LIVE GAME Round 26 v Raiders

Live Game Discussion
IronFist said:
It's plainly obvious in this case fans don't understand what constitutes gaining a bit more time in the ruck, and what doesn't. Every single tackle is a contest between ball carrier and tackler. The ball carrier attempts to win the collision, poke their nose through two defenders and immediately find their front when they come to ground. If they achieve this, they've won the tackle and defenders cannot slow the play the ball by holding down.

The defenders win with contact if they stop the ball carrier making metres in the collision, attempt to hold the player up, bring them to ground on their back, or turn them 'east-west' (or even south-north if they can achieve it). That's a dominant tackle and they've earned the right to slow the play the ball. Penrith are so freakin' good at this and is a big reason for their dominance over their premiership years.

So for a poster to ignore the context of the tackle when they question why Twal gets penalised but Canberra 'do the same thing', but get away with it, just highlights how much fans don't know about the game they claim to know so much about.

Every second post in this thread during the game is about a ref's decision. It's embarrassing.

The game has been ruined by prominent commentators and the media in general who question officiating decisions every single game. This club's supporters continually play the victim, but referees officiate what they see. On one hand, supporters lament how poor the team's contact and ruck control is, and on the other they harp on about poor treatment from the referees. The reason Wests don't get the same treatment as the good teams is because they are not as good as those teams at winning the ruck! It's been an issue for seasons now, and until the club recruits a couple of aggressive forwards (either tall or with leg speed), and a big focus in training is put on winning the collision in every tackle and controlling the ruck, Wests will continue to be second best in most games.
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I am yet to see a supporter group that doesn't blame the referees for decisions that go against them and plenty of coaches do too - it's just when you are winning it's less of an issue.
This is not unique to WTs fans. Plenty of teams break the rules to also try and get an advantage and are considered smart for getting away with it. I applaud them for trying to rattle Canberra yesterday it kept us in the game - against on paper what looked like a superior pack - and frustrated the hell out of their very one eyed supporter group and their coach.
Prefer to try and limit their ability to roll through us by fledging the rules and stay in the game even if it risks getting penalized.
 
IronFist said:
It's plainly obvious in this case fans don't understand what constitutes gaining a bit more time in the ruck, and what doesn't. Every single tackle is a contest between ball carrier and tackler. The ball carrier attempts to win the collision, poke their nose through two defenders and immediately find their front when they come to ground. If they achieve this, they've won the tackle and defenders cannot slow the play the ball by holding down.

The defenders win with contact if they stop the ball carrier making metres in the collision, attempt to hold the player up, bring them to ground on their back, or turn them 'east-west' (or even south-north if they can achieve it). That's a dominant tackle and they've earned the right to slow the play the ball. Penrith are so freakin' good at this and is a big reason for their dominance over their premiership years.

So for a poster to ignore the context of the tackle when they question why Twal gets penalised but Canberra 'do the same thing', but get away with it, just highlights how much fans don't know about the game they claim to know so much about.

Every second post in this thread during the game is about a ref's decision. It's embarrassing.

The game has been ruined by prominent commentators and the media in general who question officiating decisions every single game. This club's supporters continually play the victim, but referees officiate what they see. On one hand, supporters lament how poor the team's contact and ruck control is, and on the other they harp on about poor treatment from the referees. The reason Wests don't get the same treatment as the good teams is because they are not as good as those teams at winning the ruck! It's been an issue for seasons now, and until the club recruits a couple of aggressive forwards (either tall or with leg speed), and a big focus in training is put on winning the collision in every tackle and controlling the ruck, Wests will continue to be second best in most games.
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Well said, I’ve been banging on about this for years.
The victim mentality culture of this clubs supporters is an embarrassment.
Freddy said it last weekend…”Wests Tigers fans could boo for their country”. As a fan I was getting the shits with that Leichhardt crowd as they were so god damned negative. There was no where near enough chanting or supporting to get behind their team, just booing everything. It comes across as not understanding the game. A lack of rugby league IQ. A woe is me mindset that surely influences brain explosions from the playing group.
I was at the game in Canberra yesterday. There was a small supporters bay for our mob in the southern end….maybe 500 strong?
There were times during the game when their boos were drowning out the celebrations from a sold out crowd full of Raiders fans who were happily celebrating their minor premiership winning team.
It seems in built.
 
Tucker said:
Well said, I’ve been banging on about this for years.
The victim mentality culture of this clubs supporters is an embarrassment.
Freddy said it last weekend…”Wests Tigers fans could boo for their country”. As a fan I was getting the shits with that Leichhardt crowd as they were so god damned negative. There was no where near enough chanting or supporting to get behind their team, just booing everything. It comes across as not understanding the game. A lack of rugby league IQ. A woe is me mindset that surely influences brain explosions from the playing group.
I was at the game in Canberra yesterday. There was a small supporters bay for our mob in the southern end….maybe 500 strong?
There were times during the game when their boos were drowning out the celebrations from a sold out crowd full of Raiders fans who were happily celebrating their minor premiership winning team.
It seems in built.
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I was reading the Kennel after the Dogs got beat by the Storm, and they almost collectively agreed that the ref had handed them the game on a silver platter. Was a real eye opener. Wouldn’t see that kind of honesty on here in a million years. There were calls for the police to investigate yesterday’s game FFS.
 
Telltails said:
I am yet to see a supporter group that doesn't blame the referees for decisions that go against them and plenty of coaches do too - it's just when you are winning it's less of an issue.
This is not unique to WTs fans. Plenty of teams break the rules to also try and get an advantage and are considered smart for getting away with it. I applaud them for trying to rattle Canberra yesterday it kept us in the game - against on paper what looked like a superior pack - and frustrated the hell out of their very one eyed supporter group and their coach.
Prefer to try and limit their ability to roll through us by fledging the rules and stay in the game even if it risks getting penalized.
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You are wrong. Our club are gold medalists at it and far exceed others.
I agree that the tactic was smart as slowing their roll on would reduce scoring opportunities but from some reason, we just can’t do it subtly enough to get by. It was blatantly obvious to the point that it ruined the spectacle a bit.
 
GNR4LIFE said:
I was reading the Kennel after the Dogs got beat by the Storm, and they almost collectively agreed that the ref had handed them the game on a silver platter. Was a real eye opener. Wouldn’t see that kind of honesty on here in a million years. There were calls for the police to investigate yesterday’s game FFS.
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Really?
That is a new level of butthurt 🤣
 
gregjm87 said:
Was at my clubs finals all yesterday, missed the game. So can't comment on officiating as a whole sorry mate.
I did look at a replay of the tackle in question however.
Papallii wins the collision. Spins out of the contact pushes forward and finds his front. He is in a position to get up and play the ball but Twal is holding him down, not allowing him to do so. Now Twal isnt holding him much longer than most other tackles but he is required to release earlier since Papallii has won the collision.
Compare this to say the Tapine tackle just after. Tapine eventually gets to his front by beating our wrestle. But the hit up itself, no-one won the collision. He hasn't earnt the right for a quick play the ball. Hence his appeals to the ref after the tackle were ignored.
If I get a chance to watch the game I might timestamp a few more tackles more similar to Papalliis but not sure I'll get the chance this weekend.
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Thanks for the breakdown...

Somewhere along the line, Ive lost track with the way the game is officiated around the ruck regarding the wrestle, so I appreciate the insights..
 
IronFist said:
It's plainly obvious in this case fans don't understand what constitutes gaining a bit more time in the ruck, and what doesn't. Every single tackle is a contest between ball carrier and tackler. The ball carrier attempts to win the collision, poke their nose through two defenders and immediately find their front when they come to ground. If they achieve this, they've won the tackle and defenders cannot slow the play the ball by holding down.

The defenders win with contact if they stop the ball carrier making metres in the collision, attempt to hold the player up, bring them to ground on their back, or turn them 'east-west' (or even south-north if they can achieve it). That's a dominant tackle and they've earned the right to slow the play the ball. Penrith are so freakin' good at this and is a big reason for their dominance over their premiership years.

So for a poster to ignore the context of the tackle when they question why Twal gets penalised but Canberra 'do the same thing', but get away with it, just highlights how much fans don't know about the game they claim to know so much about.

Every second post in this thread during the game is about a ref's decision. It's embarrassing.

The game has been ruined by prominent commentators and the media in general who question officiating decisions every single game. This club's supporters continually play the victim, but referees officiate what they see. On one hand, supporters lament how poor the team's contact and ruck control is, and on the other they harp on about poor treatment from the referees. The reason Wests don't get the same treatment as the good teams is because they are not as good as those teams at winning the ruck! It's been an issue for seasons now, and until the club recruits a couple of aggressive forwards (either tall or with leg speed), and a big focus in training is put on winning the collision in every tackle and controlling the ruck, Wests will continue to be second best in most games.
Click to expand...
I am questioning this particular one because I know Greig can provide a breakdown. I've played the game and followed it for god knows how long and I don't understand the rules in the ruck these days.. so a bit of education isn't a bad thing

I come from a time where we'd be rewarded for tackling around the legs . You could hold on longer and not be penalised...

The games changed alot since then..

I see a tackle as either dominant or not.. I don't think it should be more complicated than that - because that's where the ambiguity comes into it..

The amount of time I see flops and third man in that aren't penalised, but then that one against Papa is penalised - it creates alot of confusion..

Are flops/3rd man in, no longer something they penalise?
 
mtd#2 said:
Thanks for the breakdown...

Somewhere along the line, Ive lost track with the way the game is officiated around the ruck regarding the wrestle, so I appreciate the insights..
Click to expand...
Thanks everyone for clearing that up. Here i was thinking the referring was one sided. And nitpicking only one side. Wow what a dickhead I am. Obviously didn't know what I was looking at. Maybe next I won't comment until the better minds do so I can agree with them. 😀
 
Tucker said:
Well said, I’ve been banging on about this for years.
The victim mentality culture of this clubs supporters is an embarrassment.
Freddy said it last weekend…”Wests Tigers fans could boo for their country”. As a fan I was getting the shits with that Leichhardt crowd as they were so god damned negative. There was no where near enough chanting or supporting to get behind their team, just booing everything. It comes across as not understanding the game. A lack of rugby league IQ. A woe is me mindset that surely influences brain explosions from the playing group.
I was at the game in Canberra yesterday. There was a small supporters bay for our mob in the southern end….maybe 500 strong?
There were times during the game when their boos were drowning out the celebrations from a sold out crowd full of Raiders fans who were happily celebrating their minor premiership winning team.
It seems in built.
Click to expand...
Tigers fans are just more passionate and knowledgeable
 
Squater said:
Thanks everyone for clearing that up. Here i was thinking the referring was one sided. And nitpicking only one side. Wow what a dickhead I am. Obviously didn't know what I was looking at. Maybe next I won't comment until the better minds do so I can agree with them. 😀
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Nah mate .. he definitely gave Canberra the rub , same as the blind fool in th bunker with the idiotic disruotor bS
 
Tucker said:
You are wrong. Our club are gold medalists at it and far exceed others.
I agree that the tactic was smart as slowing their roll on would reduce scoring opportunities but from some reason, we just can’t do it subtly enough to get by. It was blatantly obvious to the point that it ruined the spectacle a bit.
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Nup. - have read enough social media and attended enough games in my time - home and away - to know that every club have fans that cry foul at the hand of the referee and we are no different in that regard. We have just had less to cheer about in recent times.
It's every fans right to have the blinkers on at a home game bugger being objective. The atmosphere on the hill was great last week - until it wasnt with 15 to go - and then you could hear a pin drop. Home games are about getting an advantage with the referee and that includes aiming to get the refs attention when looking for an advantage - and there is a percentage of fans from every fan base that have absolutely no objectivity just as parochial as any that are fans of this club.
 
gregjm87 said:
Was at my clubs finals all yesterday, missed the game. So can't comment on officiating as a whole sorry mate.
I did look at a replay of the tackle in question however.
Papallii wins the collision. Spins out of the contact pushes forward and finds his front. He is in a position to get up and play the ball but Twal is holding him down, not allowing him to do so. Now Twal isnt holding him much longer than most other tackles but he is required to release earlier since Papallii has won the collision.
Compare this to say the Tapine tackle just after. Tapine eventually gets to his front by beating our wrestle. But the hit up itself, no-one won the collision. He hasn't earnt the right for a quick play the ball. Hence his appeals to the ref after the tackle were ignored.
If I get a chance to watch the game I might timestamp a few more tackles more similar to Papalliis but not sure I'll get the chance this weekend.
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There's a couple of massive issues with the way the ruck is refereed these days. Refs have been trained to use use "The Method" (no joke, that is what it is called). The Method is all about reffing on indicators. E.g, players need to peel 2 and 1 or 1 and 2, if they don't it is a penalty. There is an issue here though which you have pretty much pointed to in your post - the Twal offence was absolutely marginal and clearly called based on an indicator. At other times, we see 6 agains after lightning fast ptbs because an indicator is missed. It is nonsensical and leads to huge shifts in momentum.

You are absolutely right about winning contact determining what happens. However, if you had watched the game live you would have seen that in the first half we were winning contact and were not getting any of the calls the Raiders got in the second half. It was the same in periods of the second half as well. The stats bear this out - despite a huge deficit in possession, the MPR and PCMPR were tilted toward us.
 
IronFist said:
It's plainly obvious in this case fans don't understand what constitutes gaining a bit more time in the ruck, and what doesn't. Every single tackle is a contest between ball carrier and tackler. The ball carrier attempts to win the collision, poke their nose through two defenders and immediately find their front when they come to ground. If they achieve this, they've won the tackle and defenders cannot slow the play the ball by holding down.

The defenders win with contact if they stop the ball carrier making metres in the collision, attempt to hold the player up, bring them to ground on their back, or turn them 'east-west' (or even south-north if they can achieve it). That's a dominant tackle and they've earned the right to slow the play the ball. Penrith are so freakin' good at this and is a big reason for their dominance over their premiership years.

So for a poster to ignore the context of the tackle when they question why Twal gets penalised but Canberra 'do the same thing', but get away with it, just highlights how much fans don't know about the game they claim to know so much about.

Every second post in this thread during the game is about a ref's decision. It's embarrassing.

The game has been ruined by prominent commentators and the media in general who question officiating decisions every single game. This club's supporters continually play the victim, but referees officiate what they see. On one hand, supporters lament how poor the team's contact and ruck control is, and on the other they harp on about poor treatment from the referees. The reason Wests don't get the same treatment as the good teams is because they are not as good as those teams at winning the ruck! It's been an issue for seasons now, and until the club recruits a couple of aggressive forwards (either tall or with leg speed), and a big focus in training is put on winning the collision in every tackle and controlling the ruck, Wests will continue to be second best in most games.
Click to expand...
Rubbish take.

We were clearly winning contact in this match until the point where we just couldn't withstand the dogshit run we were getting with the refs.

This was clear on the eye test and was supported by statistics - first half post contact metres, run metres, distance per set set, tackle busts, all well, well in our favour. We were getting numbers in tackles and swamping the.. When attacking Raiders line their edge defence was clearly up to early. Yet despite all this, we somehow ended up losing set restarts 4-1 in that half.

You can be sanctimonious all you like. However, refs are human and subjective biases are enormous in all elements of life. It is pretty foolish to discount that refs wouldn't be impacted in the small margins we are taking about when it comes to PTB speed.
 
Tucker said:
I went to GIO Stadium today.
Few things I noticed…
1. We were very poorly disciplined in the ruck. Ruined our own momentum on more than a few occasions with head highs or holding on too long.
2. For decent passages in that game we were all over them and they were gasping for air but then we’d let them off the hook Ala point 1.
3. Latu and Bula do not straighten our attack as much as I thought they may do. Both of them run on an angle I’d describe as shit….(55-60 degrees) it kills a lot of half chances.
4. Our pigs matched this very good Raiders pack. They really muscled up and had a go. I was proud of them and most Raiders sitting around me were very complimentary of them.
5. We have no idea whatsoever in attack and I mean we have NO FKING IDEA 🤣. We literally throw as much shit at the wall as possible and hope some sticks. There’s no plan, no shape no organisation. No one is leading at all it’s just suck it and see and individual brilliance took advantage on a couple of occasions. Our tactical kicking sucks and again is just ad lib trash.The Raiders had clear plans and you could see their halves directing everything. They executed a bit clumsily but you could certainly see what they were trying to do.
6. Our boys are tough. They play for each other and don’t give in. If we can foster this seize mentality further, they’ll be hard to beat as even though they are running around like headless chooks, they worry the hell out of defences as they just keep coming at you.
7. Ethan Strange is going to be one serious player. I’ve been a fan for a while and talked him up a lot last year but bloody hell, seeing him live is something else. Amazing stamina and determination. Tough as hell….that hit Skelton put on him shook the stadium and he bounced up laughing. Always on the ball and always moving across in cover. Great player.
8. The Viking Clap followed up by the Green Machine is a great advantage to that club. The stadium is pumped and the atmosphere electric. It must be an amazing feeling running out to that.
9. Canberra really celebrated their minor premiership well. They deserved the accolade and most of the crowd stuck around for the presentation of old JJ.
10. The Tigers players all went to the small supporters bay at the southern end after the game and thanked them. It was good to see.
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You went to GIO ,must have been one of a handful of Tigers supporters
Thought you lived up north
Respect your views as you obviously watch matches carefully
However don't ever remember you agreeing that Tigers ever got a tough deal by refs .In fact seems you feel we got off lightly in this game !
With pens + 6 agains 16-7 in favour of Canberra hard to imagine how much worse it can be !
One good thing this year
Total matches suspended 2024 19 matches
2025 5 matches ( 1 round to go )
 
We rarely win first contact in defence, so in order to slow the play the ball we have to skate on the edge of the rules, hence the higher penalty count. We do get the raw end of the deal on many occasions, most glaring of which is the disruptor. I would argue you have to make contact with the player catching it or completely block their path without making a play for the ball to be deemed a disruption...for goodness sakes any FB worth his salt should not be put off by a hand waving in the air or be fooled by a player jumping too early.
 
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