A crucial period for Madge...

[JC99]

Been thinking about this ...I don't know if it is...Our own fans have already laid out the excuses ...not his roster ..we suck no one would do any better ..looks like 2021 is a write off before a ball is kicked as those same contacts holding us back are still in play..so why would we go any better..

The fact too that the media speak after the rumoured link to the Cowgirls both from Madge and the club via the chairman shows a commitment on the face of it..

So it's not really a crucial period at all..free pass til 2022 then probably 2025 cause by then he should have his team no dud contracts no dud signings no plodders no nuffies ..no reason not to be un defeated Minor Premiers and eventual Premiers for 11 consecutive years after that..

So you’re saying there’s no real current pressure to perform - there are excuses we all accept. I reckon there’s a trust in Madge (almost desperate) that he will enforce the standards that will bring success. I don’t think the club knows what success looks like but is trying to bring in people who do - Madge, Hartigan.
I listened to Nathan brown last week. He really spoke sense. He said at the end of the day, no matter what systems, coach, playing style you’ve got, you need the roster. Therefore roster management is the most important thing. Rings true to me.

Yes there is no pressure to perform in the short term..we just have to continue to live with that...

2019 not his roster
2020 not his roster
2021 not his roster
2022 His roster but they need time to gel
2023 refs are killing us
2024 start from 2019 again, repeat.

Nah, knowing our club halfway through next season he leaves or gets booted. New coach comes in, says all the same stuff, 2 years later gets booted. Wash rinse repeat for the rest of eternity or until we get moved to Perth

Mate your posts have become a lot more negative than usual in the last few hours, you are starting to sound like me.

Maybe the forum is getting to me ? if we win again I’ll feel better

Stay strong bro. To many blokes looking for whats wrong instead of focusing on the positive dont leave me to join them

Don’t worry I’ll keep fighting the good fight ? if we beat the bulldogs next week that meant we are back on track and everything is good in the world ?

Good to hear mate, if we agreed this place would be boring. I enjoy your posts.

Cheers mate you too, Always enjoy talking footy with ya

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

One observation from last night - They looked really tired. Almost like they played an hour before and had to back up. I wonder how effective Madge is at the light and shade or whether he is just full throttle with training all week every week.

Maybe they got the stick for last weeks efforts.

Might seem counter intuitive but I'm for it. I feel like for years the players have been allowed to coast on through without repercussions. We've not made the finals for 8, soon to be 9, seasons. The players know they will walk on in next week to play and collect, so I'm not against the caning they might cop in training and the weekly droppings. They can enjoy their large contracts now, but it's going to hurt them when they come up for renewal and a team that hasn't made the finals in 9 years is dropping them.

I had a sobering thought when I was watching the pregame the other night and they were talking about Chris Lawrence and Benji Marshall, he (Lawrence,) has played 15 seasons and only seen two finals campaigns. 250 games, and only 5 of those were finals games. It's a shame a player of his calibre was wasted. Same as Farah, 277 matches for Wests and only played 9 finals games, 4 of which were 2005 (obviously.) As much as I hate the three, I'm starting to see why guys like Woods, Tedesco and Moses wanted out. I don't like the way they all did it, but they probably didn't want to be the next Rowdy.

 

[Furious1]

One observation from last night - They looked really tired. Almost like they played an hour before and had to back up. I wonder how effective Madge is at the light and shade or whether he is just full throttle with training all week every week.

Maybe they got the stick for last weeks efforts.

Might seem counter intuitive but I'm for it. I feel like for years the players have been allowed to coast on through without repercussions. We've not made the finals for 8, soon to be 9, seasons. The players know they will walk on in next week to play and collect, so I'm not against the caning they might cop in training and the weekly droppings. They can enjoy their large contracts now, but it's going to hurt them when they come up for renewal and a team that hasn't made the finals in 9 years is dropping them.

I had a sobering thought when I was watching the pregame the other night and they were talking about Chris Lawrence and Benji Marshall, he (Lawrence,) has played 15 seasons and only seen two finals campaigns. 250 games, and only 5 of those were finals games. It's a shame a player of his calibre was wasted. Same as Farah, 277 matches for Wests and only played 9 finals games, 4 of which were 2005 (obviously.) **As much as I hate the three, I'm starting to see why guys like Woods, Tedesco and Moses wanted out. I don't like the way they all did it, but they probably didn't want to be the next Rowdy.**

Understand exactly what you are saying, but those guys were getting paid the money to take us there and couldn't deliver. Had that core group of players stuck solid we could have been a long way ahead now and possibly been a regular finals contender. When they did what they did, they basically tore the footings out from under the house and all the bricks came tumbling down.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

One observation from last night - They looked really tired. Almost like they played an hour before and had to back up. I wonder how effective Madge is at the light and shade or whether he is just full throttle with training all week every week.

Maybe they got the stick for last weeks efforts.

Might seem counter intuitive but I'm for it. I feel like for years the players have been allowed to coast on through without repercussions. We've not made the finals for 8, soon to be 9, seasons. The players know they will walk on in next week to play and collect, so I'm not against the caning they might cop in training and the weekly droppings. They can enjoy their large contracts now, but it's going to hurt them when they come up for renewal and a team that hasn't made the finals in 9 years is dropping them.

I had a sobering thought when I was watching the pregame the other night and they were talking about Chris Lawrence and Benji Marshall, he (Lawrence,) has played 15 seasons and only seen two finals campaigns. 250 games, and only 5 of those were finals games. It's a shame a player of his calibre was wasted. Same as Farah, 277 matches for Wests and only played 9 finals games, 4 of which were 2005 (obviously.) **As much as I hate the three, I'm starting to see why guys like Woods, Tedesco and Moses wanted out. I don't like the way they all did it, but they probably didn't want to be the next Rowdy.**

Understand exactly what you are saying, but those guys were getting paid the money to take us there and couldn't deliver. Had that core group of players stuck solid we could have been a long way ahead now and possibly been a regular finals contender. When they did what they did, they basically tore the footings out from under the house and all the bricks came tumbling down.

Well you could argue Woods was in career best form with us, getting international and SOO reps and Teddy has always been a threatening player, he just looks better at Easts with so many more class players around him. Moses is the only player that I believe got better by going. Woods regressed and Tedesco did what he always did in a better team.

You could well be right in that if they had have stuck solid might have Ivan/Madge have been able to take them to the finals. We'll never know. Don't get me wrong I will always take the clubs side on that one as I did wish as you say that they would be the ones to take us there.

It hurt watching three well paid players, one of which was our star and the other our captain, all walk away and watch them enjoy success at other clubs. Even as a bench forward at the Sharps, Woods still saw a finals campaign. Moses is cruising at Parra and Teddy has won two premierships in two years. I do believe that they parachuted into success elsewhere rather than building it here, but I'm understanding as to why that may be now.

 

[Telltails]

We still need bigger bodies.....its gonna take time

Out muscled too many times this year. It's a glaring problem.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

JT came in and was asked to clear the team out to try and start fresh. That cost us a ton of juniors and really brilliant talented footy players.

Madge has to clean the side out, he however needs to clear deadwood with a junior gap & lacking the talent playing 1sts.

I think Madge will be given time but it’s not going to be easy. We have to rebuild and they always take years to achieve.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

He can’t coach

His two premierships disagree

Anyone could of won with that Souths team then players turned on him which our players are now doing train hard play half asleep

The Souths team that he built? Yeah he won a premiership with them. Also won a premiership in Wigan their first in decades. He knows how to make a premiership winning team unfortunately it’s a lot harder and slower a process here than at other clubs

He did a great job at Souths but I’m not sure he built them. Burgess and Inglis we’re already there. Nice base to start from.

Souths were nearly there when he arrived. They just needed a push.

What rubbish. Souths haven't won squat before or after Madge.

Souths failed to make the 8 under Madges final 2 seasons with them .
GNR is correct

I don't get it.

Quote was that Souths were "nearly there" when Madge arrived. I said that Souths haven't won anything before or since Madge was coach.

In the 4 seasons prior to Madge Souths finished 14th, 10th, 9th, 10th (2008-2011); two years with JT and two with Johnny Lang. Madge began in 2012, first year with him they finished 3rd. Following 3 years they made the finals including the 2014 premiership. Last two years 12th.

Before Madge Souths made the finals once since 1989 (JT in 2007). That's a Tiger-esque run of failure to play finals football. Since Madge became head coach they've only missed the finals twice in 8 seasons.

So if you have a club that makes the finals once in their first 10 years of the NRL era, wins 3 wooden spoons, then a new coach gets them to four consecutive finals in his first 4 years, including a premiership, I think that's a pretty straightforward argument to tell you what an impact he had at that club. You can point at the roster or whatever, but if a coach is responsible for the performances, that includes wins and losses. And if someone is arguing that the reason Madge was successful with Souths was because they already had a decent roster, again that argument fits for Tigers, because we don't have much of a roster, and I'd be keen to see what Madge could do with a better set of players.

The fact that Souths now feature regularly in finals football still reflects well on the coach that first made them a premiership threat. And not a Souths fan alive that doesn't respect and love what Madge achieved for the club.

Great post, I think it's looked at like they had Inglis and Sum there so they were a threat. No they weren't. They were a Wests Tigers in Cardinal and Myrtle. They seem to continue to unearth good kids and because of the successes of the Madge years they can land hot market players.

 

[TYGA]

We still need bigger bodies.....its gonna take time

Out muscled too many times this year. It's a glaring problem.

It’s the biggest problem. It’s being addressed slowly Luciano, Utoikamanu, BJ, Blore, McIntyre.
We need some hard veterans Tariq Sims, Brandon Smith, Nathan Brown types.

 

[jadtiger]

Nathan Brown types.

We should never have lost him.Seriously inept coaching/retention at the time is still costing us

 

[tiger_one]

SMH 09/08
Wests Tigers chairman Lee Hagipantelis says his heart aches for supporters of a club staring down the barrel of a decade without a semi-finals appearance and the joint venture’s roster can't be used as an excuse for under-achievement.
Barely three weeks since thumping Brisbane 48-0, the Tigers’ hopes of a long-awaited return to the NRL top eight look to be all but dashed following a third straight defeat
It was a terrible flop on an occasion when the team’s season was virtually on the line and club favourites Benji Marshall and Chris Lawrence were marking their 250th matches.
“My heart aches for those fans and members as I sit in front of the TV and watch a performance like [Saturday night] and just cannot rationalise it,” Hagipantelis said on Sunday. “I just do not understand where a performance like that comes from.
“As the chair I feel an obligation and a responsibility to our fans and members to provide them a product of which they can be proud. We would all have been bitterly disappointed with [Saturday] night’s effort. I don’t think there would be anyone that could say otherwise. There is no point in sugar-coating it.”
There was a further blow on Sunday when emerging playmaker Billy Walters was ruled out for the rest of the season with a serious knee injury.
The Tigers have a horror run over the final seven rounds of the shortened 20-game competition in which they face the top four sides – Penrith, Melbourne, Parramatta and the Roosters – as well as Souths and Manly. They will almost certainly have to win at least five of their remaining matches, starting with next Sunday’s clash with bottom-placed Canterbury at Bankwest Stadium, to make the finals.
They have not done so since 2011, the longest current streak away from the semis of any NRL club. That drought seems destined now to stretch for a full decade, the last two years on the watch of Michael Maguire.
The coach has tried shuffling key players like Marshall and Luke Brooks in and out of the side in an effort to find his best combination but the ploy hasn’t ultimately worked.
The Tigers lack the strength across their squad to challenge the best teams and there are also questions about the value for money provided by top earners like Joey Leilua and Moses Mbye, who has been played in several positions, most recently at hooker in place of the injured Harry Grant.
The chairman, however, is not interested in excuses.
“You often hear about transitioning and rotating of rosters and the like, but our fans and members don’t want to hear that anymore,” Hagipantelis said. “They want the roster that is there to perform as we all do, they want the administrators and the board to perform and they’re entitled to that expectation.
“We are all bitterly disappointed with the performances of late and we’ve all got to take a share of the responsibility for that.”
While club legend Marshall is yet to decide whether he will seek another season at the Tigers in 2021, **Maguire, remains very much in their plans beyond next year, when he is off contract.
“Michael has a vision for the club and shares our vision. So from our perspective we couldn’t be happier [with him],” the chairman said. “It’s publicly known that Michael is off contract at the end of next year and it would be remiss of us not to be considering 2022, ‘23 and beyond. Every option is on the table at the moment; every option is being considered by the board and we are absolutely committed to doing what is necessary to ensure the long-term success of the club.”**
Hagipantelis said he had contacted fullback Adam Doueihi, who was distraught after the heavy defeat to the Knights.
“He’s OK, but there are incredible pressures on these kids they have to deal with in a high-profile position,” he said. “They operate daily in the public eye.”

 

[jirskyr]

He can’t coach

His two premierships disagree

Anyone could of won with that Souths team then players turned on him which our players are now doing train hard play half asleep

The Souths team that he built? Yeah he won a premiership with them. Also won a premiership in Wigan their first in decades. He knows how to make a premiership winning team unfortunately it’s a lot harder and slower a process here than at other clubs

He did a great job at Souths but I’m not sure he built them. Burgess and Inglis we’re already there. Nice base to start from.

Souths were nearly there when he arrived. They just needed a push.

What rubbish. Souths haven't won squat before or after Madge.

Souths failed to make the 8 under Madges final 2 seasons with them .
GNR is correct

I don't get it.

Quote was that Souths were "nearly there" when Madge arrived. I said that Souths haven't won anything before or since Madge was coach.

In the 4 seasons prior to Madge Souths finished 14th, 10th, 9th, 10th (2008-2011); two years with JT and two with Johnny Lang. Madge began in 2012, first year with him they finished 3rd. Following 3 years they made the finals including the 2014 premiership. Last two years 12th.

Before Madge Souths made the finals once since 1989 (JT in 2007). That's a Tiger-esque run of failure to play finals football. Since Madge became head coach they've only missed the finals twice in 8 seasons.

So if you have a club that makes the finals once in their first 10 years of the NRL era, wins 3 wooden spoons, then a new coach gets them to four consecutive finals in his first 4 years, including a premiership, I think that's a pretty straightforward argument to tell you what an impact he had at that club. You can point at the roster or whatever, but if a coach is responsible for the performances, that includes wins and losses. And if someone is arguing that the reason Madge was successful with Souths was because they already had a decent roster, again that argument fits for Tigers, because we don't have much of a roster, and I'd be keen to see what Madge could do with a better set of players.

The fact that Souths now feature regularly in finals football still reflects well on the coach that first made them a premiership threat. And not a Souths fan alive that doesn't respect and love what Madge achieved for the club.

Great post, I think it's looked at like they had Inglis and Sum there so they were a threat. No they weren't. They were a Wests Tigers in Cardinal and Myrtle. They seem to continue to unearth good kids and because of the successes of the Madge years they can land hot market players.

And they have a heavyweight backer.

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone, the clubs that can get to the top and stay there have not just a stable coach and roster, but heavyweight backing either political or financial or both. Every other club has peaks and troughs, for example Penrith have a very strong Leagues club and some heavy-hitters like Gus Gould, but also they aren't always in finals contention either.

Souths have Rusty and Roosters have Politis, and that will always be an advantage for them that gives them some edge over other clubs. In Souths' case, I personally think they've peaked for now and missed their most recent premiership window 2018-2019, and their team is on the decline with a specific lack of forward power. However with Rusty Crowe they always have that extra element to attract players and obv Wayne Bennett still has pull as a coach, even if the game has passed him by somewhat.

If Tigers had a truly heavyweight backer who pumped money into the club for year after year, you'd see the change over time in the club's fortunes.

 

[Aesopian]

We still need bigger bodies.....its gonna take time

Out muscled too many times this year. It's a glaring problem.

It’s the biggest problem. It’s being addressed slowly Luciano, Utoikamanu, BJ, Blore, McIntyre.
We need some hard veterans Tariq Sims, ***Brandon Smith***, Nathan Brown types.

Brandon's my fav player to watch this year. King of the gutter rats, just scraps at everything. Beefed up version of Harry and has a kicking game

 

[jirskyr]

We still need bigger bodies.....its gonna take time

Out muscled too many times this year. It's a glaring problem.

It’s the biggest problem. It’s being addressed slowly Luciano, Utoikamanu, BJ, Blore, McIntyre.
We need some hard veterans Tariq Sims, ***Brandon Smith***, Nathan Brown types.

Brandon's my fav player to watch this year. King of the gutter rats, just scraps at everything. Beefed up version of Harry and has a kicking game

Watching his off-ball work, totally admirable. Chases every kick or run, provides a running option and loves running in traffic, I wouldn't even be surprised if he's one of those blokes that likes getting smashed and comes up laughing, makes him feel alive.

 

[Aesopian]

We still need bigger bodies.....its gonna take time

Out muscled too many times this year. It's a glaring problem.

It’s the biggest problem. It’s being addressed slowly Luciano, Utoikamanu, BJ, Blore, McIntyre.
We need some hard veterans Tariq Sims, ***Brandon Smith***, Nathan Brown types.

Brandon's my fav player to watch this year. King of the gutter rats, just scraps at everything. Beefed up version of Harry and has a kicking game

Watching his off-ball work, totally admirable. Chases every kick or run, provides a running option and loves running in traffic, I wouldn't even be surprised if he's one of those blokes that ***likes getting smashed and comes up laughing, makes him feel alive***.

My type of weirdo hahahahaha

 

[bbobb]

I recall the Dogs having a halves issue and Dessie had the forwards ball play through James Graham to great success (Grand Finalists). He had a problem and adapted.

Not the world's greatest example, Des being sacked within a few years and soundly blamed (rightly or not) for the spending quagmire the Dogs found themselves in, and haven't recovered from since.

That wasn’t the point of the example ??

 

[Geo]

HOOPER: "Madge's intense, drill sergeant style of approach is burning out the Wests Tigers playing group and the flogging against Newcastle should sound the alarm. He needs to find a little bit more bend in his rigid approach or the champion coach runs the risk of completely barbecuing the Tigers playing group."

 

[Geo]

Poor ukems

 

[The_Patriot]

If i was Maguire id do things a little differently.

Id rule a line through about half a dozen players who i dont think i can win with ie Brooks, Packer, Benji, Reynolds, Mybe and Jennings and tell them all they are no longer required. Id take the hit on the salary cap and do my best with whatever cheap buys i could get my hands on.

He will get nowhere with journeymen. Take the hit and stand for something, stand for players who can handle being told what to do and actually deliver. If this lot cant get it done then id rather burn a season building for the future.

Enough of these over priced contracts for players who cant deliver.

 

[Guest]

HOOPER: "Madge's intense, drill sergeant style of approach is burning out the Wests Tigers playing group and the flogging against Newcastle should sound the alarm. He needs to find a little bit more bend in his rigid approach or the champion coach runs the risk of completely barbecuing the Tigers playing group."

Hooper may be many things but I share the same concerns.