I’m having difficulty in understanding social distancing rules? It seems ok to stand in a queue to vote but a funeral must be limited to 10 mourners. It seems ok for hairdressers to continue to work, but beaches must be closed because the bathers are getting too close?
Has this pandemic shown us how ineffective our political system is ? Or are we just lacking leadership? I can understand why we need to take advice from WHO , but we always seem to be behind the pace? Russia closed its borders, and started contact tracing, in January. I’m not suggesting Russia is a model to follow or a country I would like to live in , merely pointing to decisive leadership.
Not having a go at you, nor am I necessarily defending the Govt or leadership, but what exactly do you think they should do? Are you suggesting a full lockdown?
Seems that most people are screaming that the Govt "should do more!!!" but I think it seems to be a lot of people who would not vote Libs in any situation.
Personally, I dont want the Govt to do more, or do less. I want them to take the advice of ALL the experts available to them to chart a course that navigates the tricky path of minimising deaths, ensuring our health system is not overwhelmed yet maintaining the maximum economic heartbeat possible.
Of course the natural reaction is to think to stop everything, shut down everything in total lockdown, and it may come to that and be necessary if it looks like it will overwhelm the health system, and Id be all for it in those circumstances, but if it is possible to reduce the rate of spread to a point that the health system can cope, yet keep as much of the economy running, then for me that is the best path.
This may seem callous for want of a better word, but when this is over, we are going to need to climb out of it and the depth of the decline economically will have a massive impact on many peoples lives for years to come and it will be the lower socioeconomic levels hit hardest. Rich people with assets will make it through.
The natural reaction is always 1 death is too many, but we average 4500 deaths a year for influenza and we dont shut down the economy to save those deaths. I am NOT suggeting this is the same as the flu, its not and if we did nothing there would be more than 10 x that number dead, but there does need to be a balance between possibility of deaths and possibility of economic depression.
5150, I’m not having a go at you either and I’m not wanting to get into a any pee high club discussion.
Just pointing out my observation that we always appear to be a country which follows, rather than one which gets on the front foot instinctively and decisively does what’s best for Australia and it’s citizens. There was a time when citizenship meant something. Anyway, cheer on your club if you like, but it doesn’t explain the failings in our political system.
Here’s an example..
https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/6698458/hairdressers-call-for-clear-messaging-directive-to-close-from-government/
Mate I dont necessarily disagree with you and I am **definitely** not wanting to get into a club discussion, in fact I dont actually feel like I have a club in this discussion, definitely not one Im cheering on.
Part of what prompted me to respond to your post was listening to discussions about what is going on in the UK. Their strategy is a bit different to what is going on in Italy & US and to a great extent appears to be a lot more successful. Their strategy is not based on auto lock down but involves lock down when required.
Im not sure what you are specifically referring to when you say the Govt which follows, particularly when we were the second country to shut borders to China, Iran & Italy. It is entirely possible that the strategy that the Aus Govt is following, on the advice of their experts, is entirely intentional and what is happening is EXACTLY what they are trying to do, but merely is different to the instinctive reaction of the general population, who aren't aware of the advice they are getting from the expertise.
Obviously not everyone is listening to the same experts.
I don’t have a problem with the governments staggered approach, although the downside is they need to wait 14 days to see what’s working. It was usually the approach I’ve taken, whether in business or with my health. If we follow the Shorten / Albo approach which is ‘throw the kitchen sink at it and hope for the best, then if it doesn’t work it’s harder to find out why. Or if it does work we can only speculate which remedy was more effective. I don’t know if the enormity of our problem is registering with some. I’ve heard from Doc the damage the virus causes to the lungs is irreparable.
It is hard to argue with the measures so far when the data is starting to turn for us, we know have to see if we need to make more restrictions to get it turn enough!
I was not going to post this for a few days to see how it panned out, but what you are saying correlates well with it. Four days ago the exponential rate of growth dropped markedly from a steady 1.23 - 1.25 down to 1.13. But since then it seems to have instantly found a new steady level with four days 1.13, 1.15, 1.13, 1.14. Hoping it drops again but if it stays there, more measures might be needed.
Well a couple of people wanted an update so here we are.....
Yesterday there was a significant dip in the exponential growth multiplier. It dipped down from a steady 1.3 for a few days, down below 1.1 to 1.09. This is pretty significant as it may be the second round of restrictions washing through. For those playing along at home, to be steady at 1.1 we need less that 4382 cases by the end of today.
This is obviously encouraging as slowing it down is obviously a good thing, but how does this end? At what point do we start thinking about re-opening the economy (Im not suggesting soon)?
I could imagine a scenario where parts of the local economy are reopened, but with disasters all over the world (US and parts of Europe), once its under control here I can see our borders closed for a LONG time.
Ok so something is definitely happening and so far it looks good. Another big dip yesterday in the exponential growth multiplier . It was steady at 1.23 for weeks, then spent four days at 1.13 and has spent the last two days going down. 1.09 Sunday and 1.06 yesterday.
Its very encouraging and shows that the restrictions and changes in behaviour are working. I have a couple of worries. People are behaving better, but not perfectly (we are Aussies) and I dont think we can get that multiplier down to 1 based on restrictions alone, so what does that mean? We get to a low multiplier (growth rate) and stay indoors?
I also worry that if we get teh growth rate low enough people will say "screw this" and go back to normal life and rates will bounce back up.
Anyway, so far so good. For those playing along, to keep it at 1.06 we need to keep the total to under 4523. At the time of posting (9:30) it was already 4364.
Another update. Yesterday stayed pretty steady with exponential multiplier of 1.06. I can see some merit in Mikes comment about reduced testing however. TO stay steady at 1.06 we need todays cases to stay below 4830. We are at 4711 already at 9am.
Todays update. Yesterday was steady, very steady unfortunately. After an encouraging dip in the exponential multiplier, we have now had three days steady at 1.06.
Hoping the stricter measures start to wash through and we are not stuck here.
Need to keep total cases under 5150 today.
Todays update.
A slight dip again yesterday. After three days at 1.06, the exponential multiplier dipped slightly to 1.05. Hopefully continues down but we might be getting to the point of diminishing returns. To maintain 1.05 growth or less, we need todays total to stay under 5400.
Had a thought this morning when considering someone else pointing out that new cases seem to be almost staying under 300 a day and this being a good thing. I agree that relative to what could be it is a reasonable result, but at current death rates, that would still 3-4 deaths a day (delayed by 20 days).
Update for Friday 03/04/20
Another encouraging dip in the exponential multiplier. Dropped down from 1.056 to 1.041. Very encouraging. To maintain 1.04 we need the total cases to remain under 5570 today. at 10am they are still at last nights total 5350.
Saturdays Update
Another encouraging dip. THe exponential multiplier dropped under 1.04 to 1.037. To keep it this low we need to stay under 5757 total cases today.
I'd like to briefly derail this NSW Health & Border Force discussion with some boring numbers.
The trajectory continued downwards yesterday. The exponential multiplier dipped lower than Saturdays 1.037 to 1.024 which is very encouraging. Only 137 new cases (still equals 1-2 deaths in 2 weeks) . Clearly the measures are working. Fingers crossed there is no reversal. I hope Aussies being Aussies we dont revert to close enough and start to get out and about for a while. To stay at this low point, we need the total cases to stay below 5827 today.
Personally I'd love to see the multiplier get to 1, stick at it for 3-4 weeks then open everything but the borders back up.
Todays update. This seems too good to be true. Yesterday the exponential multiplier dropped again under 1.02 to 1.018. To maintain this we need to stay under 5905 today.
Todays update, after yesterdays optimism, a bit of reality.
The exponential multiplier stayed steady at 1.019. Its not a bad result and its relatively low, but Im hopeful for the sake of opening things up again that we can get it way lower. I want the total cases number to stay under 6000 today.
Well it seems we have hit a plateau. After a few days with solid drops in the exponential multiplier, down to a reasonably low level, we have now had three days of very steady levels of 1.018, 1.019 and yesterday 1.017. When this started I said it was unnerving how predictable it was every day when it was around 1.23 and again now for three days Ive been able to predict within 10 the total cases at the end of the day. The rate is relatively low, but for any chance of an exit I think we need it to drop more, at least below 1.01.
To maintain yesterdays rate, we need the total to stay under 6119 today. Personally I'd love it to stay at least under 6112 because that would be the first day with under 100 new cases for a long time.
Again for comparison, if we didnt drop the rate from 1.23, we would have had 62413 cases yesterday.
Todays update. Remember I said it was getting predictable again, with expected number to be 6112 - 6119, it turned out to be 6104, so not bad. This equates to a slight drop again in the exponential multiplier down from 1.017 to 1.015, so pretty steady. First time under 100 new cases since 17 March
Expect it to be around 6195 today.
Yesterday was predictably predictable. Total cases reached 6292. I guess it could be seen as slow steady progress downward with the multiplier dropping slightly again from 1.016 to 1.014 but its very slow and very steady. Seems to me the law of diminishing returns has kicked in and its hard to get better than this.
Expect cases to get to 6380 today but it would be encouraging to see a more significant dip. Actually it will be interesting to see if say on Tues or Wed if we see a rise because of Easter.
Let me know if you are getting sick of these updates
Not sure of what to make of todays update. Yesterday there were only 21 new cases. This drops the exponential multiplier down from 1.014 to 1.003 which is effectively all over (remember 1.0 is no new cases and we are done). Now I am pretty sure that this is more a case of not a lot of testing on Easter Sunday rather than the end of the epidemic, so it will be interesting to see what happens this week.
My biggest concern is that the public sees these figures and just gets back to normal life but I hope they dont. They have to understand the time lag in infection, symptoms, infectious state. I would love to see these hard restrictions last 4 more weeks to eradicate it.
At the risk of provoking @Hangonaminute and the new world order, but for the sake of continuity, here is the update on the figures.
Not sure how much can be taken from these numbers (restraint Hangon)...but only 46 new cases reported yesterday. Again, most likely a hangover from Easter weekend and we will see over the next few days if its an ongoing trend. FWIW the exponential multiplier bumped up slightly from incredibly low 0.003 to an also low 0.007.
What I find interesting and encouraging is NSW Department of Health are opening up test centres now where you can get tested on demand, anyone can get tested. This may spike numbers up but the result will be more reliable data and hopefully the start of an exit strategy. If they open testing up to all comers and the data doesnt change much, then they will know that they are on the right track and a possible way out.
Tentatively.....I post todays update. Yesterday was another steady day with only 56 new cases. The exponential multiplier ticked up slightly from 1.007 to 1.008 which is nothing really and still very low. These low numbers could be from reduced testing over the Easter break, but the NSW Health are testing all comers now and therefore we should be able to have some more faith in the data over the next week or so.
Would love to see it gradually decline further.
well there certainly seems to be some consistency and stability in the numbers. Another low result yesterday with only 32 new cases. THe exponential multiplier dropped slightly from 1.008 to 1.005.
These low numbers are encouraging with all states now testing all comers and in the case of NSW begging people to get tested but they cant get enough people to turn up. They were testing at 4500 a dayand now only get 1500 to show up.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-australia-where-to-get-tested-in-each-state-and-territory/news-story/fc16230d284983c4526470d84ff4125f
My guess is that its asymptomatic cases walking around responsible for these final numbers, maybe Hangonaminute on the beach, but surely its possible to get these numbers down from 30 to zero and then hold restrictions for a month, then back into it (with closed borders).
I briefly break our political bleating for something equally pointless, todays update. Pointless because it is incredibly steady and predictable. Exponential multiplier stayed steady for a second day at 1.008 with 53 cases (56 the day before).
I really hope we can squash that number down from 53 to zero. Otherwhise I can see a tricky decision coming up in 4 weeks for the GOvt to have to open things back up with it still wild out there.
I think I screwed yesterdays update up and as a result Im not 100% sure of yesterdays data. I think I i actually gave the data for the day before in yesterdays update (doubled up). My data is correct over the last two days but my data is showing 44 new cases for yesterday and only 11 for the day before, its possible that some of yesterdays cases should have been in the day before.
Regardless, as an average across the two days its only about 27 cases a day with an average exponential multiplier of 1.003 which is getting pretty low and with a downward trend. Hopefully we can squeeze them down to zero.
Todays update
Ridiculously steady again. Last three days the exponential multiplier has been jammed at 1.006. Wont budge. New cases for the last three days have been 44, 42, 41. You could set your watch to it.
Im hoping these number are somewhat inflated by Easter last week and we can squeeze the new cases down to zero over the next week. Maybe its not possible to get it to zero? I havent heard any experts talking about that possiblility,but when we are bouncing around 40 new cases a day in the whole of Australia, you would like to think its possible.
Ok so now something is happening. Only 13 new cases yesterday and the exponential multiplier dropped to 1.002. Dare to hope we can crush it to zero new cases and hold it?
6 New cases already this morning.
Another update. Its not over, new case numbers double to a still low 26 with the exponential multiplier at 1.004.
Suzie-QModerator