2023 Israel–Hamas war

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earl said:

www.abc.net.au

What is Hamas, how does it control the Gaza Strip and why has Israel declared war against it?

Officially considered a terrorist group by the Australian government, Hamas has controlled Gaza since it ousted Fatah forces during a brief civil war in 2007.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au



The fighting has been going on for years. Israel has taken heaps of land from Palestine. Israel has been occupying Palestinian land for a long time. There is plenty of justification. That doesn't mean the actions were right or correct but the situation is extremely bad.
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Wow, just wow. Lets set this in stone that Earl has stated that what happened on the weekend was justified.

Hamas stormed into a sovereign nation and systematically murdered and slaughtered innocent unarmed civilians, men, women, kids, babys, elderly women.

Disgusting, just disgusting and anyone like Earl who says it is justified is also disgusting. There is no moral equivalence.
 
Moh said:
I know the purpose of social media as awareness, but man - I will never un-see some of the things I have seen, without a warning even. As a father to a toddler, it's bloody hard to see.
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ITs unbelievably disgusting and unsettling, but everyone should be made to watch it. To be honest I think the people here that are arguing moral equivalence or whataboutism can not have seen what has happened.

Moh said:
Hamas isn't representative of Palestine. Their actions are just as horribles as the decades of brutality inflicted by Israel - not by a terrorist group, by a government. This is a big difference.
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Hamas is a disgusting, inhuman terrorist group. It was also democratically elected.
Moh said:
Killing innocent people is not OK by anyone, for any reason. It breaks me to see those innocent kids caught up in this.
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Well said.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
Wow, just wow. Lets set this in stone that Earl has stated that what happened on the weekend was justified.

Hamas stormed into a sovereign nation and systematically murdered and slaughtered innocent unarmed civilians, men, women, kids, babys, elderly women. They decapitated babys. They decapitated men with a blunt garden tool whilst they were still alive and uploaded the video. They raped women so badly that their pants were saturated in their own blood and paraded them through the streets of Gaza and uploaded the video, they murdered a mother in front of her 5yo son and then stole that kid, dragged him back to Gaza and had Palestinian kinds beat him with sticks and taunt him to make him say "mummy" and uploaded the video. They raped a young girl so badly that she was unconscious face down in the back of a ute naked with her legs bent at 90degrees in the direction that they can not go so that they could parade her through Gaza for "supporters" to spit on her and bash her unconscious body with wood, and uploaded the video. They set fire to kibbutz to scare the inhabitants out into the open so that they could systematically shoot them and then uploaded the video.

Disgusting, just disgusting and anyone like Earl who says it is justified is also disgusting. There is no moral equivalence.
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No different to what Israel/ Mossad have done.

More states will become emboldened with the decline of American liberalism …

Increasing proxy wars…the US is run by Israel anyway so will inevitably be retaliation
 
tony soprano said:
Anyone know why so many countries like Australia are getting involved with protest?

Feels like they were simmering.

It's not like this is the first war.
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IMO there are a couple of reasons.

Firstly, there are a lot of displaced palestinians and arabs worldwide with probable legitimate complaints about the treatment of Palestinians.

Secondly, the western world has been fed a cartoon version of the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict which is broken along ideological lines and the far left are provided with a dumbed down simple cartoon version that Israel/Jews/Zion bad and poor oppressed Palestinians are innocent victims, so when last weekends atrocities unfold that dont match the cartoon version of whats going on, a lot of people in western world instinctively react along ideological lines and instinctively react with "whataboutisms" and deflections of previous injustices.

There is no moral equivalence.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
So it was justified?
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You could argue violence was justified for both sides..there has been violence for decades…naturally our news media will support Israel (similar to pro media stance on Ukraine and opposition of Russia - which I disagree with). Israel runs the US

With respect to this conflict it goes far back to the Balfour declaration, McMahon and Turkey…

The international political system is inherently anarchic (neo realism) which imo means that each actor will do what’s best for their own interests…it’s futile to debate who has a greater claim to the land as you could argue both sides…similar to structural realism theory.. (have a read or look up mearsheimer he’s a wonderful IR commentator )

I mean in 1936 the Brits tried to partition the land into two segments but all that failed…from memory the Brit’s had the white paper…

Making matters even more complicated is the fact that within both sides there are disagreements, for example Orthodox Jews are unwilling to compromise with liberal Jews and then there are in betweens etc


Theoretically a separation to some capacity is the best solution imo - breaking up the country into two autonomous districts and giving them both self government to the extent that they don’t interfere with each other. Similar to the British proposal in 1936.



I couldn’t argue for NATO and the west with regard to Ukraine but with with this conflict it’s a lot more complex
 
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People should watch this. Yes it is put together and commented on by Ben Shapiro who is a conservative, orthodox jew so his partiality and bias is known up front, but this is a compilation of videos uploaded by Hamas. It is not Israeli propoganda, it is palestinian self promotion.

Everyone who is arguing moral equivalence, whataboutism should be forced to watch this video and not look away. Hamas video starts at 10:50

 
Mistymuzzle said:
People should watch this. Yes it is put together and commented on by Ben Shapiro who is a conservative, orthodox jew so his partiality and bias is known up front, but this is a compilation of videos uploaded by Hamas. It is not Israeli propoganda, it is palestinian self promotion.

Everyone who is arguing moral equivalence, whataboutism should be forced to watch this video and not look away. Hamas video starts at 10:50

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There is no what aboutism mate they’re both evil & both as bad as each other. Israel are not the good guys here.
 
Tangentially, what recent events does show is the increasingly multipolar IR environment that we live in now…meaning the decline of US liberalism. A shift from Unipolarity post Cold War.

Countries aren’t afraid of the US / NATO no more …the balance of power is far more even now…less likely of great power war but more proxy wars will happen …

States obviously won’t directly intervene in this conflict - because of the prisoners dilemma (game theory) but will be inevitably lead to more subtle forms of conflict
 
trentrunciman said:
You could argue violence was justified for both sides..there has been violence for decades…naturally our news media will support Israel (similar to pro media stance on Ukraine and opposition of Russia - which I disagree with). Israel runs the US
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Yes there has been violence for decades, but IMO there is NO justification for the level of inhumane barbarism that occurred on the weekend.

trentrunciman said:
With respect to this conflict it goes far back to the Balfour declaration, McMahon and Turkey…
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No it goes back 3000 years.
trentrunciman said:
The international political system is inherently anarchic (neo realism) which imo means that each actor will do what’s best for their own interests…it’s futile to debate who has a greater claim to the land as you could argue both sides…similar to structural realism theory..

I mean in 1936 the Brits tried to partition the land into two segments but all that failed…from memory the Brit’s had the white paper…

Making matters even more complicated is the fact that within both sides there are disagreements, for example Orthodox Jews are unwilling to compromise with liberal Jews and then there are in betweens etc
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I agree with you 100% that there are legitimate arguments, based on historical decisions made over almost a century that strengthen everyones case and also agree with you that its futile to argue who has greater claim to the land. Which means it comes down to "Does Israel have a right to exist?". Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran say no. Whenever you see hear the chant or slogan (that was chanted at the "peaceful" Melbourne protest) "Palestine Free! From the River to the Sea!", this means the obliteration of Israel. IMO from a humanitarian, cultural and practical standpoint, this will not and should not happen.


trentrunciman said:
Theoretically a separation to some capacity is the best solution imo but either way arguments can be made for both sides…
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Israel have offered Palestine their own state (two state solution ) three times, 2000, 2007 and 2010. In 2000 at Camp David, Israels offer was for 95% of the West Bank and the entirety of the Gaza Strip with Israel maintaining the balance of occupied territory.

In 2005 Israel initiated talks that culminated in the 2007 offer and totally withdrew form Gaza, leaving it for Palestinian self determination. The Palestinians responded by electing a terrorist organisation and have poisoned the well ever since.

Yes its complex, yes Israel have been aggressors, but there is no hope for peace whilst Palestinians are represented by Hamas. Israel can not and will not negotiate with terrorists who's stated aim is to eradicate the Jewish state and last weekend drew a line under that.
 
trentrunciman said:
Theoretically a separation to some capacity is the best solution imo - breaking up the country into two autonomous districts and giving them both self government to the extent that they don’t interfere with each other. Similar to the British proposal in 1936.
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your edit is worth a follow up response.....

Similar to the Israeli proposals in 2000, 2007 and 2010.

There will never be a two state solution proposed whilst Hamas exists/has power.
 
Mistymuzzle said:
Yes there has been violence for decades, but IMO there is NO justification for the level of inhumane barbarism that occurred on the weekend.



No it goes back 3000 years.
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As you say, this conflict dates back a long time so how is what transpired on the weekend any different to previous skirmishes?
 
Mistymuzzle said:
your edit is worth a follow up response.....

Similar to the Israeli proposals in 2000, 2007 and 2010.

There will never be a two state solution proposed whilst Hamas exists/has power.
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Jesus Christ…I offered a solution..I’m not debating what parties and their effects etc man…

I’m out
 
Mistymuzzle said:
your edit is worth a follow up response.....

Similar to the Israeli proposals in 2000, 2007 and 2010.

There will never be a two state solution proposed whilst Hamas exists/has power.
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Only 32% of Jewish Israelis support a two-state solution with Palestine.
 
trentrunciman said:
As you say, this conflict dates back a long time so how is what transpired on the weekend any different to previous skirmishes?
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Serious question. Did yo uwatch the video I posted?

IMO because it wasnt a military skirmish. There was no military objective, they werent trying to attack missile bases or infrastructure or equipment. They specifically went in to attack as many innocent civilians as possible and intentionally (as evidenced by the videos that Hamas themselves uploaded) in the most barbaric, disgusting inhumane methods possible.

Israel will strike back disproportionately and many Palestinian innocent civilians will die, particularly with Hamas tactics or mixing civilian and military together, but at least Israel (in this instance) do have a military objective (dismantle Hamas and infrastructure) and IMO justification. IMO, in this instance, dead palestinian civilian blood will be on the hands of Hamas.
 
trentrunciman said:
Jesus Christ…I offered a solution..I’m not debating what parties and their effects etc man…

I’m out
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Mate you misinterpreted my response. I agree with you that a two state solution is the ultimate solution. I was merely pointing out that as well as the British proposal in 36, Israel themselves have offered Palestinians their own state three times. The 2000 offer was incredibly generous with hindsight. I believe that Palestinians deserve to have the opportunity for a free, peaceful, prosperous state but that is never going to happen whilst they are governed by Hamas who are explicit about their ideological mission to eradicate the jewish state. Its beyond politics, its mere logical survival. Israel will never allow it and last weekend underlines it forever.

Palestinians deserve a chance at a peaceful, free state. Their only hope and chance is if Hamas are eradicated.
 
Most Palestinians in Gaza lived in Israel proper . Gaza is basically a giant refugee camp.

The water is now cut to 1. 8 million in Gaza.

They will become refugees and head for Egypt.

Probably the end of any chance of a two state solution now.......there won't be many or any Palestinians left in the area to create one.
 
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