Wests Tigers Deep Dive of the Week

[AmericanHistoryX]

I vote Ink for house speaker!!! For wisdom alone. Talk about deep dive. Lets go deep.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

And Tucker for stats.

 

[Jolls]

So, there appears to be some interest in runniing with this so I will pull something together this week in preparation for next week. There have been a few suggestions raised to add to the original list including:

• Sports Psychology
• Mastering the Ruck: How the Tigers Can Dominate the Middle
• Salary Cap Strategy.
• The Role of Sports Science and Analytics in NRL
• Creating a Five-Year Plan for the Wests Tigers.
• Lessons from the Best NRL Clubs.

Given the "opinions expressed" over the weekend in relation to the differences in interpretation by the officials in relation to how we, or they, controlled the ruck, I propose that we kick off with Mastering the Ruck. However, I'm not wedded to that if there is a burning issue that someone would like to have addresed.

If someone is keen to run with this let me know; otherwise I'm happy to pick it up. Current thought are to address these key areas (happy for input as well):

• Ruck Speed
• Forward Dominance
• Play-the-Ball Strategies
• Defensive Ruck Control
• Benchmarking

So we can give people time to think and prepare I would like to keep at tleast a week or so in front with whast is coming next. So the one that seemed to garner interest from a number of people is the Salary Cap Strategy. So a couple oof admin points then:

Is there something else you would like to explore instead?

If not is someone out there keen to take the lead on this one?

Again, if not, I will start preparing something.

So over to you guys to drive what comes next.

Cheers n Beers

Jolls

 

[Red88_Tiger]

So, there appears to be some interest in runniing with this so I will pull something together this week in preparation for next week. There have been a few suggestions raised to add to the original list including:

• Sports Psychology
• Mastering the Ruck: How the Tigers Can Dominate the Middle
• Salary Cap Strategy.
• The Role of Sports Science and Analytics in NRL
• Creating a Five-Year Plan for the Wests Tigers.
• Lessons from the Best NRL Clubs.

Given the "opinions expressed" over the weekend in relation to the differences in interpretation by the officials in relation to how we, or they, controlled the ruck, I propose that we kick off with Mastering the Ruck. However, I'm not wedded to that if there is a burning issue that someone would like to have addresed.

If someone is keen to run with this let me know; otherwise I'm happy to pick it up. Current thought are to address these key areas (happy for input as well):

• Ruck Speed
• Forward Dominance
• Play-the-Ball Strategies
• Defensive Ruck Control
• Benchmarking

So we can give people time to think and prepare I would like to keep at tleast a week or so in front with whast is coming next. So the one that seemed to garner interest from a number of people is the Salary Cap Strategy. So a couple oof admin points then:

Is there something else you would like to explore instead?

If not is someone out there keen to take the lead on this one?

Again, if not, I will start preparing something.

So over to you guys to drive what comes next.

Cheers n Beers

Jolls

Don’t know if it’s measurable but regaining the control of the ruck after a line break

 

[Jolls]

Don’t know if it’s measurable but regaining the control of the ruck after a line break

I'll add it to the points and we will see where it goes. I'm pretty sure I have an answer but will do a bit more reseach before I put the strawman together.

 

[TrueTiger]

I'll add it to the points and we will see where it goes. I'm pretty sure I have an answer but will do a bit more reseach before I put the strawman together.

Great initiative Jolls that you have suggested...I was wondering if you think that some of us older fellas that played the game in the 80s can be involved with how the game of Rugby League has developed from then to now with rule changes,training,dicipline,technology and medical..
Im by no means an expert in any field but I think some discussion about our traditional game and how it was played for many,many years has changed the game for better or worse..just a thought...cheers mate..

 

[Jolls]

Great initiative Jolls that you have suggested...I was wondering if you think that some of us older fellas that played the game in the 80s can be involved with how the game of Rugby League has developed from then to now with rule changes,training,dicipline,technology and medical..
Im by no means an expert in any field but I think some discussion about our traditional game and how it was played for many,many years has changed the game for better or worse..just a thought...cheers mate..

Certainly can, the more the merrier. We can certainly look at the development of the game over the last (pick the number of years).

There was a definite shift in the game from the when players had full time jobs, trained on Tuesday and Thursdays then went to the pub for a dozen shooners, then played on Saturday or Sunday arvo and went for a dozen more.

Somewhere in between the sport became more professional, and the game developed from being played for the enjoyment of the players to being played to make money for sponsors. A shift from a focus on the male demographic to families, and the greatest two travesties: the decline of the scrum and the biff 🤣 🤣 🤣.

Always good to look back to get a feel for why things changed and get a look at what is the potential future of the game.

 

[Jolls]

Wests Tigers Deep Dive 1 - Mastering the Ruck: : How Wests Tigers Can Dominate the Middle

I thought I would punch this out prior to the games commencing so that those keen to participate have it in the back of their minds as they watch this weekends footy. There are lessons to be identified and potentially learned from the way other clubs handle this element of the game.

Introduction

In modern rugby league, control of the ruck is crucial to both attacking momentum and defensive stability. Wests Tigers have struggled in recent years to assert dominance in this area, often losing the battle early and unable to recover due to a combination of poor drills and skills. The aim of this week's deep dive is to evaluate this aspect of our defensive strategy; seeking to identify issues to be addressed while concurrently providing a learning opportunity for those that have a limited understanding of defensive structures.

Given we are playing one of the heavyweights this week. Our ability to control the ruck will be crucial to our performance on both sides of the ball.

Framework for discussion

In order to evaluate our performance I have pulled together a generic ruck control framework. This framework is by no means proposed as being NRL best practice. It is provided as a lens to conduct the evaluation of our ruck control.

Winning the contact:

The foundation of ruck control starts with winning the contact. In attack the focus areas are:

• Aggressive carries: Players must commit to powerful, direct runs with intent to break the advantage line.
• Leg drive and body height: Lowering body height before contact and continuing leg drive through tackles to maintain momentum.
• Post-contact meters: Forwards should focus on driving through tackles rather than simply absorbing contact.
• Strong post-contact positioning: Ball carrier should aim to land on their stomache (where practicable) and get to their feet quickly. Fighting in an upright positon allows the defenders time to reset.
• Effort Area: Leg Drivel.

In defence the focus areas are:

• Line speed: A dominant defensive line sets the tone by meeting attackers early and limiting meters gained.
• Dominant Tackle: Dominant tackles are crucial in controlling the ruck and stopping fast-paced attacking plays. The key aspects are:
  • Control: The defenders dictate the tackle and don’t allow the ball carrier to land on their elbows, knees or stomache. Where prcticable the attacker should be misaligned to the play so that they are required to re-orientate prior to playing the ball.
  • Slowed Ruck Speed: The referee gives defenders extra time before calling "held," allowing them to slow the play-the-ball.
  • Field Position Advantage: Preventing a quick play-the-ball helps the defensive line to reset and get organised.
• Effort Area: Dominant Tackle

The key to momentum: Ruck speed
Ruck speed dictates how quickly a team can generate attacking momentum. The faster a team plays the ball, the less time the opposition has to set their defensive line. The focus areas are:

• Quick play-the-balls: Ensuring ball carriers land on their stomach and use rapid movements to get up and play the ball.
• Minimising slow rucks: Avoiding unnecessary wrestle that leads to slower play-the-ball speeds and disrupted attack.
• Effort Area: Fight to get to feet.

Regaining control of the ruck after a line break
Regaining control is crucial to preventing a defensive collapse and maintaining the defensive structure. Focus areas are:

• Slow the Play
  • If possible, a dominant tackle can be used to get the ball carrier onto his/her back.
  • The defender(s) hold the ball carrier as long as possible with “overcommitting”.
• Aim to delay the play-the-ball by turning the attacker towards the sideline or isolating them from support.
• Defenders “reload”. Inside defenders compress & push up and in to eliminate, if possible, the chance to shift the ball wide. Available defenders fold inwards towards the ruck to form an "ad hoc" defensive line.
• Markers and A-defender control the ruck; pressuring the dummy half and first receiver. They transition to the application of inside pressure as the ball moves along the attacking line. The “off side” defenders shut the gate to defend against players cutting back against the grain.
• Should the compressed defence enable to opposition to shift quickly the scramble continues to push the play towards the sideline in an attempt to shut down the play or force and error.
• Leadership & communication is essential. Once the initial threat has been managed the defensive plan (slide, compress, up and in) must be communicated quickly to the entire team.
• Once reset the normal defensive pattern resumes.

For Wests Tigers to become a genuine NRL force, we must prioritise ruck control. By refining our ruck speed, play-the-ball techniques, and tackle dominance, the foundation is laid for all other aspects of game play. Mastering this aspect of the game not only increases the attacking threat is also fortifies our defence. If we can control the ruck, we are half way to winning the game. Controlling the ruck does not necessarily mean dominate it - but we have to assert enough control to enable our attack and defence strategies.

I look forward to a robust discussion on this between now and Thursday next week.

Also keen for thoughts on the topic, and potentially a volunteer to lead the next one!

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

 

[Vicious]

Brilliant stuff Jolls 👍

 

[old_man_tiger]

Good read Jolls.

I think we have two issues in defence, line speed and first contact. They are probably related, but if I could only have one I'd take better first contact. What stat would measure this, is it PCM conceded?

 

[innsaneink]

Good read Jolls.

I think we have two issues in defence, line speed and first contact. They are probably related, but if I could only have one I'd take better first contact. What stat would measure this, is it PCM conceded?

Yeah weve been guilty of being quite hesitant in line speed, whether thats a fitness issue or coaching directive to conserve juice. Either way its rarely worked for us.

People have been critical of Luai (minimal attacking spark} & Galvin (crabbing)...It often looks like were pressed for room with the defence up in our faces, a result Id guess of a slow ptb due to good opposition line speed or superior wrestling ( something we are very weak in)
i think we often panic and go wide whether its late in the set or just at the wrong time off a slow ptb.
Learning to wrestle as you mentioned to be tackled, elbows/knees is something we desperatley need as is slow down the oppositin in defence, with crafty moves thaat doesnt rely on testing the refs patience and conceding 6-2-gos or penaltys

Starting to waffle on a bit i think so will leave it there...this is quite new for this forum format

 

[Jolls]

Good read Jolls.

I think we have two issues in defence, line speed and first contact. They are probably related, but if I could only have one I'd take better first contact. What stat would measure this, is it PCM conceded?

To be honest I'm not sure how they would measure that. If bumped off I think it would be an ineffective tackle. If they stick but don't dominate I expect it would be PCM conceded. The key though is how long we hold up the ruck to enable the line to be reset. If we axe the attacker and he finds his stomache it is graat first contact and no PCM - so statistically a great outcome. The reality is he is on his feet and playing the ball before we an get the line set, wheras a Twal hold the player up and concede meters would be a negative stat bit the line could be set - so a much better outcome.

While I find stats useful I get much more from watching the player's effort areas. If you compare AD and Seyfarth you get a feel for what I mean. AD has some great skill (at times), but his effort areas are, for the most part, poor to non existant. No drive to get to his feet, no attempt to dominate the tackle, no drive to do the extras. Seyfarth on the other hand is a real tryer, but lacks that pure skill. His effort areas are excellent - but his impact on the game, at times, is less.

 

[Jolls]

Yeah weve been guilty of being quite hesitant in line speed, whether thats a fitness issue or coaching directive to conserve juice. Either way its rarely worked for us.

People have been critical of Luai (minimal attacking spark} & Galvin (crabbing)...It often looks like were pressed for room with the defence up in our faces, a result Id guess of a slow ptb due to good opposition line speed or superior wrestling ( something we are very weak in)
i think we often panic and go wide whether its late in the set or just at the wrong time off a slow ptb.
Learning to wrestle as you mentioned to be tackled, elbows/knees is something we desperatley need as is slow down the oppositin in defence, with crafty moves thaat doesnt rely on testing the refs patience and conceding 6-2-gos or penaltys

Starting to waffle on a bit i think so will leave it there...this is quite new for this forum format

I follow where you are going. I get the impression that our line speed varies greatly depending on how we are going with our ruck control. We really struggle in the first quarter of the game and I think this is related to our ability to control the ruck (ie prevent their quick PTB). I thik we get better as the game progresses - our wrestling technique probably has a bit to do with it - but for the most part I think it is that we don't have the size to compete early; fitness allows us to get into the game.

With ball in hand we don't have that Herbie Farnworth fight - those are the extras that win penalties and quick PTB. We have certainly improved - but there is still a way to go. Until we improve the foundational aspects of our game we will not become a top 4 threat. I feel that we are about two "Liam Martins" short of a premiership threat at the moment.

 

[innsaneink]

Ive been disappointed with pretty much all our first sets this year....parra made 60m from the kick.off in rd 2...Bula gets trapped back ingoal with our first touch after getting 10m out.
I want us to.come out and make a statement...i always joked our poor starts to all our 1st & 2nd halfs was because they still had benjis words fresh in their ears

 

[Needaname]

To be honest I'm not sure how they would measure that. If bumped off I think it would be an ineffective tackle. If they stick but don't dominate I expect it would be PCM conceded. The key though is how long we hold up the ruck to enable the line to be reset. If we axe the attacker and he finds his stomache it is graat first contact and no PCM - so statistically a great outcome. The reality is he is on his feet and playing the ball before we an get the line set, wheras a Twal hold the player up and concede meters would be a negative stat bit the line could be set - so a much better outcome.

While I find stats useful I get much more from watching the player's effort areas. If you compare AD and Seyfarth you get a feel for what I mean. AD has some great skill (at times), but his effort areas are, for the most part, poor to non existant. No drive to get to his feet, no attempt to dominate the tackle, no drive to do the extras. Seyfarth on the other hand is a real tryer, but lacks that pure skill. His effort areas are excellent - but his impact on the game, at times, is less.

In terms of capturing the statistics. Ineffective tackles are directly related to an offload conceded in contact.
Missed tackles are directly related to a tackle that has been broken by the attacker. (A stepped player can also be considered a tackle break).

 

[Needaname]

Wests Tigers Deep Dive 1 - Mastering the Ruck: : How Wests Tigers Can Dominate the Middle

I thought I would punch this out prior to the games commencing so that those keen to participate have it in the back of their minds as they watch this weekends footy. There are lessons to be identified and potentially learned from the way other clubs handle this element of the game.

Introduction

In modern rugby league, control of the ruck is crucial to both attacking momentum and defensive stability. Wests Tigers have struggled in recent years to assert dominance in this area, often losing the battle early and unable to recover due to a combination of poor drills and skills. The aim of this week's deep dive is to evaluate this aspect of our defensive strategy; seeking to identify issues to be addressed while concurrently providing a learning opportunity for those that have a limited understanding of defensive structures.

Given we are playing one of the heavyweights this week. Our ability to control the ruck will be crucial to our performance on both sides of the ball.

Framework for discussion

In order to evaluate our performance I have pulled together a generic ruck control framework. This framework is by no means proposed as being NRL best practice. It is provided as a lens to conduct the evaluation of our ruck control.

Winning the contact:

The foundation of ruck control starts with winning the contact. In attack the focus areas are:

• Aggressive carries: Players must commit to powerful, direct runs with intent to break the advantage line.
• Leg drive and body height: Lowering body height before contact and continuing leg drive through tackles to maintain momentum.
• Post-contact meters: Forwards should focus on driving through tackles rather than simply absorbing contact.
• Strong post-contact positioning: Ball carrier should aim to land on their stomache (where practicable) and get to their feet quickly. Fighting in an upright positon allows the defenders time to reset.
• Effort Area: Leg Drivel.

In defence the focus areas are:

• Line speed: A dominant defensive line sets the tone by meeting attackers early and limiting meters gained.
• Dominant Tackle: Dominant tackles are crucial in controlling the ruck and stopping fast-paced attacking plays. The key aspects are:
  • Control: The defenders dictate the tackle and don’t allow the ball carrier to land on their elbows, knees or stomache. Where prcticable the attacker should be misaligned to the play so that they are required to re-orientate prior to playing the ball.
  • Slowed Ruck Speed: The referee gives defenders extra time before calling "held," allowing them to slow the play-the-ball.
  • Field Position Advantage: Preventing a quick play-the-ball helps the defensive line to reset and get organised.
• Effort Area: Dominant Tackle

The key to momentum: Ruck speed
Ruck speed dictates how quickly a team can generate attacking momentum. The faster a team plays the ball, the less time the opposition has to set their defensive line. The focus areas are:

• Quick play-the-balls: Ensuring ball carriers land on their stomach and use rapid movements to get up and play the ball.
• Minimising slow rucks: Avoiding unnecessary wrestle that leads to slower play-the-ball speeds and disrupted attack.
• Effort Area: Fight to get to feet.

Regaining control of the ruck after a line break
Regaining control is crucial to preventing a defensive collapse and maintaining the defensive structure. Focus areas are:

• Slow the Play
  • If possible, a dominant tackle can be used to get the ball carrier onto his/her back.
  • The defender(s) hold the ball carrier as long as possible with “overcommitting”.
• Aim to delay the play-the-ball by turning the attacker towards the sideline or isolating them from support.
• Defenders “reload”. Inside defenders compress & push up and in to eliminate, if possible, the chance to shift the ball wide. Available defenders fold inwards towards the ruck to form an "ad hoc" defensive line.
• Markers and A-defender control the ruck; pressuring the dummy half and first receiver. They transition to the application of inside pressure as the ball moves along the attacking line. The “off side” defenders shut the gate to defend against players cutting back against the grain.
• Should the compressed defence enable to opposition to shift quickly the scramble continues to push the play towards the sideline in an attempt to shut down the play or force and error.
• Leadership & communication is essential. Once the initial threat has been managed the defensive plan (slide, compress, up and in) must be communicated quickly to the entire team.
• Once reset the normal defensive pattern resumes.

For Wests Tigers to become a genuine NRL force, we must prioritise ruck control. By refining our ruck speed, play-the-ball techniques, and tackle dominance, the foundation is laid for all other aspects of game play. Mastering this aspect of the game not only increases the attacking threat is also fortifies our defence. If we can control the ruck, we are half way to winning the game. Controlling the ruck does not necessarily mean dominate it - but we have to assert enough control to enable our attack and defence strategies.

I look forward to a robust discussion on this between now and Thursday next week.

Also keen for thoughts on the topic, and potentially a volunteer to lead the next one!

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

I think another key for us is for our players to recognise the status of the ruck in the tackle.
Watching back the Warriors game the second time especially after reading all the ref complaints it was quite noticeable that the warriors controlled the ruck the whole game.
There were moments where the Tigers would have a dominant tackle but often our six agains or pens were called on us when our players would try and manoeuvre a player in the ruck to slow him down even though we were not dominate in the tackle.
We are a team of scrappers at the moment, not physically in control but are staying in the game by frustrating the flow of the other sides.
Once we understand when we have the upper hand in a tackle and when we do not. I think will go a long way to having a big say in how the ruck is controlled.

 

[Tigerwould]

I think another key for us is for our players to recognise the status of the ruck in the tackle.
Watching back the Warriors game the second time especially after reading all the ref complaints it was quite noticeable that the warriors controlled the ruck the whole game.
There were moments where the Tigers would have a dominant tackle but often our six agains or pens were called on us when our players would try and manoeuvre a player in the ruck to slow him down even though we were not dominate in the tackle.
We are a team of scrappers at the moment, not physically in control but are staying in the game by frustrating the flow of the other sides.
Once we understand when we have the upper hand in a tackle and when we do not. I think will go a long way to having a big say in how the ruck is controlled.

We aren’t a small side. May, Pole and Twal have been pretty good in the middle. Working as a team in the ruck needs to be the focus.

 

[Jolls]

I think another key for us is for our players to recognise the status of the ruck in the tackle.
Watching back the Warriors game the second time especially after reading all the ref complaints it was quite noticeable that the warriors controlled the ruck the whole game.
There were moments where the Tigers would have a dominant tackle but often our six agains or pens were called on us when our players would try and manoeuvre a player in the ruck to slow him down even though we were not dominate in the tackle.
We are a team of scrappers at the moment, not physically in control but are staying in the game by frustrating the flow of the other sides.
Once we understand when we have the upper hand in a tackle and when we do not. I think will go a long way to having a big say in how the ruck is controlled.

Great observation and one of the key areas where we need to improve as I think it is one of the effort areas that could really make a different in thei aspect of the game.

It is more art than science though as it is one of the areas that is difficult to see from the stands/tele as we don't always hear the interaction with the officials. Did the Warriors get away with it because the ref had called a dominant tackle so they were given more leeway? If that was the case could it also be that we were trying to slow the play but our inexperience had us holding them down at the wrong time?

The dominant tackle is one of those subjective areas that some teams appear to have mastered and others fall foul of.

 

[Jolls]

We aren’t a small side. May, Pole and Twal have been pretty good in the middle. Working as a team in the ruck needs to be the focus.

While they have been pretty good and are strong there is a clear difference between them and Royce Hunt and Bird when they are on the field in attack. Hunt and Bird know how to find there feet for a quick PTB. Pole is also good for a few quick PTBs whereas May and Twal tend to be caught in the defence upright and fight hard for PCM.

Not all PCM are good so this is again where relying on pure stats can be a trap. If the PCM are from bending the line and followed by a quick PTB they are good metres as the defence is in a state of dissaray, When a player is held up and is fighting hard for that extra m or so until the ref calls held the defence has already retreated and is ready for the next set; even though the PTB speed may seem OK as the clock starts from when they are held.

More often than not we come unstuck when we have retreating defence, ie the oppositon has a quick or series of quick PTBs. This is where the Warriors carved us up last week. The halves combining straight up the middle and the winger down the sideline were two classic quick PTB outcomes.

Control of the ruck is is the foundation of play on both sides of the ball - we need to get much better in this area. Get this right and all aspects of play improve.

 

[BAGNF05]

While they have been pretty good and are strong there is a clear difference between them and Royce Hunt and Bird when they are on the field in attack. Hunt and Bird know how to find there feet for a quick PTB. Pole is also good for a few quick PTBs whereas May and Twal tend to be caught in the defence upright and fight hard for PCM.

Not all PCM are good so this is again where relying on pure stats can be a trap. If the PCM are from bending the line and followed by a quick PTB they are good metres as the defence is in a state of dissaray, When a player is held up and is fighting hard for that extra m or so until the ref calls held the defence has already retreated and is ready for the next set. Even though the PTB speed may seem OK as the clock starts from when they are held.

More often than not we come unstuck when we have retreating defence, ie the oppositon has a quick or series of quick PTBs. This is where the Warriors carved us up last week. The halves combining straight up the middle and the winger down the sideline were two classic quick PTB outcomes.

Control of the ruck is is the foundation of play on both sides of the ball - we need to get much better in this area. Get this right and all aspects of play improve.

You only need to look at the types of guys Bellamy signs. Big athletic, robust types. Not too many little fellas who can’t dominate in a tackle. He gets them in and teaches them his way. It’s an area of coaching Benji will need to address if he hopes to have a prolonged career.