Referendum 2023

[twentyforty]

It's not the same as ATSIC, which was funded to enact their ideas, not just recommend them.

My problem is that it's pointless. All the govt need to do is fund an advisory group. The committee could do everything that Voice advocates claim the Voice will do.

The only difference is that a future Coalition govt might prefer a different approach and could disband the committee. So this referendum is about Labor controlling the future actions of the Liberal Party - and Albo wondered why he couldn't get bipartisan support. For that reason alone, the Voice was already dead at birth,

Create a committee and make sure that the funding goes into helping struggling remote communities and not the city elites. And not just carelessly throw the money at those communities. That's where good advice would be helpful - how to fund assistance programs that actually do something useful, rather than flushing dollars down the toilet.

Given that billions have been spent each year on Aboriginal affairs, and advocates claim that nothing has changed, then there should be an inquiry into the waste of massive amounts of public funds. Then again, Yes advocates could be playing games. I expect there have been success stories in some communities that are not being told so that that invaluable victim status can keep the bucks rolling in.

Who is getting all those billions spent on Aboriginal affairs for decades??

Yes, Canberra doesn’t have the political will to solve the real issues, like child abuse, murders, arranged marriages of 14yo girls to older men, for fear of making the situation worse or interfering with culture.
There have been Aboriginal women gaoled for their own protection simply because they’ve run out of places to hide.
Who is getting the billions? Its certainly not billions by the time it filters to those who really need it.
Dont know why we can’t recognise the success of the NIAA? The met 4 of 17 “close the gap“ KPIs. Gosh it’s only been operating since 2019. Why not improve on it rather than head off in a different direction for political expedience?

 

[Mistymuzzle]

An Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory tried getting the local Bottle'o shut down for 6 hours a day.
Meaning it was a 24 hour Bottle'o. The community wanted it shut down for 6 hours. 2am till 8am.

This was denied by the NT government.

^That is why we need the Voice.

How would a federal Voice, enshrined the the Commonwealth Constitution, advising the Federal Government, impact State Laws?

 

[stephen]

How will it change?

 

[Tiger-ferret]

An Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory tried getting the local Bottle'o shut down for 6 hours a day.
Meaning it was a 24 hour Bottle'o. The community wanted it shut down for 6 hours. 2am till 8am.

This was denied by the NT government.

^That is why we need the Voice.

But according to the yes campaign this is only an advisory group and the government is under no obligation to take up any advice.
So which is it? Does the voice have power or not?

We all know alcohol should be limited I certain areas.

 

[twentyforty]

How would a federal Voice, enshrined the the Commonwealth Constitution, advising the Federal Government, impact State Laws?

It’s not a state, but you’re spot on.

 

[crazycat]

The yes team think the answer is to keep on making the same mistakes.
The Yes team voted overwhelmingly to scrap ATSIC, Now they want us to vote for the same thing but on steroids, one that can’t be closed down.
An ATSIC by any other name…
I haven’t heard anyone in the yes team describe the real problem. They constantly talk about symptoms and that may be why they’re void of solutions.
I mean apart from the voice, which is basically a power/money grab for the city dwelling Aboriginals. Those living remotely are keeping the cultural fire burning which will ensure the voice‘s longevity. They will get paid for the photo shoots the same as the smoking ceremonies and welcome to country dancers, but it will be the city folks and the 55% of Aboriginals who have European, Chinese, American etc blood coursing through their veins who will benefit.

Sorry that is total BS. John Howard Scrapped "ATSIC" it was never put to a vote.

That is exactly why we need "the voice"
Atsic scrapped, by John Howard.
Replacement of Atsic scrapped. (I think by Kevin Rudd, maybe John Howard.)
Replacement of that body scrapped. Tony Abbott introduces new body.
New Aboriginal body Scrapped by Malcolm Turnbull.

Aboriginal people deserve to elect their own representatives who speak for them. At the moment Lidia Thorpe, ms Price, Warren Mundine, etc just get appointed to speak for bush Aborigines without any say or accountablity to the aboriginal people. All of those people above are accountable to the various parties (bar Lidia who is an independent).

 

[crazycat]

How would a federal Voice, enshrined the the Commonwealth Constitution, advising the Federal Government, impact State Laws?

The NT is goverened Federally as a Territory.
The ACT and NT regularly get over-ruled by Canberra. They are not "states"

 

[Mistymuzzle]

The NT is goverened Federally as a Territory.
The ACT and NT regularly get over-ruled by Canberra. They are not "states"

They may not be "states" but they are not children. The NT is not "governed federally, they have their own territory government and make their own laws. Alcohol is covered by the Northern Territory Liquor Act 2019.

 

[twentyforty]

Sorry that is total BS. John Howard Scrapped "ATSIC" it was never put to a vote.

That is exactly why we need "the voice"
Atsic scrapped, by John Howard.
Replacement of Atsic scrapped. (I think by Kevin Rudd, maybe John Howard.)
Replacement of that body scrapped. Tony Abbott introduces new body.
New Aboriginal body Scrapped by Malcolm Turnbull.

Aboriginal people deserve to elect their own representatives who speak for them. At the moment Lidia Thorpe, ms Price, Warren Mundine, etc just get appointed to speak for bush Aborigines without any say or accountablity to the aboriginal people. All of those people above are accountable to the various parties (bar Lidia who is an independent).

You very conveniently didn’t mention the NIAA, an agency of 1300 including around 300 Aboriginals. An improved service model which formulates and monitors policies. The NIAA started improving the lives of Aboriginals in 2019. It reports directly to the PM & Cabinet.
If by some miracle the voice gets up and running would it offer this valuable advice to this agency? When asked of voice campaigners how they would interact with the agency they had no idea, so we can assume that they may not?

 

[crazycat]

Let's vote for a 'MAY'

Just straight up admitting you have no idea what you are actually voting for. Scary, yet it's fascinating to see in current time how people were propagandised so easily into burning books in 1930s Germany.

I am not here to BS people. Unlike any of the Fox/Terrorgraph/Sky news silly media that lies, I won't do that. (hey the Colour Purple is banned in America by the Rabid right!)

A yes vote MAY improve the lives of Aboriginal people.
It will give them a "voice" to speak their concerns to the Government.

THAT IS ALL.

Yes, your parliamentarians may ignore them yet again! Every year there is another Black Deaths in Custody report and every year for 33 years those reports get ignored. https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-coll...ns/royal-commission-aboriginal-deaths-custody


What a "yes" means:
Aboriginal people will choose who represents them as a community by voting (not by party hacks or whoever has the ear of a politician today).
They will be able to be in Canberra and get their message heard on Committee's that make decisions that effect their lives.
Politicians making decisions on Aboriginal lives will hear from Aboriginal representatives elected by their communities.

That "May" improve their conditions. Or Politicians may ignore them again. What a Yes vote guarantees is that their representatives will be heard.

That's all.

Not going to lie, or simplify a complex issue. The voice means Canberra will get better advice and hear from genuine representatives of the Aboriginal community. It's a good step in the right direction, more steps are needed.

 

[twentyforty]

Sorry that is total BS. John Howard Scrapped "ATSIC" it was never put to a vote.

That is exactly why we need "the voice"
Atsic scrapped, by John Howard.
Replacement of Atsic scrapped. (I think by Kevin Rudd, maybe John Howard.)
Replacement of that body scrapped. Tony Abbott introduces new body.
New Aboriginal body Scrapped by Malcolm Turnbull.

Aboriginal people deserve to elect their own representatives who speak for them. At the moment Lidia Thorpe, ms Price, Warren Mundine, etc just get appointed to speak for bush Aborigines without any say or accountablity to the aboriginal people. All of those people above are accountable to the various parties (bar Lidia who is an independent).

Hansard…
Executive summary

On 15 April 2004, the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, and the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, Senator Amanda Vanstone, announced the government’s intention to abolish the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC). This followed the Australian Labor Party’s announcement a few weeks earlier that it would do likewise if elected to government later this year. Consequently, what was seen as a bold experiment in the administration of Indigenous affairs when ATSIC was established in 1989 seems certain to be drawing to a close.

The imminent abolition of ATSIC raises many issues about the future of policy-making and service delivery in Indigenous affairs. To put these issues into context, this Current Issues Brief provides a brief history of the administration of Indigenous affairs prior to ATSIC’s establishment in 1989; it discusses how ATSIC worked, in particular its roles and functions, structure and governance, and funding arrangements; and it outlines the government’s plans for Indigenous affairs policy-making and service delivery post-ATSIC. It also canvasses a range of broader issues which the abolition of ATSIC raises, such as those surrounding the shift towards ‘mainstreamed’ service delivery, issues to do with federalism, and questions about ‘self-determination’ and the place of elected Indigenous representative bodies in the Australian political system.

 

[crazycat]

You very conveniently didn’t mention the NIAA, an agency of 1300 including around 300 Aboriginals. An improved service model which formulates and monitors policies. The NIAA started improving the lives of Aboriginals in 2019. It reports directly to the PM & Cabinet.
If by some miracle the voice gets up and running would it offer this valuable advice to this agency? When asked of voice campaigners how they would interact with the agency they had no idea, so we can assume that they may not?

So an agency of "1000" non Aboriginals and "300" Aboriginals that can speak too:
The Prime minister.
The minister of Indigenous affairs.

That's not represenatative. That just means there are "300" random Aboriginals around.
Someone says what the Government doesn't like, FIRED!
Someone speaks a hard truth in Canberra, FIRED!

When you get people in Canberra, on good 6 figure salaries. They say exactly what the government want to hear, to keep those 6 figure salaries.

The Voice is about getting those hard truths spoken in Canberra.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

It’s not a state, but you’re spot on.

and of course there are not problems with indigenous people and alcohol in QLD, NSW or WA so thats a good thing ;-)

 

[crazycat]

Hansard…
Executive summary

On 15 April 2004, the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, and the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, Senator Amanda Vanstone, announced the government’s intention to abolish the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC). This followed the Australian Labor Party’s announcement a few weeks earlier that it would do likewise if elected to government later this year. Consequently, what was seen as a bold experiment in the administration of Indigenous affairs when ATSIC was established in 1989 seems certain to be drawing to a close.

The imminent abolition of ATSIC raises many issues about the future of policy-making and service delivery in Indigenous affairs. To put these issues into context, this Current Issues Brief provides a brief history of the administration of Indigenous affairs prior to ATSIC’s establishment in 1989; it discusses how ATSIC worked, in particular its roles and functions, structure and governance, and funding arrangements; and it outlines the government’s plans for Indigenous affairs policy-making and service delivery post-ATSIC. It also canvasses a range of broader issues which the abolition of ATSIC raises, such as those surrounding the shift towards ‘mainstreamed’ service delivery, issues to do with federalism, and questions about ‘self-determination’ and the place of elected Indigenous representative bodies in the Australian political system.

You said the "yes" team voted to scrap ATSIC.
Labor and Liberal do a crap job and yes Labor and Liberal can own a failure here. Warren Mundine would be ALP leader next year and he is solidly in the "no" team.

The "yes" team consists of a stack of people in neither party. The Greens and The Australian Democrats Opposed the Abolition of ATSIC. Aden Ridgeway, an Aboriginal Senator for the Australian Democrats spoke heavily against it.

https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/greenmag17.pdf

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentar...Committees/indigenousaffairs/report/final/d01 (trying to find the document on Aden Ridgeway... He was heavily against the Abolition of ATSIC).

Canberra will not listen. It will "appoint" people who agree with people in Canberra.

Your case proves why we need a body elected from the Aboriginal people who are answerable to Aboriginals. Not the ALP, not the Liberals.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I am not here to BS people. Unlike any of the Fox/Terrorgraph/Sky news silly media that lies, I won't do that. (hey the Colour Purple is banned in America by the Rabid right!)

A yes vote MAY improve the lives of Aboriginal people.
It will give them a "voice" to speak their concerns to the Government.

THAT IS ALL.

Simply not true. By being included in the Constitution, the Voice would have access to the High Court to appeal any legislation passed in which it didnt believe it was correctly consulted. Simple fact

Yes, your parliamentarians may ignore them yet again! Every year there is another Black Deaths in Custody report and every year for 33 years those reports get ignored. https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-coll...ns/royal-commission-aboriginal-deaths-custody

Indigenous prisoners die at a disproportionally low rate in custody compared to non indigenous so something must be working. Doesnt suggest to me that its being ignored.

Deaths in custody in Australia

www.aic.gov.au

Prisoners in Australia, 2022

Contains annual national information on prisoners in custody at 30 June, including demographic information, imprisonment rates, most serious offence.

www.abs.gov.au

https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-coll...ns/royal-commission-aboriginal-deaths-custody

 

[crazycat]

and of course there are not problems with indigenous people and alcohol in QLD, NSW or WA so thats a good thing ;-)

Yes there are and that's exactly what were talking about.

The problem in the NT was that a "Bottle'o" was allowed to be open 24/7. People would be drunk for days on end.

In NSW* a pub must close for 6 hours. I was working at a bar which got fined 5 million for not fixing it's license and having it's close period on it's license from 4am-10am instead of 6am-noon. The Pubs and Bottle'o close to stop multi day Benders.

The Aboriginal community took a vote and wanted the bottle'o to close during the night. The Ambulance workers wanted the pub to close. Everyone wanted the pub to close bar the Publican who brought off the Territory MP's.

The voice is about taking real stories from the bush and ensuring that they get heard in Canberra. One massive step in the right direction.

*NFI for the other states, except WA where the pubs were shut on Sundays and after 10pm. I highly recommend Joe Hildebrand "$h!ttesville express" (forum moderators, that is what the series is called). Which takes 2 lefties and 2 righties through wedge issues including Alcahol addiction.

 

[twentyforty]

You said the "yes" team voted to scrap ATSIC.
Labor and Liberal do a crap job and yes Labor and Liberal can own a failure here. Warren Mundine would be ALP leader next year and he is solidly in the "no" team.

The "yes" team consists of a stack of people in neither party. The Greens and The Australian Democrats Opposed the Abolition of ATSIC. Aden Ridgeway, an Aboriginal Senator for the Australian Democrats spoke heavily against it.

https://greens.org.au/sites/greens.org.au/files/greenmag17.pdf

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentar...Committees/indigenousaffairs/report/final/d01 (trying to find the document on Aden Ridgeway... He was heavily against the Abolition of ATSIC).

Canberra will not listen. It will "appoint" people who agree with people in Canberra.

Your case proves why we need a body elected from the Aboriginal people who are answerable to Aboriginals. Not the ALP, not the Liberals.

I don’t really know what the 300 Aboriginals do in the NIAA, but because they are over represented I suspect a lot more than you suggest. They’re not there to do the filing.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Yes there are and that's exactly what were talking about.

The problem in the NT was that a "Bottle'o" was allowed to be open 24/7. People would be drunk for days on end.

In NSW* a pub must close for 6 hours. I was working at a bar which got fined 5 million for not fixing it's license and having it's close period on it's license from 4am-10am instead of 6am-noon. The Pubs and Bottle'o close to stop multi day Benders.

Yep, under NSW laws. Its a democracy. Do you actually understand what you are suggesting? Forget that we are talking about first nation people, you are suggesting that a small section of the population get to have a say to get the federal government to impose laws on a whole territorys population based on what that small percentage want or need. Personally I think those liquor laws are insane, but its a democracy and anyone can run on that basis, make it an issue and vote accordingly.

The Aboriginal community took a vote and wanted the bottle'o to close during the night. The Ambulance workers wanted the pub to close. Everyone wanted the pub to close bar the Publican who brought off the Territory MP's.

You obviously have proof of that corruption? Again, its a democracy. If its known who are corrupt, vote them out. Again, let me get this straight, your answer to corruption, in a democracy is to give a small percentage of the population a say in what laws are passed?

The voice is about taking real stories from the bush and ensuring that they get heard in Canberra. One massive step in the right direction.

For Federal laws and issues, potentially. I think its important that people actually know what the Voice is and vote accordingly and the Voice will not be addressing state or territory laws.

*NFI for the other states, except WA where the pubs were shut on Sundays and after 10pm. I highly recommend Joe Hildebrand "$h!ttesville express" (forum moderators, that is what the series is called). Which takes 2 lefties and 2 righties through wedge issues including Alcahol addiction.

Important issues, totally irrelevant to the Voice referendum. its important that people know this.

 

[stephen]

Yes there are and that's exactly what were talking about.

The problem in the NT was that a "Bottle'o" was allowed to be open 24/7. People would be drunk for days on end.

In NSW* a pub must close for 6 hours. I was working at a bar which got fined 5 million for not fixing it's license and having it's close period on it's license from 4am-10am instead of 6am-noon. The Pubs and Bottle'o close to stop multi day Benders.

The Aboriginal community took a vote and wanted the bottle'o to close during the night. The Ambulance workers wanted the pub to close. Everyone wanted the pub to close bar the Publican who brought off the Territory MP's.

The voice is about taking real stories from the bush and ensuring that they get heard in Canberra. One massive step in the right direction.

*NFI for the other states, except WA where the pubs were shut on Sundays and after 10pm. I highly recommend Joe Hildebrand "$h!ttesville express" (forum moderators, that is what the series is called). Which takes 2 lefties and 2 righties through wedge issues including Alcahol addiction.

Were the local indigenous people forced to purchase & consume alcohol?

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Were the local indigenous people forced to purchase & consume alcohol?

Who knows? There is no way of knowing...at all, unless we enshrine in the Constitution, for all time, with High Court access a constitutional body that disproportionately represents 4% of the population. Only they can tell us, otherwise the problems facing indigenous people are a mystery wrapped in an enigma.