The "it is us, not Madge" argument...

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

No he is not, he is saying Madge still thinks the game is the same as 2014 when he won, he is sticking to that formula, when the game has changed a heap, and that formula is clearly outdated and not working.
He is saying Madge was a good coach, won a premiership, but the game has gone past him, same as Benji, he won a premiership, the game is now past him too

Rugby league at its core does not change mate, the team that plays with desire, runs harder and tackles harder, wants the victory more than their opponents will win more than they lose. I don’t doubt Madge’s want one bit, he looks physically ill watching our duds put in a half-baked effort. Mark my words his replacement will suffer the exact same fate.

Edit: Bellamy doesn’t change his tactics much at all. He finds men of character and ethics and teaches them to do the basics right.

 

[BAGNF05]

Also based on the Wests Tigers inconsistency for a decade. Are we saying these coaches can coach every second or third week? Come on guys it’s culture not coaching.

 

[BermiTiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

How did Penrith do it? They had clear pathways in place from Matts, Ball, Flegg (20's) and invested heavily here. A well publicised plan to make them a powerhouse. It took time but they were then able to sell the vision to the 10-50 players that we just need some experience and maturity around these young guys to take the team to the next level. Who in the current Penrith team is even a top 50 recruit? I would argue there is not one of them. Kikau was a Cowboys junior who came to them highly rated but with no first grade experience, Koroisau came back to them after a stint away. Capable but I don't think would have been in anyone's top 3 in the position at the time. And Capewell is capable but certainly wasn't top 50 when he signed.

Koroisau turned their club around ......and whether people like it or not became who he was at Manly

Capewell wasn't getting a chance at the Sharks and when you win MOTM awards at SOO level your the real deal

And Kikau .....I've seen 5 blokes I was convinced would be superstars from Under 20's ...he was one of them ...and seeing 3 of the other 4 were Cleary ,Tedesco , Ponga ...enough said

Capewell may very well be the real deal now but when he signed he was no where near the top 50 players in the comp (I still don't think he is personally). All I am saying is if the juniors and culture are strong then you do not need to be signing the big names. Panthers have not signed a Cronk, Tedesco or Mitchell. All their superstars are in house. This is what we need to be focusing on and what I think we are doing.

 

[Goanna57]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

We also need to get rid of some senior players and replace them with better players. I trust Madge much more over Cleary or Taylor to get that right.

I also agree that Madge's tactics don't appear to be quality. The ranting and raving to me is stupid but I doubt he is doing that all the time. It's like a temper tantrum and Bellamy does it as well.

You are correct in that it's a massive gamble trusting Madge to get this crop of players to perform over the next couple of years but so is getting any coach and Cleary or Taylor for instance would be to me more risky because I don't trust them to get rid of the right players or bring in the right players.

Sacking the coach isn't going to save us. It's why I think stick with the guy and see if he can somehow develop a good squad and get them playing well.

We aren't turning this around this season. Next season may see some improvements but only if the players coming in are a lot better than the ones we lose.

Yes that’s the great thing about supporting this club there’s always next season. But at my age those seasons are running out

 

[happy_tiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

How did Penrith do it? They had clear pathways in place from Matts, Ball, Flegg (20's) and invested heavily here. A well publicised plan to make them a powerhouse. It took time but they were then able to sell the vision to the 10-50 players that we just need some experience and maturity around these young guys to take the team to the next level. Who in the current Penrith team is even a top 50 recruit? I would argue there is not one of them. Kikau was a Cowboys junior who came to them highly rated but with no first grade experience, Koroisau came back to them after a stint away. Capable but I don't think would have been in anyone's top 3 in the position at the time. And Capewell is capable but certainly wasn't top 50 when he signed.

Koroisau turned their club around ......and whether people like it or not became who he was at Manly

Capewell wasn't getting a chance at the Sharks and when you win MOTM awards at SOO level your the real deal

And Kikau .....I've seen 5 blokes I was convinced would be superstars from Under 20's ...he was one of them ...and seeing 3 of the other 4 were Cleary ,Tedesco , Ponga ...enough said

Capewell may very well be the real deal now but when he signed he was no where near the top 50 players in the comp (I still don't think he is personally). All I am saying is if the juniors and culture are strong then you do not need to be signing the big names. Panthers have not signed a Cronk, Tedesco or Mitchell. All their superstars are in house. This is what we need to be focusing on and what I think we are doing.

Except none our juniors are within cooee of the Penrith juniors and are all being brought in from the outside

I think when I brought this up Geo could only find one player .....How many from outside our walls have resigned in the last 5 years .......it was Aloiai ...well that got blown out of the water .....Simpkin can be added to the list

 

[851]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

No he is not, he is saying Madge still thinks the game is the same as 2014 when he won, he is sticking to that formula, when the game has changed a heap, and that formula is clearly outdated and not working.
He is saying Madge was a good coach, won a premiership, but the game has gone past him, same as Benji, he won a premiership, the game is now past him too

Rugby league at its core does not change mate, the team that plays with desire, runs harder and tackles harder, wants the victory more than their opponents will win more than they lose. I don’t doubt Madge’s want one bit, he looks physically ill watching our duds put in a half-baked effort. Mark my words his replacement will suffer the exact same fate.

Edit: Bellamy doesn’t change his tactics much at all. He finds men of character and ethics and teaches them to do the basics right.

The game does change, the ruck speed quickens, the big forwards Madge loves are getting caught out, even Papalii is struggling.
And Bellamy is constantly changing, hell the league had to change rules to combat his ever changing styles

 

[coivtny]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

We also need to get rid of some senior players and replace them with better players. I trust Madge much more over Cleary or Taylor to get that right.

I also agree that Madge's tactics don't appear to be quality. The ranting and raving to me is stupid but I doubt he is doing that all the time. It's like a temper tantrum and Bellamy does it as well.

You are correct in that it's a massive gamble trusting Madge to get this crop of players to perform over the next couple of years but so is getting any coach and Cleary or Taylor for instance would be to me more risky because I don't trust them to get rid of the right players or bring in the right players.

Sacking the coach isn't going to save us. It's why I think stick with the guy and see if he can somehow develop a good squad and get them playing well.

We aren't turning this around this season. Next season may see some improvements but only if the players coming in are a lot better than the ones we lose.

Yes that’s the great thing about supporting this club there’s always next season. But at my age those seasons are running out

I know how you feel mate. I was in my car with my youngest son (he's 32) the other day and I said "you know mate, my next car is probably going to be my last" and he replied "maybe not, this could be your last". I may well not see another premiership at the rate WT are going.

 

[Guest]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

We also need to get rid of some senior players and replace them with better players. I trust Madge much more over Cleary or Taylor to get that right.

I also agree that Madge's tactics don't appear to be quality. The ranting and raving to me is stupid but I doubt he is doing that all the time. It's like a temper tantrum and Bellamy does it as well.

You are correct in that it's a massive gamble trusting Madge to get this crop of players to perform over the next couple of years but so is getting any coach and Cleary or Taylor for instance would be to me more risky because I don't trust them to get rid of the right players or bring in the right players.

Sacking the coach isn't going to save us. It's why I think stick with the guy and see if he can somehow develop a good squad and get them playing well.

We aren't turning this around this season. Next season may see some improvements but only if the players coming in are a lot better than the ones we lose.

Yes that’s the great thing about supporting this club there’s always next season. But at my age those seasons are running out

How boring must it be to support Melbourne. Winning game after game, year after year.
Boring.
Imagine how sweet it will be when Wests rise like Godzilla and conquer all in front of them after decades of pain.
That's what's keeping me hanging around on the planet.

 

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

No he is not, he is saying Madge still thinks the game is the same as 2014 when he won, he is sticking to that formula, when the game has changed a heap, and that formula is clearly outdated and not working.
He is saying Madge was a good coach, won a premiership, but the game has gone past him, same as Benji, he won a premiership, the game is now past him too

Rugby league at its core does not change mate, the team that plays with desire, runs harder and tackles harder, wants the victory more than their opponents will win more than they lose. I don’t doubt Madge’s want one bit, he looks physically ill watching our duds put in a half-baked effort. Mark my words his replacement will suffer the exact same fate.

Edit: Bellamy doesn’t change his tactics much at all. He finds men of character and ethics and teaches them to do the basics right.

The game does change, the ruck speed quickens, the big forwards Madge loves are getting caught out, even Papalii is struggling.
And Bellamy is constantly changing, hell the league had to change rules to combat his ever changing styles

I said at its core, I know the game makes changes but all that really does is change where and how much effort is needed.

Faster ruck = more effort required
Keeping up with smaller forwards = more effort required
Overcoming Bellamy’s wrestling = winning the ruck = more effort required

Madge can’t coach effort, it’s about finding players who will go there when needed.

 

[BermiTiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

How did Penrith do it? They had clear pathways in place from Matts, Ball, Flegg (20's) and invested heavily here. A well publicised plan to make them a powerhouse. It took time but they were then able to sell the vision to the 10-50 players that we just need some experience and maturity around these young guys to take the team to the next level. Who in the current Penrith team is even a top 50 recruit? I would argue there is not one of them. Kikau was a Cowboys junior who came to them highly rated but with no first grade experience, Koroisau came back to them after a stint away. Capable but I don't think would have been in anyone's top 3 in the position at the time. And Capewell is capable but certainly wasn't top 50 when he signed.

Koroisau turned their club around ......and whether people like it or not became who he was at Manly

Capewell wasn't getting a chance at the Sharks and when you win MOTM awards at SOO level your the real deal

And Kikau .....I've seen 5 blokes I was convinced would be superstars from Under 20's ...he was one of them ...and seeing 3 of the other 4 were Cleary ,Tedesco , Ponga ...enough said

Capewell may very well be the real deal now but when he signed he was no where near the top 50 players in the comp (I still don't think he is personally). All I am saying is if the juniors and culture are strong then you do not need to be signing the big names. Panthers have not signed a Cronk, Tedesco or Mitchell. All their superstars are in house. This is what we need to be focusing on and what I think we are doing.

Except none our juniors are within cooee of the Penrith juniors and are all being brought in from the outside

I think when I brought this up Geo could only find one player .....How many from outside our walls have resigned in the last 5 years .......it was Aloiai ...well that got blown out of the water .....Simpkin can be added to the list

They are being brought in as they are being sold a vision and a clear path to first grade (if they are up to it). Poaching the best juniors is going to be needed just like Kikau was targeted. I honestly don't think we are differing that much in opinion.

 

[jirskyr]

You’ve listed a lot of detail there but you seem to have brushed over 2017, so let’s look at that year in a bit more detail. All Burgess brothers healthy, halves combo of Reynolds and Walker, Cook at hooker with Farah off the bench and Crichton at 2R. Sutton still a productive player. Alex Johnston at fullback

Didn't brush over it at all. In fact is a crux of my argument. Souths 2017 lost Keary to Roosters and Inglis played one match. That's massive, that's two very key players.

You said it yourself - Alex Johnston at fullback. A very capable winger, very ordinary fullback. Actually only lasted ~8 weeks at FB, got shifted to the wing in favour of Cody Walker. Put back in FB towards end of the year when Madge put Walker back to 5/8th and shifted Sutton to the forwards. Mind you that's 2017 Cody Walker not 2020 Cody Walker - he didn't debut until 2016.

I'll give you a counter-argument: Roosters 2016. Second-last inside a run of 7 seasons otherwise finishing no worse than 2nd on the ladder. Team: Cordner, Origin-level Ferguson, Friend, Origin-level Guerra, Isaac Liu, a young Joey Manu, Ryan Matto, Latrell, Napa, Taukeiaho, Tupou, JWH, Connor Watson. How is that possible? Trent Robinson the coach, outstanding record at the club previously.

Stone cold second last, and basically because Mitch Pearce pretended to abuse a dog and missed half the season. You can very easily take one or two key players out of a side and derail their season.

Seibold takes Rabbits back to finals with a roster almost entirely constructed by Madge, but he can't get anywhere near it with what is still a fairly decent Broncos roster on paper.

Now I'm not saying Madge got it wrong, because those were unsuccessful seasons, but Madge had 6 seasons at Rabbits and only 2 of those were losing seasons. That was after Rabbits having made the finals once previously since 1989. Did he forget how to coach all of a sudden? He got Rabbits 3rd or better for his first 3 seasons and the club is still dining out on the talent he brought to and nurtured at the club when he was there.

My opinion honestly is there are 3 legitimately great modern coaches who simply get results - Bellamy, Robinson and Bennett. The records speak for themselves. Every single other coach "has his moments". Quite a few of them really can coach - Hasler, Stuart, Brad Arthur, Madge (I reckon) - but they can't get always get results every year because rugby league is hard, and most clubs have fortunes that, dare I say it, ebb and flow.

 

[Merlot]

Bennett a stand out there

 

[Magpieger]

Souffs can't get through a door-way without their stink-lines getting snagged.

 

[Magpieger]

C'mooooon Tigez!!!

 

[Goanna57]

We must be really bad at selecting coaches.. Changing one hasn't worked in a decade. Maybe this time will be different. Not before another rebuild though, can't wait for that.

Ok so let’s keep the coach as many are saying and get rid of a lot of the non performing players isn’t that a rebuild as well just asking

 

[TrueTiger]

We must be really bad at selecting coaches.. Changing one hasn't worked in a decade. Maybe this time will be different. Not before another rebuild though, can't wait for that.

Ok so let’s keep the coach as many are saying and get rid of a lot of the non performing players isn’t that a rebuild as well just asking

But thats the argument Goanna,the coach is condemned because fans dont like him,the players are condemned because the fans dont like them...
if the people who think they know better than the coach...they should put their hand up and go and see Pascoe and tell him to get rid of everybody and let them take over...its great to have an opinion on a particular subject such as team selection and coaching,but at least have the same credentials as the coach before condemning him for trying to sort a club with a terrible history of rotten culture out and build a winning platform for the future...

 

[TigerBlood93]

Biggest worry about the coach is if he’s coaching the xfactor out of players! We are way too structured for the way the game is played now

 

[Telltails]

We can't attract quality players not because of Maguire but because of the quality or lack their of - of the current squad. Maguire has not one representative level player in his team - and group of young players adapting to FG and our position reflects that.
We have to build a quality squad and that was always going to take time especially after Cleary destroyed our cap by spending it on washed up players. Still can't believe people lament him leaving considering the diabolical mess he left.
Maguire may not last but we will still have to take the path that the club is taking because it won't change the perception of the club that players/managers currently have and that appears as the last resort.
A new coach will face exactly the same challenges but hopefully will at least have the benefit of the foundations that are being built under Maguire instead of the mess that he inherited.

 

[twentyforty]

I don't want to put this in the Madge thread as it involves "us" equally.

But all this "it is the Tigers / it is the players " has been a bit too much this week.

Two simple facts:

1. **In Maguire’s last 51 games in charge of a star-studded Rabbitohs side, his success rate was even worse (18 wins) than it is now at the Wests Tigers.**

Everyone needs to read that...and read it slowly...with a vet roster, tons of Origin players, his record was 18 from 51 **last two years at Souths, not us, SOUTHS** So, you can't blame "wests culture".

2. 90% of this roster is from his time with us. So, you can't just blame Tiger's players / our history.

Combined with **Souths and us**, his winning record is about mid 30s.

Those are all facts. I am not even giving an opinion here, it just facts that his record with Souths and us his past five seasons has been very poor. Not one or two seasons, five...

The game has changed a hell of a lot since 2014...and using his past 'five' years is a fair period of time to judge someone. The facts are not really debatable at **two** clubs.

People need to lay off the whole "it is the Tigers" stuff.

We all know numbers don’t tell the whole story.
Souths were a bottom 8 side when Madge signed on. He took them to a top 4 side then in 2014 they finished 2nd and won the GF. That is a fact that also cannot be overlooked.
I agree, the facts are not debatable but the inconvenient facts also need to be included in the equation. 😁
The culture of an organisation is usually set by its administrators, the people responsible for policy and procedure.
I think if you look closely at the reasons for Souths demise during those 50 games, you may find a trigger or turning point resulting in on field influences beyond the Coaches control? It may have been as simple as the relationship between Crowe and Keary? Or a couple of players. Who knows?
All I’m saying is , sure numbers are relevant facts, but the contributing factors or causes are more relevant.