went onto Madge ...the players had an out clause ...and will until he is gone

We only replace Madge if we can upgrade him

I'm not sure we can upgrade him

This squad is as bad as we have had .....you can talk about 2002/03 ...but you knew it and they had a dig every week

The squad is way better than what Cleary had to work with.

They had a heartbeat .....this squad doesn't

 

[jirskyr]

Belongs in he Madge thread 100%

Is that one of those "it's not you, it's me" comments, where it really is "you"?

 

[BermiTiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

 

[TrueTiger]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

 

[avocadoontoast]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

If you ignore his Tigers record (which is awful), at Souths he won 18 of his last 51 games. That's with a team that included Inglis, Burgess brothers, Reynolds, Cook, Walker. He used to be able to coach but since 2016 he's totally lost it.

 

[jirskyr]

Can I toss up Cleary here vs Cleary at Penrith then? It’s us mate.

Cleary had a good record here though...

50% with us (first year)

46% first year back at Panthers.

Well now he’s a 99% guy

So... given enough time he can turn it around? Interesting stat about Cleary, in the last 10 years 2011-2020, he only has a > 50% winning record 3 out of 9 coaching seasons (including the first partial year with Tigers). The second year Tigers, as noted, was bang-on 50%.

And now he's almost undefeated in 1.3 seasons.

 

[BAGNF05]

The minute the pressure went onto Madge ...the players had an out clause ...and will until he is gone

We only replace Madge if we can upgrade him

I'm not sure we can upgrade him

This squad is as bad as we have had .....you can talk about 2002/03 ...but you knew it and they had a dig every week

The squad is way better than what Cleary had to work with.

But Packer and Mbye were playing for Ivan because he set them up for life.

 

[jirskyr]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

That would be valid were it within a 5 year timeframe, but it was 2014. The game has changed a lot and he had an absolutely stacked roster that year.

Michael Hagan won a comp...

Michael Hagan also intrumental in Mal Meninga coaching however many straight QLD Origin wins.

 

[happy_tiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

 

[BermiTiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

 

[TrueTiger]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

If you ignore his Tigers record (which is awful), at Souths he won 18 of his last 51 games. That's with a team that included Inglis, Burgess brothers, Reynolds, Cook, Walker. He used to be able to coach but since 2016 he's totally lost it.

And won a premiership....Bennett now with a similar roster and good players all around got thumped 50 nil by Melb,but of course there are excuses for WB...
He also won plenty of premierships at other clubs but left them in dissaray,Saints and Newcastle come to mind..at least Madge is trying to fix the core problem here so he can start winning games and put this club on a better platform than where it has been...

 

[avocadoontoast]

at least Madge is trying to fix the core problem here so he can start winning games and put this club on a better platform than where it has been…

He's trying, but he's failing, because he can't man manage and he can't adapt to the modern game.

 

[happy_tiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

 

[BermiTiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

How did Penrith do it? They had clear pathways in place from Matts, Ball, Flegg (20's) and invested heavily here. A well publicised plan to make them a powerhouse. It took time but they were then able to sell the vision to the 10-50 players that we just need some experience and maturity around these young guys to take the team to the next level. Who in the current Penrith team is even a top 50 recruit? I would argue there is not one of them. Kikau was a Cowboys junior who came to them highly rated but with no first grade experience, Koroisau came back to them after a stint away. Capable but I don't think would have been in anyone's top 3 in the position at the time. And Capewell is capable but certainly wasn't top 50 when he signed.