hybrid_tiger
Well-known member
I wonder why Sheens never coached in the NRL again after we sacked him in 2012?
Wasn't as bad as it could have been...
- Thread starter Tiger_heart
- Start date
I wonder why Sheens never coached in the NRL again after we sacked him in 2012?
If we don’t improve over the next year, we have no hope of keeping him. It’ll just be Tedesco Mark II
Bigscreentv
Well-known member
He’s won 4 premierships before, the team was improving each week until the injuries, he had a proven track record with mentoring young players and coaches.
If you honestly believe that i feel sorry for you,he is proving to be as divisive and useless as he was when he was booted in 2012 just like many of us predicted.
426Tlgerland
Well-known member
They all saw what he was doing To the tigers and gave him a wide berth , nobody would have hired him if he come back last year to OZ looking for work only us , now look at the mess
earl
Well-known member
I just read the Chammas article and I'm not convinced at all. If it's true and player managers are contacting the club because they are concerned about the players it's a massive issue.
I honestly think Sheens and his coaching staff should probably go. They've been terrible and the noise doesn't sound good at all. I also think Pascoe needs to go because he is probably the guy advising the board on these decisions and he is getting them wrong. I mean it's a 5 year plan and it's a disaster 6 months at best into the plan.
I don't think I've ever said sack the coach or CEO or board or anything like that because I don't have any inside information but this reeks of incompetence.
I think Pascoe employing Fulton was probably a good decision but the problem is he doesn't seem to think about things not working out hence we have Sheens/Benji on long term contracts and hard to get rid of. I get why this happens because you put a plan together and try and cover the problem involved to give them some support but you also need to have an off ramp.
A previous post mentioned how Sheens was nowhere to be seen in 2023 while Kimmorley was throwing water out of the leaky lifeboat with a spoon. The team had no forwards and he did something about it. Probably one more high impact forward in 2024 and we're on our way in that space.
As for the backs, he's resigned to the same issue - there simply isn't anyone there. He's facing a board that want results faster (like all of us). He has clearly (and often) said he needs time and quality players (eg an experienced 7).
The board's impatience was clearly demonstrated with the signing of Fulton, while Sheens obviously thought he could do it himself (on his terms). But it's not 2003/04/05 anymore and the world has changed.
Tim's old and stubborn and wants it done his way. I can see why he feels he holds the cards in all of this, they called out to him in utter desperation and so he could dictate the terms and conditions. Everyone is under pressure and no one is making collective decisions that align the current functioning of the club and its long term vision for the future.
The problem I also see is that Sheens has accepted a role that he's only partially invested in - is he here to set up a club with a quality team for his young prodigy to take over? If so, Benji's like a spoilt rich kid who hasn't earned his credentials. Big fail to the board for this one.
Sheens is too old to manage all of the complexities of the role. In 2024 you need to be flexible, adaptive, and be able to manage people (many of whom you don't like, respect or value) to be a success.
When he was appointed Head of Football, he needed to be given a very clear role description with accountable KPI's. Instead, I'd say he was given carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. Another big fail for the board.
Our forward recruitment was strong but his coaching days are behind him. Things would have been so different with a couple of minor changes:
CEO: Richardson
Head of Football: Sheens
Head Coach: Payten
Defence Coach: Furner
Attacking Coach: whoever
Head of Pathways: Betsy
Flegg or NSW Cup Coach: Benji
As for the backs, he's resigned to the same issue - there simply isn't anyone there. He's facing a board that want results faster (like all of us). He has clearly (and often) said he needs time and quality players (eg an experienced 7).
The board's impatience was clearly demonstrated with the signing of Fulton, while Sheens obviously thought he could do it himself (on his terms). But it's not 2003/04/05 anymore and the world has changed.
Tim's old and stubborn and wants it done his way. I can see why he feels he holds the cards in all of this, they called out to him in utter desperation and so he could dictate the terms and conditions. Everyone is under pressure and no one is making collective decisions that align the current functioning of the club and its long term vision for the future.
The problem I also see is that Sheens has accepted a role that he's only partially invested in - is he here to set up a club with a quality team for his young prodigy to take over? If so, Benji's like a spoilt rich kid who hasn't earned his credentials. Big fail to the board for this one.
Sheens is too old to manage all of the complexities of the role. In 2024 you need to be flexible, adaptive, and be able to manage people (many of whom you don't like, respect or value) to be a success.
When he was appointed Head of Football, he needed to be given a very clear role description with accountable KPI's. Instead, I'd say he was given carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. Another big fail for the board.
Our forward recruitment was strong but his coaching days are behind him. Things would have been so different with a couple of minor changes:
CEO: Richardson
Head of Football: Sheens
Head Coach: Payten
Defence Coach: Furner
Attacking Coach: whoever
Head of Pathways: Betsy
Flegg or NSW Cup Coach: Benji
Bring back Benny Gardiner 🔥✨️
Bigscreentv
Well-known member
You don't need to feel sorry for me.
He was booted at a time when the club was a basket case, and funnily enough, nothing has changed.
We have a Chairman who's a successful businessman and has built a law firm - he wants to use the club as a way to promote his business. I'm sure he contributes money and does other things, but in my view the club has had no success under his watch and if he's signing off on plans (with the rest of the board), then it's time for him to go. He may have good intentions, but it's not working...
We have a CEO who's background is AFL and up until recently insisted on being involved in recruitment. Cameron Ciraldo said discussions fell over due to a lack of response from the Tigers management team. Not saying he was the right choice, but they couldn't even respond to emails?
Sheens understands that one of the major factors in successful sports team is continuity...belief and confidence also play a massive role. Think about some of the most successful teams in history...
- Melbourne & QLD - they had Cronk, Smith, Slater, Inglis...all playing together over a long period, building combinations etc
- Barcelona and Spain - Xavi, Iniesta, Pique etc
- The Wallabies in the late 90's early 2000's - most of the team played together at Brumbies and Reds
This is why Sheens was always positive in the media with Brooks and so determined to keep him. He knows we need a consistent foundation to build from, and he knows Brooks has had little to no positivity around him for the last 10 years.
Also, why is Scott Fulton all of a sudden the saviour? People keeps saying he has connections to the west...what that means is he's mates with one of the coaches at Westfields and they funnelled players out of there to Manly. It's not like he was down at local grounds picking diamonds out of the rough...and what success have they had? If manly lose DCE and Trbojevic they don't win many games. I also don't think that not getting along with Pascoe is a negative on Warren Mcdonnell. From my observations if you don't see eye to eye with Pascoe you're on the right track.
The only person at the club who has a proven track record of winning is Sheens. People need to stop thinking about the tinkering week to week and look longer term and how they are trying to build a culture of success for the future. We're in the unfortunate position of having a squad that lacks real depth and a few injuries can seriously derail progress, so unless we're lucky with injuries our performance will inconsistent.
Decisions like low-balling Brooks showed a complete lack of awareness of the situation i.e. Brooks had been treated poorly for a long time and there are no other halves on the market. Add to the fact that no one wants to go the the Tigers at the moment anyway. Why would anyone in their right mind do something to make him feel unwanted, especially when his form was turning?
We need to back him Sheens, Marshall and Farah and at least give him a couple of years to build what they want to build, not make decisions behind his back that put sticks on the spokes of his plan.
The problem Sheens he has nothing to prove, and if he keeps coming up against resistance/dealing with ridiculous management decisions he'll leave the Tigers in now better position than when he started. The management will then blame Sheens for the problems and not have enough insight that they're the actual problem...and the merry-go-round continues.
End rant. Appreciate your opinion, but I have to disagree. We're a shit show and it starts right at the top.
earl
Well-known member
Not really. He has had some great success but also plenty of failures.
This was stupid but how many fans wanted this to happen. Apparently the board were involved as well. I'd suggest whoever pushed this from the board needs to resign/be replaced because their role shouldn't be to act like stupid fans. The boards role is to ensure a professional approach is being utilized within the club and not make decisions like that. If true it's completely unprofessional.
Yes and no. If you have an incompetent board and CEO but you had a gun team surrounded by a professional coaching team you'd do fine.
The problem is Pascoe and the board have taken a long term approach within the footy operations team and sold this plan but it appears they have made the wrong plan. How do you get out of this situation ? Why did this happen in the first place ?
Making decisions like putting in place the coaching team and structure they did with Sheens and Benji is extremely easy. You can sell it and make out everything is now fixed. It's corporate BS 101 and I've seen it heaps of times. You can even state there will be hard times and we just need to work through it or whatever but it's all BS.
It's all a mirage until reality hits later on down the track. Then you get to see if the plan is a good one or a dud one. Atm it's looking like a dud plan and maybe they should all just fall on their sword.
The Tigers DNA comment is exactly the type of meaningless corporate dribble that sounds great in fantasy land but it absolutely meaningless in reality.
Bigscreentv
Well-known member
Very few coaches have had no failures, but I take your point.
A successful team with terrible management only covers the cracks for so long, as eventually management will have to manage retention etc which they'd screw up.
Yeah, the Tigers DNA thing is rubbish, but I just think that to get out of this mess we at least need to have everyone on the same page, which doesn't seem to be happening. I'm also not saying that the Sheens plan is the only way, but it's the plan we've chosen so we need to stick to it to give it any chance of success. Right now it seems that a little bit of stress comes when wins don't happen and management make knee-jerk decisions.
earl
Well-known member
The board and CEO really shouldn't be involved in retention and recruitment. I mean surely they should have a small team or working group or whatever to manage this stuff.
I'd say they should only stuff up by appointing the wrong people or not taking action when it is required or taking action when it isn't required. If they do these things they should be sacked or managed out or whatever has to happen. I realize that this is not possible with the governance structure in place but Wests Ashfield really should change who represents them at Wests Tigers board level because it's a disaster.
I've been stating this as well but the reality is we should have done this with Madge and Madge was never on the nose as much as Benji and Sheens are on the nose within 6 months of getting the job.
We need a structure and then we need to appoint the right people to the appropriate roles. I'm sure they've done this to degree but the structure appears to be wrong because the noise that is coming out of the club is pretty extreme.
Pascoe should go because he has been involved in too many poor decisions.
I'm starting to think an independent investigation is the right way to go but I've never seen these work. It just becomes a political power play.
One other point is that maybe Sheens is just past it. It's professional sport and we don't appear to be professional.
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Bigscreentv
Well-known member
Fair enough - maybe so.
I think an independent investigation would be the best option too, but chances are it would conclude that they need a clean slate management-wise, and maybe coach-wise too.
I just think that any coach would struggle with the current management + squad.
Bigscreentv
Well-known member
I have said from the begining that the problems start at the top and our entire board including the Chair and CEO are a major problem but that does not excuse Sheens from being a large part of the problem.They all should go or at least the ones who are responsible for the entire fiasco that our management is.
I believe Sheens is part of the problem and you don't, that is fine you are welcome to your beliefs.
Pascoes_barber
Well-known member
Unfortunately this sums up the player attitude too.
They hired Sheens so it's on them. Every move they have made is the opposite of successful.
4jtigers
Well-known member
Unfortunately I think you're right and it shouldn't be because they are getting paid - it's their livelihood, it's not just footy for them.
They all should have a clause in their contract - win or lose (but better if they win) - if they don't reach the KPIs set after the game then they don't get paid and/or may have their contracts terminated.
