Coronavirus Outbreak

[dazza65]

Hi All
I have been putting my 2cents worth in here - hopefully sensibly in most cases where I have tried to explain the science/medicine behind the pandemic and/or clarify when asked.

Recently this thread has become... mind numbingly exasperating as people (admittedly scared or whatever) propagate nonsense and obvious political bias in a situation that calls for zero politics

So I am out of this thread, I wish you and your families all well health wise and financially and hopefully we will all be here in 6 months celebrating a tigers GF win :+1:

See y'all around the other threads....

 

[Tiger5150]

Everyone is knocking how China dealt with the issue

Every other country has the benefit of foresight ......

More than one thing can be true at once Hap

 

[trentrunciman]

I wish everyone the best during these strange times. I know my work place in education is being affected. My thoughts are with the WT forum. Hope the situation abates soon

 

[Snake]

31 confirmed cases now from the Stanwell Tops wedding, apparently brought in by a US guest, shows just how readily transmissible this virus is. At the very least I think it pertinent to closely monitor and test the schools of any of their children, if not close them immediately.

We have been back from the states for a month and the interesting thing about the stay was the amount of people that had coughs and sneezing ... as we travel to there winter every year I said to the wife something is not right here as we have never encountered so many un well people before . So I can only come to the conclusion this virus was already entrenching itself 2 months ago in the US.

 

[Snake]

Earl, it is a FACT that only ONE country had the opportunity to stop this thing in its tracks. Every other country has started from a position where they dont know how many cases are in the country, where they are, no capacity to contain it, and potential contagiants everywhere. Impossible to close borders because you at least have to let nationals home (with the virus).

I'll take this as an admittance that no other country has done what you are suggesting China should have done. I think it's best to drop it there.

The facts are no country has reacted the way that you are stating China should have reacted however you have excuses for every other country excluding China.

To me that is not a tenable position to be in.

If you said all countries should have been put into lock down immediately I don't even agree with that.

Singapore and Taiwan did a pretty good job of stopping it in it's tracks...

They also have a population that does what it is told ...as someone has said school kids in the shopping Centers instead of being at home isolated!! Good parenting there do not go to school but roam around in public being exposed . Aussies are dumb as sometimes .

 

[happy_tiger]

Earl, it is a FACT that only ONE country had the opportunity to stop this thing in its tracks. Every other country has started from a position where they dont know how many cases are in the country, where they are, no capacity to contain it, and potential contagiants everywhere. Impossible to close borders because you at least have to let nationals home (with the virus).

I'll take this as an admittance that no other country has done what you are suggesting China should have done. I think it's best to drop it there.

The facts are no country has reacted the way that you are stating China should have reacted however you have excuses for every other country excluding China.

To me that is not a tenable position to be in.

If you said all countries should have been put into lock down immediately I don't even agree with that.

Singapore and Taiwan did a pretty good job of stopping it in it's tracks...

They also have a population that does what it is told ...as someone has said school kids in the shopping Centers instead of being at home isolated!! Good parenting there do not go to school but roam around in public being exposed . Aussies are dumb as sometimes .

x 2 The biggest problem in all this is young people ....most couldn't give a rats if it affected anyone else

I know of a party this is going ahead this weekend of two 18 year olds who share the same birthday ...will be hundreds at the party ...I have about 9 staff going ..it's just nuts

 

[Tiger5150]

31 confirmed cases now from the Stanwell Tops wedding, apparently brought in by a US guest, shows just how readily transmissible this virus is. At the very least I think it pertinent to closely monitor and test the schools of any of their children, if not close them immediately.

We have been back from the states for a month and the interesting thing about the stay was the amount of people that had coughs and sneezing ... as we travel to there winter every year I said to the wife something is not right here as we have never encountered so many un well people before . So I can only come to the conclusion this virus was already entrenching itself 2 months ago in the US.

I actually think that I might have had it. three weeks ago, my partner, my stepdaughter and I became sick. Felt like a bad cold but without the head full of snot, bad dry cough, short of breath and muscle aches. Didnt think anything of it really except we caught it off my step daughter, who caught it from her best friend, who just happened to have had family arrive from Korea and were staying with her.

Was pretty much 100% three or four days later. Scary thing though is that when I was at my sickest I hung out with my sisters family and my elderly parents. My sister and her son got sick, my parents are still ok.

I obviously will never know if it was or not (hope it was) but the symptoms were identical to those described and we had the connection to sick people from overseas. It didnt occur to me until probably two weeks later and I rang the DoH hotline and they said "oh well" carry on.

 

[happy_tiger]

And the other problem is this ...they won't test you unless you have dealt with someone who had coronavirus OK

If you work in the customer service industry how do you KNOW if you have or haven't dealt with someone with CV ....

 

[Geo]

Earl, it is a FACT that only ONE country had the opportunity to stop this thing in its tracks. Every other country has started from a position where they dont know how many cases are in the country, where they are, no capacity to contain it, and potential contagiants everywhere. Impossible to close borders because you at least have to let nationals home (with the virus).

I'll take this as an admittance that no other country has done what you are suggesting China should have done. I think it's best to drop it there.

The facts are no country has reacted the way that you are stating China should have reacted however you have excuses for every other country excluding China.

To me that is not a tenable position to be in.

If you said all countries should have been put into lock down immediately I don't even agree with that.

Singapore and Taiwan did a pretty good job of stopping it in it's tracks...

They also have a population that does what it is told ...as someone has said school kids in the shopping Centers instead of being at home isolated!! Good parenting there do not go to school but roam around in public being exposed . Aussies are dumb as sometimes .

x 2 The biggest problem in all this is young people ....most couldn't give a rats if it affected anyone else

I know of a party this is going ahead this weekend of two 18 year olds who share the same birthday ...will be hundreds at the party ...I have about 9 staff going ..it's just nuts

That's what happens when YOU employ child labour..

 

[kevinmcguinness]

Earl, it is a FACT that only ONE country had the opportunity to stop this thing in its tracks. Every other country has started from a position where they dont know how many cases are in the country, where they are, no capacity to contain it, and potential contagiants everywhere. Impossible to close borders because you at least have to let nationals home (with the virus).

I'll take this as an admittance that no other country has done what you are suggesting China should have done. I think it's best to drop it there.

The facts are no country has reacted the way that you are stating China should have reacted however you have excuses for every other country excluding China.

To me that is not a tenable position to be in.

If you said all countries should have been put into lock down immediately I don't even agree with that.

Singapore and Taiwan did a pretty good job of stopping it in it's tracks...

They also have a population that does what it is told ...as someone has said school kids in the shopping Centers instead of being at home isolated!! Good parenting there do not go to school but roam around in public being exposed . Aussies are dumb as sometimes .

x 2 The biggest problem in all this is young people ....most couldn't give a rats if it affected anyone else

I know of a party this is going ahead this weekend of two 18 year olds who share the same birthday ...will be hundreds at the party ...I have about 9 staff going ..it's just nuts

That's what happens when YOU employ child labour..

Perhaps our kids would do a better job running this country :laughing:

 

[Tiger5150]

Earl, it is a FACT that only ONE country had the opportunity to stop this thing in its tracks. Every other country has started from a position where they dont know how many cases are in the country, where they are, no capacity to contain it, and potential contagiants everywhere. Impossible to close borders because you at least have to let nationals home (with the virus).

I'll take this as an admittance that no other country has done what you are suggesting China should have done. I think it's best to drop it there.

The facts are no country has reacted the way that you are stating China should have reacted however you have excuses for every other country excluding China.

To me that is not a tenable position to be in.

If you said all countries should have been put into lock down immediately I don't even agree with that.

Singapore and Taiwan did a pretty good job of stopping it in it's tracks...

They also have a population that does what it is told ...as someone has said school kids in the shopping Centers instead of being at home isolated!! Good parenting there do not go to school but roam around in public being exposed . Aussies are dumb as sometimes .

x 2 The biggest problem in all this is young people ....most couldn't give a rats if it affected anyone else

I know of a party this is going ahead this weekend of two 18 year olds who share the same birthday ...will be hundreds at the party ...I have about 9 staff going ..it's just nuts

That's what happens when YOU employ child labour..

Perhaps our kids would do a better job running this country :laughing:

Oh god, not mine

 

[weststigers]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

Let me ask you this.

If you slept with a close female friend (or a male) that knew they had herpes, but they lied to you about it having it. Then, they went to great lengths to tell you the sores you were seeing were just a skin ailment that will clear up in time - "nothing to worry about Earl, you're paranoid". On top of that, she interfered with your ability to get an independent medical opinion.

Now let's say you're a bit of a ladies man Earl. All the while, you're out there swooning the ladies and spreading herpes to all your partners. Then those partners are out there doing the same.

Weeks later and after some serious pain and more research, You decide to get tested. You test positive and you realise she was lying to you all along, but it's too late. It's already moving from person to person, country to country. Now all you can do is let the issue take it's course.

In my opinion, the responsibility lies with the person that lied and tried to cover it up. In fact, the precedent on these health related issues is evident when people with HIV/AIDS neglect to tell their partners that they are infected. If you withhold that information, there are legal ramifications.

I think the point @Tiger5150 is making is that all countries have a very serious responsibility to notify the world of these potentially crippling illnesses as quickly as possible. The fact Chinese authorities were engaged in a cover up meant that by the time they decided to come clean, the virus had taken hold and it was too late. We were just lambs to the slaughter. It seemed that saving face was more important than the well being of their own people and the citizens of other countries. The countries that pour trillions of dollars of trade funds into China. China has failed the transparency test one too many times and I hope countries begin to pull back given Chinas poor record in this area.

If you want to talk about the RESPONSE to the virus, it shouldn't be put into the same discussion as the CAUSE. The cause is clear.

In fairness, the worlds response to the virus should not even be in question. Why? Because the best answer would have been to close down all borders of all countries. Well guess what? It still would have caused huge economic destruction to every country in the world. You only need to look at QANTAS to see how worldwide border closures would have impacted economies worldwide.

The real question is, why didn't China close its borders until their outbreak was nullified? The worldwide economic damage would have been averted as well as the health impact we are now seeing everywhere. Chinas decision to keep their borders open during this whole crisis just shows where the CCP priorities lie.

 

[jadtiger]

Everyone is knocking how China dealt with the issue

Every other country has the benefit of foresight ......

Again lets just find a cure asap and until the cure is found please keep all the vulnerable people in our communities safe

I think you mean hindsight because they can see the mistakes China made but it is a very valid point

 

[TillLindemann]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

It's not their later lockdowns that's the issue. It's their first reaction, of trying to cover it up, and arresting doctors who warned about it. It was the typical reaction of a ruthless, tyrannical regime.

Don't forget, this is the same government that runs LITERAL concentration camps for entire ethnic groups. Not history, right now. But we look the other way simply because they're a big trade partner.

 

[trentrunciman]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

It's not their later lockdowns that's the issue. It's their first reaction, of trying to cover it up, and arresting doctors who warned about it. It was the typical reaction of a ruthless, tyrannical regime.

Don't forget, this is the same government that runs LITERAL concentration camps for entire ethnic groups. Not history, right now. But we look the other way simply because they're a big trade partner.

I agree Till. Have you seen the movie "Letter from masanjia?" Went with a few teachers here to see the opening (Fred Nile was there too haha).

If you look at Russia USA etc their track record isn't very good on HR. I think one of the most beautiful parts of China are in Xinjiang, especially old town, Kashgar. Unfortunately I've heard it's been demolished.

But I don't think it's best at the moment to politicise the issue... solidarity mate

 

[weststigers]

YES OF COURSE I AM!!! It started there, when it was discovered it was in small numbers and there was an opportunity to contain it. No other country had that opportunity. The CCP instead arrested people, destroyed evidence and told the world it didnt exist!!!

We've all had the opportunity to limit the spread of this in our countries and across the world. Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon told everyone it was just a cold. He was completely incompetent. Look at the situation in Europe now.

I get where you are coming from and clearly China needs to take action. I am also critical of several actions that China has taken.

Sure the CCP has done lots of things wrong and continue to do lots of things wrong but there is plenty of blame to go around. Let's all calm down, stop being irrational and think what can happen to stop these events occurring again.

Can I assume your income is not affected one iota by this world shutdown? Do you work in the government? Coles? Somewhere your income is totally safe?

Can you at least appreciate that despite all the payment relief that will be given to people, it still needs to be repaid. The income people are missing out on now doesn't get earned back later, but the debt will remain. It steals from your future prosperity. On a macro scale, this creates an inbuilt increase in peoples future expenses or an extension of their debt obligations...it just lengthens the time this recession will be felt.

It's totally rational to call out blame where it's due. Once I work out how I can make money again, I'll have the head space to work out how to stop these events occurring again.

 

[TillLindemann]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

It's not their later lockdowns that's the issue. It's their first reaction, of trying to cover it up, and arresting doctors who warned about it. It was the typical reaction of a ruthless, tyrannical regime.

Don't forget, this is the same government that runs LITERAL concentration camps for entire ethnic groups. Not history, right now. But we look the other way simply because they're a big trade partner.

I agree Till. Have you seen the movie "Letter from masanjia?" Went with a few teachers here to see the opening (Fred Nile was there too haha).

If you look at Russia USA etc their track record isn't very good on HR. I think one of the most beautiful parts of China are in Xinjiang, especially old town, Kashgar. Unfortunately I've heard it's been demolished.

But I don't think it's best at the moment to politicise the issue... solidarity mate

Yeah I agree it shouldn't be politicised. And for the record if I have criticised the Chinese government it is aimed only at the government, not the people (likewise any other government I've criticised). Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

 

[earl]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

It's not their later lockdowns that's the issue. It's their first reaction, of trying to cover it up, and arresting doctors who warned about it. It was the typical reaction of a ruthless, tyrannical regime.

Don't forget, this is the same government that runs LITERAL concentration camps for entire ethnic groups. Not history, right now. But we look the other way simply because they're a big trade partner.

I hear what you are stating but you are missing a critical point. It's very hard to state that China made the outcome worse than what it would have been across the world due to their ruthless, tyrannical regime. In fact their regime may have even curbed it more quickly and there is some evidence to state that this is the case.

Sure crucify China if you want too. I'm all in.

I'm just extremely skeptical that the Chinese government made this worse across the entire world than any other government would have in that situation. I'm just being rational and looking at the reactions of every country (politicians and people) across the world.

If someone can come up with evidence of a country immediately locking the whole country down and stopping the spread of this infection immediately then you guys have a point.

Personally I'll wait for the facts to come out and more educated opinions to come forth. We need rational realistic arguments to come forth and blaming all of this on the CCP to me is clearly delusional. I posted a while back a paper that Bill Gates had written where so many points were raised. Unfortunately so many people just want to blame the CCP but there are a lot of other factors at play here.

 

[hobbo1]

North Korea has dealt with it extremely well


Basically if you catch China Flu you’re shot dead !

 

[earl]

The CCP did not handle this well and IMO are responsible for it spreading to the rest of the world.

This is an opinion and I believe it's completely unrealistic. You are partially correct in that they should have stopped all travel immediately and locked the country down.

The thing is no other country has done this and I don't believe any other country would have.

Your opinion that they didn't handle it well isn't backed up by the data. I accept the data is probably really dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that much more people died in China that what has been reported however at this time it appears the government that you are so hell bent on criticizing have handled this better than the vast majority of western countries.

No country acted immediately. The impact of reacting immediately has too much of an effect on the economy. One of my kids is at school now.

Your argument doesn't cut it to me. It just comes across as completely delusional especially in relation to how the rest of the world have handled the situation.

Theoretically you are correct but in practice no country has done what you are suggesting.

It's not their later lockdowns that's the issue. It's their first reaction, of trying to cover it up, and arresting doctors who warned about it. It was the typical reaction of a ruthless, tyrannical regime.

Don't forget, this is the same government that runs LITERAL concentration camps for entire ethnic groups. Not history, right now. But we look the other way simply because they're a big trade partner.

I agree Till. Have you seen the movie "Letter from masanjia?" Went with a few teachers here to see the opening (Fred Nile was there too haha).

If you look at Russia USA etc their track record isn't very good on HR. I think one of the most beautiful parts of China are in Xinjiang, especially old town, Kashgar. Unfortunately I've heard it's been demolished.

But I don't think it's best at the moment to politicise the issue... solidarity mate

Yeah I agree it shouldn't be politicised. And for the record if I have criticised the Chinese government it is aimed only at the government, not the people (likewise any other government I've criticised). Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

I think the people deserve to cop it as well. We all have a part to play here. If people in Australia socially distance themselves we can stop this quickly but as has been reported anecdotally on this forum plenty of people still don't get it. If people across the world had got this it would not be as bad.

I have heaps to criticize the Chinese government about. From what I've see of the USA Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon has been a complete fool until recently in relation to this virus. I assume basically all European governments have been just as bad. Australia appears okay now but if we get massive spikes the government has clearly stuffed this up.