Alex Seyfarth #232

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

 

[JC99]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

It's not a coincidence he did the exact same injury on the exact same knee. Clearly wasn't ready to play again, sure it's a bit unlucky but with our season over and a game we were always losing why even bother playing him? Literally no point in him running out there, should've just let him recover and played it safe

 

[Snake]

Another off season he is going to kill it next season can feel it .. a great on field attitude!

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint. This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

 

[jirskyr]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

 

[hank37w]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

 

[Kelce68]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

Last I heard it was a lisfranc? But I can't confirm as the club haven't given a lot of updates.

Lisfranc's can be anything is terms of time frames, but up to and including 12 months. If that's indeed what he suffered earlier this year, then it's not surprising we haven't heard anything for a long time.

 

[Kelce68]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

Last I heard it was a lisfranc? But I can't confirm as the club haven't given a lot of updates.

Lisfranc's can be anything is terms of time frames, but up to and including 12 months. If that's indeed what he suffered earlier this year, then it's not surprising we haven't heard anything for a long time.

To confirm, from the club's official release mid - July, conservative treatment has been unsuccessful and he was due to undergo surgery mid august. Where that stands with COVID is anyone's guess as he remained in Sydney and orthopaedic surgeries are off the table (so to speak) atm.

It will then be a full rehab protocol from there, presuming it is a lisfranc after all.

 

[hank37w]

Thanks for that.
Was just consulting Dr Google to learn something about it.

 

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

I should rephrase, I mean it is not necessarily indicative. Meaning it may be the cause, but is not necessarily the cause. Particularly with a common mcl MOA, lateral impact. But yeh, these topics can be good fun to break down over a couple of beers.

 

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

I should rephrase, I mean it is not necessarily indicative. Meaning it may be the cause, but is not necessarily the cause. Particularly with a common mcl MOA, lateral impact. But yeh, these topics can be good **fun to break down over a couple of beers.**

What do you think I can do in my free time :nerd_face:

 

[tig_prmz]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

We are assuming this was a Grade 2 which as I mentioned requires at least 2 weeks in a brace. How much running, sprinting, change of direction, impact training and proprioception training do you think Alex had time to do within possibly 6 sessions with the team in 2-3 weeks?

Yes if you're a wonderful trainer, do night and day rehab- it may be possible. But I don't think he would have done more than 2 contact sessions with the team. Passing protocols is sometimes not that hard.

Again, the medical staff would have learnt from this and let's see how they handle the next major injury. Lids was rehabbed by Peter Moussa then Kenny and Gray. The high performance team and S&C team although must have done a great job since we've been very good with injuries this year.

Luck isn't a massive factor with injuries... not just soft tissues, even ligament injuries or impact injuries. There is a reason they happen usually late in the game when you're fatigued.

Anyway rant over, let's see how they manage the next one. Gray has had a bit of "grey" in him from his day at the Sharks from what I have heard though.

 

[Kelce68]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

We are assuming this was a Grade 2 which as I mentioned requires at least 2 weeks in a brace. How much running, sprinting, change of direction, impact training and proprioception training do you think Alex had time to do within possibly 6 sessions with the team in 2-3 weeks?

Yes if you're a wonderful trainer, do night and day rehab- it may be possible. But I don't think he would have done more than 2 contact sessions with the team. Passing protocols is sometimes not that hard.

Again, the medical staff would have learnt from this and let's see how they handle the next major injury. Lids was rehabbed by Peter Moussa then Kenny and Gray. The high performance team and S&C team although must have done a great job since we've been very good with injuries this year.

Luck isn't a massive factor with injuries... not just soft tissues, even ligament injuries or impact injuries. There is a reason they happen usually late in the game when you're fatigued.

Anyway rant over, let's see how they manage the next one. Gray has had a bit of "grey" in him from his day at the Sharks from what I have heard though.

It should also be noted that his reinjury came in the first 2 minutes of the second half, following the half-time break, so I think it would be a long bow to draw to argue that fatigue played a factor in this injury, particularly given Alex started from the bench and didn't get on until well after the 20 minute mark.

Whilst this issue is just about wrapped up discussion-wise, it should be noted, that Sunday's game represented 5 weeks to the day (24th July) that Seyfarth injured his MCL originally.

That is foreseeably plenty of time for return to play, **depending** on the nature of the Grade 2 and his progress of rehab. To sit out the final two games simply as a precaution is an option, but return to play protocols are in place for a reason. They are based on the literature. So if he meets those requirements and the season is still to be played out, him playing is 100% within normal, and importantly - responsible, protocols.

 

[TigerWest]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

We are assuming this was a Grade 2 which as I mentioned requires at least 2 weeks in a brace. How much running, sprinting, change of direction, impact training and proprioception training do you think Alex had time to do within possibly 6 sessions with the team in 2-3 weeks?

Yes if you're a wonderful trainer, do night and day rehab- it may be possible. But I don't think he would have done more than 2 contact sessions with the team. Passing protocols is sometimes not that hard.

Again, the medical staff would have learnt from this and let's see how they handle the next major injury. Lids was rehabbed by Peter Moussa then Kenny and Gray. The high performance team and S&C team although must have done a great job since we've been very good with injuries this year.

Luck isn't a massive factor with injuries... not just soft tissues, even ligament injuries or impact injuries. There is a reason they happen usually late in the game when you're fatigued.

Anyway rant over, let's see how they manage the next one. Gray has had a bit of "grey" in him from his day at the Sharks from what I have heard though.

It should also be noted that his reinjury came in the first 2 minutes of the second half, following the half-time break, so I think it would be a long bow to draw to argue that fatigue played a factor in this injury, particularly given Alex started from the bench and didn't get on until well after the 20 minute mark.

Whilst this issue is just about wrapped up discussion-wise, it should be noted, that Sunday's game represented 5 weeks to the day (24th July) that Seyfarth injured his MCL originally.

That is foreseeably plenty of time for return to play, **depending** on the nature of the Grade 2 and his progress of rehab. To sit out the final two games simply as a precaution is an option, but return to play protocols are in place for a reason. They are based on the literature. So if he meets those requirements and the season is still to be played out, him playing is 100% within normal, and importantly - responsible, protocols.

Good post, it’s worth remembering that he is in a professional sport, where many players carry injuries.

He’ll be back next year, all the better for this year.

 

[jirskyr]

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

You are confusing opinion and fact. Your opinion is it was rushed. You didn't assess the player, you weren't in on the consultations, you didn't see his rehab.

 

[tig_prmz]

It is. Even the medical department would agree.


You are confusing opinion and fact. Your opinion is it was rushed. You didn't assess the player, you weren't in on the consultations, you didn't see his rehab.

You're looking at procedure, I'm looking at end result as a fan.

You have to re-visit your procedure if the result was not right. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their RTP protocols following this.

 

[jirskyr]

It is. Even the medical department would agree.


You are confusing opinion and fact. Your opinion is it was rushed. You didn't assess the player, you weren't in on the consultations, you didn't see his rehab.

You're looking at procedure, I'm looking at end result as a fan.

You have to re-visit your procedure if the result was not right. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their RTP protocols following this.

What a whole lot of assumptions you are making from a great distance. Still an opinion though, not a fact.

 

[jirskyr]

Wests Tigers back-rower Alex Seyfarth has avoided any serious damage to the knee injury he only just returned from in round 24 but will miss the battle against Canterbury.

nrl.com

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Wests Tigers back-rower Alex Seyfarth has avoided any serious damage to the knee injury he only just returned from in round 24 but will miss the battle against Canterbury.

nrl.com

Good to hear no major aggrevation.

And also good to hear this guy seems hungry to wanted to play in what is a nothing game.

Wish we had more like him.