Close enough can no longer be good enough for a young Tigers team on the rise

[supercoach]

I reckon the class of the comp next year is going to be Melbourne, Canberra, Penrith.
Next level down will be Brisbane, Cronulla, the Roosters, maybe the Cowboys.

One or two of those might flop, but fundamentally the Tigers are - if they're lucky - in the mix of teams playing for 5th-8th. Parra, Souths, Manly, the Warriors, the Titans, the Bulldogs. You can make a case for any of these to be bad probably more easily than you can of them winning the comp.

There's only really the Knights and Dragons that I'm pretty confident of finishing above based on class.

I agree with your summation of next year, but as we know it very seldom pans out like we all expect. One thing we have going for us, is we are a team on the up and there are plenty of teams in the NRL who have probably hit the top of the hill and are on the slide down. One or two injuries to any of the teams in the NRL can bring your season undone.

On paper I see us very much where we ended up this year, but really it is all crystal ball stuff

 

[Tiger_Watto]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

 

[Geo]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

Tim's breakout Year…

 

[jirskyr]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

I disagree with this somewhat.

Whilst I don't necessarily think we are a team on the up, I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals which has normally broken even the more talented WT sides.

You look at someone like Canberra, they have a fairly average on/off finals history and have not managed to sustain their peak performances for multiple seasons. Last year everything clicked, but I would not say that player-for-player that they are a vastly more talented side than us. For example I feel Tedesco is miles ahead of Wighton, Moses has more upside than Austin, Woods is superior to Boyd. On the other hand, Hodgson has comfortably passed Farah, Leilua has gone to a level that Tim Simona has never achieved and Jordan Rapana is not the defensive liability that Nofoaluma can be. Raiders ran a last-game bench of Baptiste, Bateman, Vaughan and Tapine, which IMO is not vastly superior to Grant, Ava, Felise, Edwards.

What Stuart managed to do was get his team playing as a solid unit, with a straight-forward game plan of bashing sides out of the first 40 minutes. The quality defensive teams like Sharks and Melbourne that could withstand the onslaught were able to outlast the Raiders, whereas the tissue paper sides like Tigers were annihilated.

But don't tell me Sezer/Austin is the 2nd-best halves combo in the comp, or that Jack Wighton will ever play fullback for Australia barring some deep injury list.

I can absolutely see a 2017 possibility of Idris and Nofo forming a formidable right-side attacking combo outside Moses, Brooks finally finding his groove as a level-headed and reliable halfback, Jacob Liddle bringing a new brand of speed and directness to hooker, Tedesco reveling in the freedom of not being the solo attacking option of every backline play. These things are very possible.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks. The multi-year football dynasties are rare these days, probably barring recent Storm, Manly and Roosters sides that were based on an elite and generally home-raised spine of players. Every other year it's just about getting players up to their best, and as Matt Prior proved this year, it can happen for almost any player out there.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

 

[Nelson]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

I disagree with this somewhat.

Whilst I don't necessarily think we are a team on the up, I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals which has normally broken even the more talented WT sides.

You look at someone like Canberra, they have a fairly average on/off finals history and have not managed to sustain their peak performances for multiple seasons. Last year everything clicked, but I would not say that player-for-player that they are a vastly more talented side than us. For example I feel Tedesco is miles ahead of Wighton, Moses has more upside than Austin, Woods is superior to Boyd. On the other hand, Hodgson has comfortably passed Farah, Leilua has gone to a level that Tim Simona has never achieved and Jordan Rapana is not the defensive liability that Nofoaluma can be. Raiders ran a last-game bench of Baptiste, Bateman, Vaughan and Tapine, which IMO is not vastly superior to Grant, Ava, Felise, Edwards.

What Stuart managed to do was get his team playing as a solid unit, with a straight-forward game plan of bashing sides out of the first 40 minutes. The quality defensive teams like Sharks and Melbourne that could withstand the onslaught were able to outlast the Raiders, whereas the tissue paper sides like Tigers were annihilated.

But don't tell me Sezer/Austin is the 2nd-best halves combo in the comp, or that Jack Wighton will ever play fullback for Australia barring some deep injury list.

I can absolutely see a 2017 possibility of Idris and Nofo forming a formidable right-side attacking combo outside Moses, Brooks finally finding his groove as a level-headed and reliable halfback, Jacob Liddle bringing a new brand of speed and directness to hooker, Tedesco reveling in the freedom of not being the solo attacking option of every backline play. These things are very possible.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks. The multi-year football dynasties are rare these days, probably barring recent Storm, Manly and Roosters sides that were based on an elite and generally home-raised spine of players. Every other year it's just about getting players up to their best, and as Matt Prior proved this year, it can happen for almost any player out there.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

Yeah but look at the second row Canberra have got…plus don't underestimate the significance of them having a pair of big impact props in the form of Boyd and Junior Paulo that can really get them rolling forward. I think they lap us in the forwards...

 

[jirskyr]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

I disagree with this somewhat.

Whilst I don't necessarily think we are a team on the up, I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals which has normally broken even the more talented WT sides.

You look at someone like Canberra, they have a fairly average on/off finals history and have not managed to sustain their peak performances for multiple seasons. Last year everything clicked, but I would not say that player-for-player that they are a vastly more talented side than us. For example I feel Tedesco is miles ahead of Wighton, Moses has more upside than Austin, Woods is superior to Boyd. On the other hand, Hodgson has comfortably passed Farah, Leilua has gone to a level that Tim Simona has never achieved and Jordan Rapana is not the defensive liability that Nofoaluma can be. Raiders ran a last-game bench of Baptiste, Bateman, Vaughan and Tapine, which IMO is not vastly superior to Grant, Ava, Felise, Edwards.

What Stuart managed to do was get his team playing as a solid unit, with a straight-forward game plan of bashing sides out of the first 40 minutes. The quality defensive teams like Sharks and Melbourne that could withstand the onslaught were able to outlast the Raiders, whereas the tissue paper sides like Tigers were annihilated.

But don't tell me Sezer/Austin is the 2nd-best halves combo in the comp, or that Jack Wighton will ever play fullback for Australia barring some deep injury list.

I can absolutely see a 2017 possibility of Idris and Nofo forming a formidable right-side attacking combo outside Moses, Brooks finally finding his groove as a level-headed and reliable halfback, Jacob Liddle bringing a new brand of speed and directness to hooker, Tedesco reveling in the freedom of not being the solo attacking option of every backline play. These things are very possible.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks. The multi-year football dynasties are rare these days, probably barring recent Storm, Manly and Roosters sides that were based on an elite and generally home-raised spine of players. Every other year it's just about getting players up to their best, and as Matt Prior proved this year, it can happen for almost any player out there.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

Yeah but look at the second row Canberra have got…plus don't underestimate the significance of them having a pair of big impact props in the form of Boyd and Junior Paulo that can really get them rolling forward. I think they lap us in the forwards...

Yes but that is the 2016 version you are talking about. Would you have said the same thing about Boyd and Paulo 2 or 3 seasons ago?

My point is Stuart got the Raiders clicking, and honestly he's not the coach with the best reputation over the last 10 years. He got great mileage out of Soliola, got Boyd to lift a gear, jagged Paulo mid-season from the Eels disaster. Papalii is quality and they did very well with Hodgson and Whitehead from the UK, very astute.

But honestly leading into 2016 Papalii was the only tried-and-tested rep-quality forward they had. And leading into 2017 picking up Dave Taylor, Ricky has gone balls-deep for size over any other factor. That may work for him again 2017, or the game might get subtly faster and his team will have missed the boat. Dogs went all-in for huge ball-playing forwards 3-4 years ago and that no longer works as the team has aged, the hooker left and the workhorse impact from Tolman and Graham has declined.

IMO when you look at Leilua and Rapana - that is the best attacking threat in the comp right now. But Leilua was borderline scrapheap after 3 middling years at Newcastle and a fraction of a 2015 with the Raiders. Between 2008-2015 Rapana played 27 first grade games and is now in the Kiwis side.

It is realised potential, something Tigers have not had since 2010-11.

 

[stevetiger]

I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals

I agree. We have a team that can win games consistently. So do other teams but we aren't pretenders based on our roster.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks.

I agree but the players have to do it as well. Moses in particular looked like a world beater last year but fell apart in the big games. Brooks didn't get to that level at all.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

Defence is important but it's far from the only thing. It's about playing well in both aspects of the game. The defence is all that matters mantra doesn't work. The recent stats on here proved that. It can be even worse that that because if you only focus on defence it can lead to gifting the opposition easy games. We can't do that.

We have the squad to compete. It's up to the coaching staff to give them winning game plans and some structures and then it's up to the players to perform.

With the talent that we have there is no reason we can't have a really good season.

 

[jirskyr]

Defence is important but it's far from the only thing. It's about playing well in both aspects of the game. The defence is all that matters mantra doesn't work. The recent stats on here proved that. It can be even worse that that because if you only focus on defence it can lead to gifting the opposition easy games. We can't do that.

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Tell me, was it a focus on defence that gifted those two floggings to Canberra this year?

There were old Tigers (WT and Balmain) teams that had no attacking flair but could defend like stone walls. Hell they'd lose half their games because they had nothing to offer with the football (except maybe Bubba Kennedy ducking under the odd tackle) and there was no money to buy anyone decent. But man those sides would always be there for 80 mins in the scrap, the muck, the ugly. It didn't rate on telly and the team had no rep players, but I miss the days when the Tigers weren't this show-pony attack-oriented team of faders who float in and out of games all season.

Attack steve has not been an issue for the Tigers for some 13 seasons; it hasn't been lack of attacking options, the Hodgos, Farahs, early Lawrences, Tuqiris, Tuiakis, Princes, Benjis, Richards, Moses-es, Tedescos that has let us down. It's the lack of Benny Galeas that let us down, Gareth Ellises… the guys who nailed the opposition, made lovely cover tackles and put the shoulder in for 80 mins. Ben Galea misses that particular tackle on Bowen in 2005 and very nearly Tigers don't walk away with the trophy.

Defence is more important than attack in the current trend of rugby league, and for a poor defensive side like WT, it's even more important.

 

[stevetiger]

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Tell me, was it a focus on defence that gifted those two floggings to Canberra this year?

No it wasn't. We came 2nd last and had probably our worst season ever though due to a focus on defence.

There were old Tigers (WT and Balmain) teams that had no attacking flair but could defend like stone walls. Hell they'd lose half their games because they had nothing to offer with the football (except maybe Bubba Kennedy ducking under the odd tackle) and there was no money to buy anyone decent. But man those sides would always be there for 80 mins in the scrap, the muck, the ugly. It didn't rate on telly and the team had no rep players, but I miss the days when the Tigers weren't this show-pony attack-oriented team of faders who float in and out of games all season.

I remember the good times. We lose a lot of games didn't we.

Attack steve has not been an issue for the Tigers for some 13 seasons; it hasn't been lack of attacking options, the Hodgos, Farahs, early Lawrences, Tuqiris, Tuiakis, Princes, Benjis, Richards, Moses-es, Tedescos that has let us down. It's the lack of Benny Galeas that let us down, Gareth Ellises… the guys who nailed the opposition, made lovely cover tackles and put the shoulder in for 80 mins. Ben Galea misses that particular tackle on Bowen in 2005 and very nearly Tigers don't walk away with the trophy.

Defence is more important than attack in the current trend of rugby league, and for a poor defensive side like WT, it's even more important.

It's actually not. You need to have a good attack as well. You can't just expect defence to win you games. You need to take the right options in attack. You can't be too defensive when you have the ball and you can't just throw the ball away.

I know that there are a bunch of people that want simplistic ways to win games but that isn't how it works in the real world.

 

[Nelson]

Yes but that is the 2016 version you are talking about. Would you have said the same thing about Boyd and Paulo 2 or 3 seasons ago?

My point is Stuart got the Raiders clicking, and honestly he's not the coach with the best reputation over the last 10 years. He got great mileage out of Soliola, got Boyd to lift a gear, jagged Paulo mid-season from the Eels disaster. Papalii is quality and they did very well with Hodgson and Whitehead from the UK, very astute.

But honestly leading into 2016 Papalii was the only tried-and-tested rep-quality forward they had. And leading into 2017 picking up Dave Taylor, Ricky has gone balls-deep for size over any other factor. That may work for him again 2017, or the game might get subtly faster and his team will have missed the boat. Dogs went all-in for huge ball-playing forwards 3-4 years ago and that no longer works as the team has aged, the hooker left and the workhorse impact from Tolman and Graham has declined.

IMO when you look at Leilua and Rapana - that is the best attacking threat in the comp right now. But Leilua was borderline scrapheap after 3 middling years at Newcastle and a fraction of a 2015 with the Raiders. Between 2008-2015 Rapana played 27 first grade games and is now in the Kiwis side.

It is realised potential, something Tigers have not had since 2010-11.

Paulo looked the goods as soon as he started playing first grade but yeah, Boyd looked far inferior to Vaughn coming into this season and is now playing for Australia. Soliola went backwards in 2016 due to injury, he was arguably their best forward in 2015\. Whitehead was a fantastic signing for them and I think we should look to emulate that by targeting someone like Currie or Bateman in the future.

Yes Rapana and Leilua came from nowhere to be the most dangerous pairing in the comp and Stuart deserves some credit for that (ugh it pains me to say that).

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Stuart deserves every credit for Canberra… It wasn't the individual players that made the difference, it was the 90's structure & platform they played off that saw them make the Top 4.

Personally, they let in too many points to go as far as they did but sometimes you get lucky

 

[jirskyr]

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Both sides of the game!? Great Odin's raven, wonders never cease! I need to take notes for my Kingsgrove Colts U7s D side.

I'm sorry, but the steadfast and indefatigable nature of your commentary leads me to one of two conclusions: either you are a very persistant and self-amused troll, or you are that drunk guy at the bar who doesn't realise everyone is laughing AT him rather than WITH him.

Debating with you is truly Sisyphean; I am driven to farce.

 

[Geo]

2nd one…

 

[Tiger_Watto]

2nd one…

Mind your own business old fella

 

[innsaneink]

Its seems pretty fair and makes sence, but the one thing that sticks out to me is 'we failed again'.

My biggest concern is where does the improvement come from?

How can Teddy & Moses improve in 2017?
Does ET improve in 2017 or does he remain the same consistent forward he was in 16?
Will Woods become a super-prop freak to get us more in the middle?

We already know what these people can do. What around them is going to change in 2017 to change the one consistent we have had for 5 years - 'we failed again'?!

Defense

It MUST change

 

[stevetiger]

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Both sides of the game!? Great Odin's raven, wonders never cease! I need to take notes for my Kingsgrove Colts U7s D side.

I'm sorry, but the steadfast and indefatigable nature of your commentary leads me to one of two conclusions: either you are a very persistant and self-amused troll, or you are that drunk guy at the bar who doesn't realise everyone is laughing AT him rather than WITH him.

Debating with you is truly Sisyphean; I am driven to farce.

I honestly don't get it. You say something that is obviously false and then you go and cry over it when I point out it isn't true.

You need to grow up a lot.

 

[jirskyr]

I honestly don't get it.

\

I honestly don't get it.

\

I honestly don't get it.

\

I honestly don't get it.

\

I honestly don't get it.

I'm done.

 

[stevetiger]

^^^
Honestly - do you need help. That is just plain weird.

 

[NT_Tiger]

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Both sides of the game!? Great Odin's raven, wonders never cease! I need to take notes for my Kingsgrove Colts U7s D side.

I'm sorry, but the steadfast and indefatigable nature of your commentary leads me to one of two conclusions: either you are a very persistant and self-amused troll, or you are that drunk guy at the bar who doesn't realise everyone is laughing AT him rather than WITH him.

Debating with you is truly Sisyphean; I am driven to farce.

Sisyphean, that's a new one for me. I learned something there.
I offer my post from another thread; As with quicksand and lawyer vines, the more you try to respond to the situation the more trapped you become. In his little quagmire, the best response is no response.

 

[jirskyr]

Are you for real? Rugby league is about playing well in both aspects of the game? Thanks for the tip slick.

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Both sides of the game!? Great Odin's raven, wonders never cease! I need to take notes for my Kingsgrove Colts U7s D side.

I'm sorry, but the steadfast and indefatigable nature of your commentary leads me to one of two conclusions: either you are a very persistant and self-amused troll, or you are that drunk guy at the bar who doesn't realise everyone is laughing AT him rather than WITH him.

Debating with you is truly Sisyphean; I am driven to farce.

Sisyphean, that's a new one for me. I learned something there.
I offer my post from another thread; As with quicksand and lawyer vines, the more you try to respond to the situation the more trapped you become. In his little quagmire, the best response is no response.

If it wasn't the offseason it would be much easier to pass by. I miss the discussion, not much going on right now, so I engage.