Close enough can no longer be good enough for a young Tigers team on the rise

[NT_Tiger]

Yep it is. If you don't know what you are talking about you might actually think that all that matters is defence but you need to play both sides on the game.

Both sides of the game!? Great Odin's raven, wonders never cease! I need to take notes for my Kingsgrove Colts U7s D side.

I'm sorry, but the steadfast and indefatigable nature of your commentary leads me to one of two conclusions: either you are a very persistant and self-amused troll, or you are that drunk guy at the bar who doesn't realise everyone is laughing AT him rather than WITH him.

Debating with you is truly Sisyphean; I am driven to farce.

Sisyphean, that's a new one for me. I learned something there.
I offer my post from another thread; As with quicksand and lawyer vines, the more you try to respond to the situation the more trapped you become. In his little quagmire, the best response is no response.

If it wasn't the offseason it would be much easier to pass by. I miss the discussion, not much going on right now, so I engage.

Yeah Fair enough. I imagine some just enjoy the thrust and parry. I just got bored with it.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

It's actually not. You need to have a good attack as well. **You can't just expect defence to win you games.** You need to take the right options in attack. You can't be too defensive when you have the ball and you can't just throw the ball away.

I know that there are a bunch of people that want simplistic ways to win games but that isn't how it works in the real world.

Actually, yeah you can. The less points you leak, the less points you need to score.

 

[supercoach]

This attack/ defence argument has been going on for years on this forum. I have said it before, your defence sets the platform for you to attack off. Great defence gives you field position it also gives you possession from turnovers. Of course you need to be able to score points, but you will win more games when your defence is very strong and your attack is average than visa versa. Listen to any coach in the NRL and they all talk about defence

 

[matchball]

This attack/ defence argument has been going on for years on this forum. I have said it before, your defence sets the platform for you to attack off. Great defence gives you field position it also gives you possession from turnovers. Of course you need to be able to score points, but you will win more games when your defence is very strong and your attack is average than visa versa. Listen to any coach in the NRL and they all talk about defence

Exactly.
We score enough points to win most games. We just leak too many.
So many games we score 20 points or more and lose.
It's been our problem since the birth of wests tigers.

 

[tiger_one]

Off season speculation is the game we can all play, and none of us lose!

However, during the course of any footy season, there's 2 comps : the first over 26 rounds and the second which we call the finals.
Therein lies the problem - called: minimizing injuries, keeping your best players on the field week in, week out, no off field dramas that cause distractions, fair calls by the game officials - nothing too much!!!

 

[stryker]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

I disagree with this somewhat.

Whilst I don't necessarily think we are a team on the up, I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals which has normally broken even the more talented WT sides.

You look at someone like Canberra, they have a fairly average on/off finals history and have not managed to sustain their peak performances for multiple seasons. Last year everything clicked, but I would not say that player-for-player that they are a vastly more talented side than us. For example I feel Tedesco is miles ahead of Wighton, Moses has more upside than Austin, Woods is superior to Boyd. On the other hand, Hodgson has comfortably passed Farah, Leilua has gone to a level that Tim Simona has never achieved and Jordan Rapana is not the defensive liability that Nofoaluma can be. Raiders ran a last-game bench of Baptiste, Bateman, Vaughan and Tapine, which IMO is not vastly superior to Grant, Ava, Felise, Edwards.

What Stuart managed to do was get his team playing as a solid unit, with a straight-forward game plan of bashing sides out of the first 40 minutes. The quality defensive teams like Sharks and Melbourne that could withstand the onslaught were able to outlast the Raiders, whereas the tissue paper sides like Tigers were annihilated.

But don't tell me Sezer/Austin is the 2nd-best halves combo in the comp, or that Jack Wighton will ever play fullback for Australia barring some deep injury list.

I can absolutely see a 2017 possibility of Idris and Nofo forming a formidable right-side attacking combo outside Moses, Brooks finally finding his groove as a level-headed and reliable halfback, Jacob Liddle bringing a new brand of speed and directness to hooker, Tedesco reveling in the freedom of not being the solo attacking option of every backline play. These things are very possible.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks. The multi-year football dynasties are rare these days, probably barring recent Storm, Manly and Roosters sides that were based on an elite and generally home-raised spine of players. Every other year it's just about getting players up to their best, and as Matt Prior proved this year, it can happen for almost any player out there.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

Canberras squad eats ours alive…what are you on about?

 

[jirskyr]

I'm not convinced we are a team on the up. I look at the performance of our best players and am not too sure they will improve much more, plus the likes of Sue, Ava & Lawrence look to have peaked at the level they will maintain being competitive at NRL level.

Yes we can improve on consistency and that might see us stumble into the top 8, but I don't believe we will be a better team in 2017 without making changes in the Forwards & Centres.

The only changes that look real is improvement in Alaioa, Felise & Liddle, plus the hope Idris will get off the KFC and find his mojo. Oh, and then there is hope other teams will go backwards.

I disagree with this somewhat.

Whilst I don't necessarily think we are a team on the up, I think we do have the basics of what could be a very good team. The issue is getting the entire team to play towards their peak and cohesively for a significant part of the season, particularly the run into the finals which has normally broken even the more talented WT sides.

You look at someone like Canberra, they have a fairly average on/off finals history and have not managed to sustain their peak performances for multiple seasons. Last year everything clicked, but I would not say that player-for-player that they are a vastly more talented side than us. For example I feel Tedesco is miles ahead of Wighton, Moses has more upside than Austin, Woods is superior to Boyd. On the other hand, Hodgson has comfortably passed Farah, Leilua has gone to a level that Tim Simona has never achieved and Jordan Rapana is not the defensive liability that Nofoaluma can be. Raiders ran a last-game bench of Baptiste, Bateman, Vaughan and Tapine, which IMO is not vastly superior to Grant, Ava, Felise, Edwards.

What Stuart managed to do was get his team playing as a solid unit, with a straight-forward game plan of bashing sides out of the first 40 minutes. The quality defensive teams like Sharks and Melbourne that could withstand the onslaught were able to outlast the Raiders, whereas the tissue paper sides like Tigers were annihilated.

But don't tell me Sezer/Austin is the 2nd-best halves combo in the comp, or that Jack Wighton will ever play fullback for Australia barring some deep injury list.

I can absolutely see a 2017 possibility of Idris and Nofo forming a formidable right-side attacking combo outside Moses, Brooks finally finding his groove as a level-headed and reliable halfback, Jacob Liddle bringing a new brand of speed and directness to hooker, Tedesco reveling in the freedom of not being the solo attacking option of every backline play. These things are very possible.

It's just about the coach finding the right ingredients to bring the best out of his team most weeks. The multi-year football dynasties are rare these days, probably barring recent Storm, Manly and Roosters sides that were based on an elite and generally home-raised spine of players. Every other year it's just about getting players up to their best, and as Matt Prior proved this year, it can happen for almost any player out there.

Personally I think it starts with defence, and until we can get the defensive grind right most weeks, regardless of injury in key positions, we are going to leak points in important games. Broncos, Storm, Sharks, Cowboys all defended their way to the Top 6 this year. Raiders and Panthers were arguably the attack-focused teams of 2016 and neither got terrific finals penetration because they were outlasted by more professional and better clutch-moment sides (well Panthers got rolled by a bigger version of themselves).

Canberras squad eats ours alive…what are you on about?

It does in 2016\. In 2015 they finished 10th and we beat them once in the back of the season. In 2014 15th.

I believe it's not just the squad, it's the evolution of that squad over the past 12 months.

 

[supercoach]

I agree with a few others who have some major doubts on our roster. We have some young kids who will improve and could be anything, but we also have a lot who probably have hit their peak and their peak is not a high one. Of course could be wrong but the way I see it without the injection of at least two real class players we are going to struggle to make the next step

 

[ricksen]

#teamjirskyr on this one
We need that improvement from within - it's what management have gambled on with the half-hearted rebuild. Whether or not it will actually happen is another thing, but the Canberra example is a good one. Need some of the current guys to really kick on and complement that improvement with one or two external additions.
I think we've got the potential to make that leap, as long as we get the edge forwards sorted, as that's a glaring weakness in the squad at present.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

It does in 2016\. In 2015 they finished 10th and we beat them once in the back of the season. In 2014 15th.

I believe it's not just the squad, it's the evolution of that squad over the past 12 months.

When we beat Cowgirls, Donkeys etc is was 'they had a bad day' but did we play our best games against ACT-ers? :crazy

 

[Guest]

The Tigers cannot use their youth as an excuse in 2017
29 MINUTES AGO NOVEMBER 9, 2016

THE Tigers have lived on potential for some time.
For years they’ve been blooding youngsters and people have talked about how great they can be in the future.
Well the future is now and there can be no more waiting. We take a look at the five things the Tigers need to work out in the latest instalment of our Summer School series.

What does the club have with Jamal Idris?
Jamal Idris struggled for motivation during his first stint in the NRL from 2008 to 2015 but when he got things right he was a very dangerous man.
The size of a house with fearsome power at his disposal in both attack and defence, when Idris was fit he was a serious weapon.
Even in his last year with Penrith, where he played just six matches before a knee injury cut him down, he was in good touch and scored four tries in his early season cameo.
It might be questionable to expect too much from Idris given he hasn’t played serious football in 18 months but if he’s motivated and fit he could be an excellent purchase for the joint venture.

Can Luke Brooks be the player they need him to be?
Mitchell Moses’s stock went up last season while Luke Brooks experienced something of a downturn.
Brooks had been regarded as the better prospect of the duo but Moses reached a level in 2016 that Brooks has yet to match, even though Moses was flying solo for large swathes of the season after Brooks was troubled by a litany of injuries.
Next year will be Brooks’ fourth season in first grade and if he’s to become the player the Tigers have always though he could be he needs to show the same kind of production Moses did last year.

How much does Matt Ballin have left?
The battle is over, the war is won and Robbie Farah is out the door.
Jason Taylor persisted with Dene Halatau at hooker for the back half of last season and was prepared to let Mania Cherrington walk, so for 2017 he has Matt Ballin, Matt McIlwrick and Jacob Liddle as his dummy-half choices.
Taylor has indicated that Ballin will start the year at hooker with Liddle on the bench and McIlwrick in reserve grade, but how many miles does Ballin have left? The former Manly man has a huge amount of miles under his belt — 2016 was the first season since 2007 where he played less than 20 matches in a year.
He managed just two matches last year after a litany of niggling injuries but Taylor is clearly hesitant to throw the talented Liddle into the deep end. For the Tigers to ease Liddle’s transition to first grade they need Ballin to saddle up at least one more time.

Can they strengthen their defence?
Scoring points is not a problem for the Tigers. With Moses, Brooks and Tedesco feeding the likes of Naiqama and Nofoaluma, crossing the try line is the easy part. But the Tigers defence is bad and it has been for some time.
They conceded 607 points last year with only the poor Newcastle Knights letting in more. In two matches against Canberra they were outscored 112-10 with the second of those games coming in the last round with a finals berth on the line.
Taylor’s defence was his strength during his time at Parramatta and the Rabbitohs but he’s yet to bring that same zeal to the joint venture.
For the Tigers to make the finals they don’t need to defend as well as the Storm but they do need to lift their game, especially in the middle of the field.

Will the Tigers finally make the leap?
The Tigers have been a team in transition since their last trip to the finals in 2011 and after a fair few tough choices, they finally have a team that is capable of challenging for the playoffs again.
James Tedesco might be the best fullback in the world, Moses made great strides last season, Aaron Woods continues to thrive and they have the attacking ability to gun down the best teams in the competition when they’re on.
Taylor’s third season in charge shapes as a pivotal one for the club — close enough is no longer good enough.
No more waiting, no more rebuilds, no more next year, no more promising talent, its time for the Tigers to start being the team everyone says they can be.

Predicted team for Round 1 2017
1\. James Tedesco 2\. Kevin Naiqama 3\. Tim Simona 4\. Jamal Idris 5\. David Nofoaluma 6\. Mitchell Moses 7\. Luke Brooks 8\. Aaron Woods 9\. Matt Ballin 10\. Sauaso Sue 11\. Josh Aloiai 12\. Chris Lawrence 13\. Elijah Taylor 14\. Ava Seumanufagai 15\. Jacob Liddle 16\. Tim Grant 17\. Joel Edwards

Kevin Naiqama has reportedly been linked with a move to Super League which would be a real loss for the Tigers. Naiqama’s defence at centre can be spotty but he’s got express pace, wonderful hands and the ability to be a real threat in attack.
A move back to the wing would suit him and would give the Tigers one of the strongest kick returning trios in the competition.
If he does move on, look for Jordan Rankin to replace him. Edwards may lose his bench spot to Kyle Lovett — we’ve taken a punt on Edwards due to his ability to hold his own both in the middle and on the edge.