2023 Israel–Hamas war

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Siberian Kitten said:
Most believers don't want to see fault in their religion, even when they are tainted by molesters. Abrahamic religions call themselves "the religion of peace", but they are maybe the least peaceful of all.

In the end, the problem is eight billion humans. People are always getting in each others' way, on personal, regional and national levels. More competition. More being thwarted. More resentments. Fewer animals and plants.

All around the world, people want someone to blame. All they need do is look in the mirror and multiply by eight billion.

It's not anyone's fault, it's the planet's fault 🙂 We pretend to be in charge but we have been controlled by our environments every step of the way, and then act like it's a free decision. We can't even coordinate within nations let alone between them.

So now people will be forced to choose between security and freedom. It's as if the whole world was turning into the Wests Tigers.
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Interesting perspective.
 
GNR4LIFE said:
I remember Russel Brand said once (before he went off the deep end), combating violence with violence is just planting seeds of more violence. You might kill a whole lot of people, but you’re breeding hate into the survivors who will retaliate the same way. It’s a vicious cycle. It might be the most hippie thing I ever say, but the only thing that defeats hate is love.
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Can’t see that ever happening over there…I heard someone say recently that If Hamas destroyed all their weapons, it is likely hostilities will minimise.
If Israel destroyed all their weapons, it is likely Israel will be wiped out.
We will never know, but I suspect - as hypothetical and grandiose as this is - that it is close to the truth.
 
Siberian Kitten said:
Most believers don't want to see fault in their religion, even when they are tainted by molesters. Abrahamic religions call themselves "the religion of peace", but they are maybe the least peaceful of all.

In the end, the problem is eight billion humans. People are always getting in each others' way, on personal, regional and national levels. More competition. More being thwarted. More resentments. Fewer animals and plants.

All around the world, people want someone to blame. All they need do is look in the mirror and multiply by eight billion.

It's not anyone's fault, it's the planet's fault 🙂 We pretend to be in charge but we have been controlled by our environments every step of the way, and then act like it's a free decision. We can't even coordinate within nations let alone between them.

So now people will be forced to choose between security and freedom. It's as if the whole world was turning into the Wests Tigers.
Click to expand...

Interesting take.

I read parts of a thesis in the 90s from I believe MIT university largely about this sort of thing written in the early 1970s.

To cut a long story short it went on to say by about the 2040s the world will reach a point where basically we can't go on, due to technological, economic, ecological, biological, population etc etc.

Question is will it become a self fulfilling prophesy?
 
Tucker said:
Can’t see that ever happening over there…I heard someone say recently that If Hamas destroyed all their weapons, it is likely hostilities will minimise.
If Israel destroyed all their weapons, it is likely Israel will be wiped out.
We will never know, but I suspect - as hypothetical and grandiose as this is - that it is close to the truth.
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The middle east was only partioned in the modern era less than 100 years ago.

Normally it takes longer than that for the dust to settle historically once regions achieve independence, new nations created till all sides find their natural limits.

Both sides hard liners don't really want peace for they prefer a fluid situation where the possibility for maximalist demands or even a better deal still exists .

For them peace means things are settled.
 
Tucker said:
Can’t see that ever happening over there…I heard someone say recently that If Hamas destroyed all their weapons, it is likely hostilities will minimise.
If Israel destroyed all their weapons, it is likely Israel will be wiped out.
We will never know, but I suspect - as hypothetical and grandiose as this is - that it is close to the truth.
Click to expand...
In international relations (IR) studies , it is called the "collective action problem". In Hobbesian IR theory destroying weapons would not happen in an anarchic international system without a sovereign authority or "Leviathan". Human nature is to act in its own self interests. Actors aren't willing to destroy their weapons because ironically those weapons also ensure a degree of peace.

Deterrence is a huge concept in IR studies. Often it ensures a détente. Similar to nuclear weapons and the IR concept of 'MAD'.

A firm and precise guarantee of mutual peace, would imo ensure the need for continuing an arms race can disappear and easing of tensions can follow.
 
pawsandclaws1 said:
I don't view it as a religious matter to determine how we treat one another. Morality is a set of customs and habits that shape how we think about how we should live or about what is a good human life. If we all treated one another with respect and valued the sanctity of human life, the world would be a better place. Can save that up for the next beauty competition.
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Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world like that. Often our ideas of freedom will impinge on another's. In human nature we don't always act with respect etc... its just the way life is. There is a finite number of resources/ wealth etc

Thomas Hobbes writes about this extensively about international relations under the concept of "Human Nature". We don;t live in a world of sunshine and rainbows. We humans are inherently competitive and driven by power, desires and aversions etc.

In particular, the opaque international anarchic structure of world politics...
 
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Siberian Kitten said:
In the end, the problem is eight billion humans. People are always getting in each others' way, on personal, regional and national levels. More competition. More being thwarted. More resentments. Fewer animals and plants.

All around the world, people want someone to blame. All they need do is look in the mirror and multiply by eight billion.

It's not anyone's fault, it's the planet's fault 🙂 We pretend to be in charge but we have been controlled by our environments every step of the way, and then act like it's a free decision. We can't even coordinate within nations let alone between them.
Click to expand...
Summed up in "Leviathan" Hobbesian IR theory
 
426Tlgerland said:
Far from over
more lives will be lost
I feel more lives from one side than the other will be lost and by a big margin
ground war by Israel will be like ethnic cleansing , there going to go in hard and nasty
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They are giving Palestinians warning that they will be attacking soon , The Hamas didn’t give any warning when tgey committed such atrocities
 
trentrunciman said:
Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world like that. Often our ideas of freedom will impinge on another's. In human nature we don't always act with respect etc... its just the way life is.

Thomas Hobbes writes about this extensively about international relations under the concept of "Human Nature". We don;t live in a world of sunshine and rainbows. We humans are inherently competitive and driven by power, desires and aversions etc.

In particular, the opaque international anarchic structure of world politics...
Click to expand...
I recall reading one of the very good NZ books on Gallipoli and the words of an old soldier resonated. He said to a much younger soldier as they looked at the dead on the parapet of the trench - if their mothers could see them now, they would put a stop to this war in 30 seconds.
 
Just watched the Neo Nazis storming through Flinders Street Station in Melbourne today like the late 1930s in Germany.
All the half wits have come out to play !
Let’s hope our police can keep it all under control.
 
Magpie_Magic said:
Interesting take.

I read parts of a thesis in the 90s from I believe MIT university largely about this sort of thing written in the early 1970s.

To cut a long story short it went on to say by about the 2040s the world will reach a point where basically we can't go on, due to technological, economic, ecological, biological, population etc etc.

Question is will it become a self fulfilling prophesy?
Click to expand...
2040 seems a bit arbitrary.

Personally, I think that billionaires and corporations, increasingly aided by AI, will be fine. The rests of us will struggle, though.

Imagine being a great ape just as humans were staring to take over. There were millions of other great apes, now there are thousands of them. Homo sapiens took all the best land and resources and left the other apes to fight it out over whatever was left.

More or less the same situation.
 
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