Race based legislation giving two votes to some and only one to others. all based on skin colour.
No thanks.
Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here
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No thanks.
I’ll read this when it’s not Xmas Eve. A few disgruntled people doesn’t make a murder plot.
I get you’ve read a few books. I’ve completed a university level criminal investigation course where the Kennedy assassination was the core material. So I’ve studied the actual evidence in some detail and the Cert IV qualified investigator in me says Oswald did it. There’s evidence of him buying the murder weapon, evidence he was in the building where the shots were fired, the ballistics support a shot coming from an area he was known to be in, he’d tried to shoot people before, he shot a police officer afterwards etc. I’m sure a lot of people disliked JFK, that’s not evidence though.
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Magpie_Magic
Well-known member
Personally, I don't have a view either way but like most people suspicions remain.
Questions re everything in matters such as this involving high level figures and politics as well as geopolitical ramifications are;
1) Do the investigative bodies have access to all possible evidence?
2) Of that how much evidence has then been made public?
3) Are the motives congruent with the crime.
1) Yeah. Have you read the Warren Commission Report? It gets a lot of crap from people who’ve never bothered reading it, but that thing is huge. They covered a lot of stuff. House Committee did a lot as well even though they botched the acoustic evidence.
2) Most of it if not all of the pertinent evidence.
3) Assassins of public figures often have no motive apart from a need to be someone or a deep hatred often not grounded in fact. Even Sirhan Sirhan with his Palestinian gripe could have picked a better target. Mark Chapman, Hinkley, Guiteau - none of their actions are anywhere near congruent with their supposed wrongs done to them.
Has anyone visited the site with the cross in the middle of the road where he was shot, not much has changed around that area of the site as i guess a memorial $20 to visit the book repository in 2004 when i visited
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trentrunciman
Well-known member
be careful of saying you're wrong? I didnt say that haha rofl? I wrote a comment counter to your comment. I didn't agree with your comment what is there to be careful about? Sorry if i hurt your feelings.
Happy to upload evidence (attached) from different standpoints of the medical cover up to eye witness accounts or smoking gun documents to details to do with Oswald knowing ack .Rubeinstein; george de mohrenschildt et al, its all connected. Just a shame that the US did it which extinguished any hope of détente with the soviet bloc.
But ngl there really isn't any point me typing drawn out responses. It won't CMV or CYV. CBF tbh to type out an essay or detail the attached info either...it won't resolve anything...i generally try to avoid this thread. I'll leave it at that...GG
Attachments
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There’s scores of witnesses, people who actually went on record under oath who put Oswald in the building and firing the rifle. Of course he’s connected to G de M - that’s well established.
You’ve got one guy who says he was loading his camera at the time and another guy who says it was a blur. The WC and others have witnesses who saw Oswald taking the shot.
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I was facing in a northerly direction looking across not only at Elm Street but I could see the large red brick building across the street from where I was sitting. I take this building across the street to be about 7 stories anyway in the east end of the building and the second row of windows from the top I saw a man in this window. I had seen him before the President’s car arrived. He was just sitting up there looking down apparently waiting for the same thing I was to see the President. I did not notice anything unusual about this man. He was a white man in his early 30’s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weight about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definitely not a suit. I proceeded to watch the President’s car as it turned left at the corner where I was and about 50 yards from the intersection of Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the President’s back was in line with the last window I have previously described I heard what I thought was a backfire. It run in my mind that it might be someone throwing firecrackers out the window of the red brick building and I looked up at the building. I then saw this man I have described in the window and he was taking aim with a high powered rifle. I could see all of the barrel of the gun. I do not know if it had a scope on it or not. I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry. I could see this man from about his belt up. There was nothing unusual about him at all in appearance. I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again.
WARREN COMMISSION: March 25, 1964.
3H246
Mr. BELIN. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.
FBI Report
Brehm said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. ... He also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.
Earle Brown statement
I heard the shots and they seemed like they were coming high from the direction of the Book Depository building. There was a terrific echo.
Earle Cabrel
There was no question in my mind as to their being from a high powered rifle and coming from the direction of the building known as the school book depository.
Governor Connally
I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very very good and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book depository, no question about it. i heard no other. the first and third shots came from there.
3H246
Mr. BELIN. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.
FBI Report
Brehm said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. ... He also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.
Earle Brown statement
I heard the shots and they seemed like they were coming high from the direction of the Book Depository building. There was a terrific echo.
Earle Cabrel
There was no question in my mind as to their being from a high powered rifle and coming from the direction of the building known as the school book depository.
Governor Connally
I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very very good and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book depository, no question about it. i heard no other. the first and third shots came from there.
crazycat
Well-known member
Yossarian, see your logic.
LHO killed Kennedy, ok agreed. Unsure if he was only shooter, but that is definitely possible and he had a stack of reasons... The point from the Intercept is that LHO seemed to travel from America -> Russia and back at a time where tension made that very difficult. The possibility of LHO being in the CIA LSD program increases the likelihood that LHO was a CIA agent and acting under instructions to kill Kennedy.
Jack Ruby killed LHO because???
Because?
Ruby was a bit nuts. Not that nuts.
Ruby was looking after several women of the night. He would bring them stuff and they depended on him.
My belief is Ruby was compromised and blackmailed to Kill LHO. Alternatively hypnotism kinda fits, "you will shoot LHO".
Maybe it was crap security at a texas police station. It's possible, just too damn convenient honestly. CIA arranges for Oswald to take shot at Kennedy, maybe second shooter/maybe not. Oswald is then arranged to be killed. Fits the most out of the available facts.
It's possible but there's no real evidence to say he was a CIA anything. It's a long sell for a weird pay-off. Your conclusion is a maybe build on a possible. Oswald's Russian journey is well documented. Difficult but by no means impossible. He was a misfit struggling for an answer. He got shoved off to Minsk in a nothing job, got the shits and went home where he was thoroughly interrogated. As a US born former citizen they had no real means to stop him.
But for a CIA operative they couldn't even get him a permanent home in Dallas - they have him boarding with some old duck.
You hit the nail on the head. Terrible security. The cops knew Ruby but really it was an open show down there. It was supposed to be a 30 second move and they didn't expect dramas.
I suppose you have to decide what's more likely and logical. That he was a small time night club owner nobody who wanted to be a hero by being Jackie Kennedy's knight in shining armour or a drug induced CIA agent being expected to perform a dangerous act on cue. I think the reality is he saw the chance to play the hero and he took it.
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crazycat
Well-known member
10,000% agreed with you Trentrunciman there. Yoss I think you are backing the wrong horse thinking LHO was just seeking fame.
The Viet war, the conflicts around segregation (not a LHO motive), the tensions in Cuba (Castro wanted Kennedy dead), CIA being angry with Kennedy and happy to kill world leaders, etc.
Ofcourse there is an element in favour of Yoss's idea that it was an assassination to grab media attention. LHO did try to assassinate another High profile far right politician in Texas.
LHO was a registered communist. He spent years building a communist branch in a city where he is the ONLY member. This honestly sounds like he is building cover as an Agent or a double agent.
Yes, I truly don't believe this reasoning. Not so soon after JFK's death, no way.
I believe Jack was leveraged to kill LHO.
Hypnotised, maybe/maybe not.
Blackmailed as a Homosexual (no issue now, major issue in the 1960's).
Blackmailed by the mob.
Blackmailed against one of the women he was protecting.
Ruby was quite friendly with the police station however.
Your theory is certainly more interesting and entertaining. A part of me wishes it was true because it’s a better story than a nutter with inexplicable grudges and hangups.
I’ll just make a few observations. The CIA would not collectively decide to murder their president. It just wouldn’t happen. You need to imagine the collective buy-in from a huge lot of people without one of them cracking or blowing the whistle. It’s not plausible.
Oswald would make a terrible operative for anyone. He was mentally unstable, unreliable and unpredictable. Even the Soviets didn’t want a bar of him. I’m not sure what you mean by registered communist. I mean he probably was one but “registered”? I sincerely doubt he was the only communist in New Orléans.
Ruby blackmailed? By the mob? Nonsense. The Mob could get people to do it because they told them. In this case it’s not realistic they’d want to get involved. But did the Mob do it or the CIA.
Again it’s interesting and entertaining stuff but the evidence doesn’t support any of it. Why would Oswald have to mail order a rifle under an alias? A slightly bodgy one at that? Couldn’t the CIA give him one?
crazycat
Well-known member
Oswald maintained contact with the Communist party of America and was trying to start a branch of 1. Infact looking this is one point the Warren commission got wrong:
Chapter 7
Chapter 7: Lee Harvey Oswald: Background and Possible Motives Introduction The Early Years New York City Return to New Orleans and Joining the Marine Corps Interest in Marxism Defection to the Soviet Union Return to United States Personal Relations Employment Attack on General Walker Political...
www.archives.gov
"But Marxist politics are still his ruling passion and his hero is Fidel Castro. He writes to the leading pro-Castro group in the U.S., the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), offering to start a New Orleans chapter. The committee discourages him, but he ignores them and begins printing his own pro-Castro leaflets and phony membership cards. He asks Marina to help him disguise the fact that he is the only member of his organization."
Basically he is a party member of 1. There may have been other 'communists' but they choose to not make contact with him OR did not know him. The FPCC recommended to him that he move states to be with another group with members.
"Blackmailed? By the mob?" Why the mob never blackmails people *facepalm*
Jack Ruby was extremely prone to be blackmailed. He was 'caring' for several ladies of the night and any kind of secret or scandal could have been used as leverage against him:
Homosexuality? (true or concocted).
Pedophilia (true or concocted).
Even just 'those 5 women you are caring for we will make disappear unless you confess to the crime'.
People have confessed to murder due to blackmail before. Ruby's poor excuse
Fair point Oswald was unstable. His wife said his entire mode changed when he came back to the USA... Could he have been told he will assassinate someone?
A mail order rifle under an Alias supports or confirms nothing. Looks far better for the CIA to say "we know Oswald got this gun under an alias of XXX". Likewise maybe the CIA did give Oswald that alias to use for tracking purposes, or the Russians, or the Pro cuban groups??
This is what Jim Garrison, district attorney has said:
"David Ferrie's apartment where Shaw, Oswald and Ferrie plotted the assassination"
JFK Lancer
web.archive.org
What was David Ferrie's involvement?
Why are so many people killed in relation to the Kennedy assassination?
Naturally we do not know. It could be a lone gunman and a botched investigation + coverup. OR a deliberate planned assassination and we DO NOT KNOW.
Obama, Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and Biden have all blocked the release of the remaining JFK documents 60 years after the assassination. This is an utter joke and we should have all evidence released to the public now. (if no conspiracy, why on earth would it be hidden?)
Tiger Tarl
Well-known member
Just thought I'd throw this into the conversation.
www.booktopia.com.au
JFK
Booktopia has JFK, The Smoking Gun by Colin McLaren. Buy a discounted Paperback of JFK online from Australia's leading online bookstore.
www.booktopia.com.au
trentrunciman
Well-known member
Always wondered who the umbrella man and the Cuban were signalling for. The shooter from the depository ?
I recall something I read a while ago said he was pumping that umbrella up and down as fast as me trying to place a bet on race 5 at Dapto before jump. I know the umbrella man said he was “protesting” but bit odd.
anyway merry christmas everyone ! 🎅
crazycat
Well-known member
If you want a summary of the theory pushed by this book:Just thought I'd throw this into the conversation.
JFK
Booktopia has JFK, The Smoking Gun by Colin McLaren. Buy a discounted Paperback of JFK online from Australia's leading online bookstore.
Mortal Error - Wikipedia
That the car behind Kennedy had a Agent George hickey.
Hickey pulls his AR-15 and begins firing at where he thinks the shots are coming from.
The cars speed up, Hickey is already unstable falling backwards, the third bullet to hit Kennedy comes from Hickey.
??
It's a theory...? I don't particularly buy it, but hey remotely possible. The theory then pushes that Hickey shot JFK by accident, I am 50/50 on that one.... and about 15% on the theory..
(surely someone in the crowd would have noticed mussle fire coming from Hickey or something??, though people duck when they hear gun shots).
crazycat
Well-known member
Meh computer fail. I quoted your top post without actually saying anything.
Going to be a little pedantic and respond. ... Just to clarify, I don't know what happened with JFK, every post/theory here could "possibly" be true from loan nutter fires 3 shots (ballistics has tested this and it is possible), to a small group engages LHO to shoot Kennedy to a larger CIA or KGB conspiracy was afoot. Were only dealing in degrees of likelihood, i.e. Will we see David Klemmer and Paps tackle hard for the Tigers, likely... will we see Nofa defend our line better then these two, unlikely based of past performance (Nofa, prove me wrong Buddy!) .
Yes a conspiracy theory is more "exciting", in JFK's case I also believe it more likely.
"The CIA would not collectively decide to murder their president." Have you read Brig General Smedley Butler's business plot? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler#Business_Plot
I give this weight as, Smedley is actually testifying that this was told to him. (it isn't second or third hand). Butler is a General. I believe some in the USA would actually do this and 2022 doesn't contradict that.
We know the USA has been active in subverting elections overseas (as has Russia, Britain, etc. France as a colonial power was ruthless)... With Britain those lessons returned home, why not America?
1960's America is a different period of time, it's "Red's under beds"? Half of Hollywood was locked up by Joe McCarthy in his Terrorist style witch hunts... Hoover is vicious in arresting people and a lot of people thought Kennedy wasn't Anti-Communist enough!?
It doesn't have to be the entire CIA, someone like Guy Banister would have found a few loyal anti-communists to conduct the hit.
You are right, people would have to keep their lips sealed. A lot of people however have died in relation to Kennedy's assassination, was that to seal their lips??
We don't know and we won't know.
Tim Sheens
Well-known member
Not going to get involved in theories on the who on how a president was killed a lifetime ago, though will say that it is still better content than the constant lefty this, lefty that stuff which had relentlessly permeated these pages in recent times.
Thank you to all that did not join in, celebrate or encourage such.
Thank you to all that did not join in, celebrate or encourage such.
Oswald maintained contact with the Communist party of America and was trying to start a branch of 1. Infact looking this is one point the Warren commission got wrong:
"Oswald apparently started reading about communism when he was about 15. In the Marines, he evidenced a strong conviction as to the correctness of Marxist doctrine, which one associate described as "irrevocable," but also as "theoretical"; that associate did not think that Oswald was a Communist.9 Oswald did not always distinguish between Marxism and communism. 10 He stated several times that he was a Communist but apparently never joined any Communist Party.11"Chapter 7
Chapter 7: Lee Harvey Oswald: Background and Possible Motives Introduction The Early Years New York City Return to New Orleans and Joining the Marine Corps Interest in Marxism Defection to the Soviet Union Return to United States Personal Relations Employment Attack on General Walker Political...
"But Marxist politics are still his ruling passion and his hero is Fidel Castro. He writes to the leading pro-Castro group in the U.S., the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), offering to start a New Orleans chapter. The committee discourages him, but he ignores them and begins printing his own pro-Castro leaflets and phony membership cards. He asks Marina to help him disguise the fact that he is the only member of his organization."
Basically he is a party member of 1. There may have been other 'communists' but they choose to not make contact with him OR did not know him. The FPCC recommended to him that he move states to be with another group with members.
"Blackmailed? By the mob?" Why the mob never blackmails people *facepalm*
Jack Ruby was extremely prone to be blackmailed. He was 'caring' for several ladies of the night and any kind of secret or scandal could have been used as leverage against him:
Homosexuality? (true or concocted).
Pedophilia (true or concocted).
Even just 'those 5 women you are caring for we will make disappear unless you confess to the crime'.
People have confessed to murder due to blackmail before. Ruby's poor excuse
Fair point Oswald was unstable. His wife said his entire mode changed when he came back to the USA... Could he have been told he will assassinate someone?
A mail order rifle under an Alias supports or confirms nothing. Looks far better for the CIA to say "we know Oswald got this gun under an alias of XXX". Likewise maybe the CIA did give Oswald that alias to use for tracking purposes, or the Russians, or the Pro cuban groups??
This is what Jim Garrison, district attorney has said:
"David Ferrie's apartment where Shaw, Oswald and Ferrie plotted the assassination"
^note only text, no adult content except a boring retelling of a script.JFK Lancer
web.archive.org
What was David Ferrie's involvement?
Why are so many people killed in relation to the Kennedy assassination?
Naturally we do not know. It could be a lone gunman and a botched investigation + coverup. OR a deliberate planned assassination and we DO NOT KNOW.
Obama, Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and Biden have all blocked the release of the remaining JFK documents 60 years after the assassination. This is an utter joke and we should have all evidence released to the public now. (if no conspiracy, why on earth would it be hidden?)
There's a lot to take in! Obviously the FPCC is not the same thing as the ACP. Interestingly enough Oswald tried to get a lawyer with ACP connections to represent him.
Jim Garrison himself is a little wonky. The stuff in the JFK film is largely fictitious or exaggerated.
But why would the Mob give a crap to blackmail Ruby into doing that? You’re missing my point. I’m saying why would the mob do that when they’ve got any number of actual mob members who would do that? And again why would they bother killing Oswald?
I think you’re looking to bend the evidence to suit a narrative. An interesting narrative but not supported by evidence. It makes no sense to have him make a ham fisted effort to buy a rifle under a false name. Presumably he could buy one himself right? The Ruby stuff sounds interesting but where’s the corroborating evidence?
Yeah that Smedley stuff is pretty wild!
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