Coronavirus Outbreak

[cochise]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.

I think he blocked the person you are referring to, you two actually disagree with the same person on this issue which is what led to your original post about this.

 

[Tiger5150]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Mate do you still have @Hangonaminute blocked?

LOL yes I do. Is that the missing link?

 

[cochise]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Mate do you still have @Hangonaminute blocked?

LOL yes I do. Is that the missing link?

Yes, @mike was actually disagreeing with him about Sweden which led to this, you two aren't that far apart in your opinions.

 

[Tiger5150]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.

Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

 

[mike]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.

 

[Tiger5150]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.

Missing the point Mike. What about if we never get a vaccine and this thing doesnt go away and instead spreads in wave after wave? That will mean that death rates will continue to climb over the whole of the world EXCEPT SWEDEN which will have herd immunity. In that case they will have minimised deaths over time as well as maximising their economy, they will have aced the game. If this thing fizzles out over the next couple of months, they have possibly cost lives.

 

[cochise]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.

Mate, that is a little unfair. I don't think he was trying to be callous, it is interesting to find out what strategy has worked the best and though I believe Sweden made a mistake their numbers are not as bad as I would have thought they would be at this point.

 

[mike]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.


Missing the point Mike. What about if we never get a vaccine and this thing doesnt go away and instead spreads in wave after wave? That will mean that death rates will continue to climb over the whole of the world EXCEPT SWEDEN which will have herd immunity. In that case they will have minimised deaths over time as well as maximising their economy, they will have aced the game. If this thing fizzles out over the next couple of months, they have possibly cost lives.

I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong.

You are assuming, as is Sweden, that once you get the virus you never get it again and that you are immune. There is not enough evidence to assume one way or the other at this stage. That’s a pretty big experiment, that you know will result in deaths, of an entire population of a nation with an unknown variable at this stage don’t you think?

 

[Tiger5150]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.


Missing the point Mike. What about if we never get a vaccine and this thing doesnt go away and instead spreads in wave after wave? That will mean that death rates will continue to climb over the whole of the world EXCEPT SWEDEN which will have herd immunity. In that case they will have minimised deaths over time as well as maximising their economy, they will have aced the game. If this thing fizzles out over the next couple of months, they have possibly cost lives.

I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong.

You are assuming, as is Sweden, that once you get the virus you never get it again and that you are immune. There is not enough evidence to assume one way or the other at this stage. That’s a pretty big experiment, that you know will result in deaths, of an entire population of a nation with an unknown variable at this stage don’t you think?

I am not assuming anything, that is the whole point. I DONT KNOW (neither do you) how this pans out. Sweden have zigged while the rest of the world has zagged. In the end we will all know. But even RIGHT NOW Sweden are doing better than other nations without screwing their economy. We will find out in the future.

Im done with this but let me ask you this. Why are you so passionate about Sweden when Italy, France, Spain, UK, NY have all taken steps that have resulted in more deaths per capita ?

 

[mike]

Covid19 facts

Children are more likely to die from the flu than covid19.
CDC data Dr Scott Atlas Stanford.

If you are under the age of 24, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to die covid19.
Avic Roy data

More than half of covid19 deaths in 20 states of the USA were in nursing homes.
81% in Minnesota
75% in Rhode island
72% in New Hampshire
60% in Oregon, Washington state, North Carolina, Nabraska, Massachusetts, Delaware and other states.

When Colarado revised their death toll to differentiate between those who died 'with' covid to those who died 'from' covid, their death toll dropped 25%.
According to the governor of Colorado.

Lockdowns are more deadly, people commit suicide at higher rates thanks to unemployment according to the bureau of economic research and statistics.

The economic devestation from lockdowns causes poverty worldwide which could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of children, according to the United nations.

In places like Sweden, Georgia or Florida where lockdowns were lifted or there were never any to begin with, there has been no massive outbreak of covid19

The highest risk of covid19 transmission is at home among family members according to studies from Hong Kong, Germany and Taiwan
The risk of transmitting the virus outdoors is 18 times less.

The prediction models were wrong, have been proven wrong, but politicians who based their covid19 lockdown policies on those models have refused to revise them even when shown that the models are wrong.

Just been reported that Sweden now has the highest per capital death rate of any Nation. Sweden are paying for their lack of action.


Except its not true, quite a few countries ahead of Swedens still including UK, France Spain. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Go back and re-read that report. It was the highest per capita death rate, for that week.


They are still paying for thier lack of action. How many thousand dead?

3925. Im not making an argument that they are doing a good or a bad job, just simply pointing out that it is not true that Sweden has the highest death rate per capita in the world. That report was misleading and actually reported that it had the highest per capita death rate for that one week.

Well they did for that week.


THAT is true. "Sweden now has the highest death rate per capita in the world", is not true.

Sweden is interesting and no one can say yet whether they have done the right or the wrong thing. If the virus continues throughout the US & Europe and continues in wave after wave with continual lockdown, then Sweden will be in front because they will reach herd immunity without destroying their economy and without overloading their health system (unnecessary deaths through lack of care). However if in the US & Europe they manage to crush the virus down with no second or subsequent waves, then Sweden pulled the wrong rein.

Sweeden population 10,099,265. 3,925 dead. Australia population 25,499,884. 101 dead. Pretty obvisous to me that they got it wrong.


You cant compare any country to Australia except maybe NZ, for "our land is girt by sea".

Australia is at an almost unique situation geographically, where as Europe has completely different constraints and parameters. Compare Sweden to Italy, Spain, France etc. These countries have similar conditions to Sweden and Sweden has done better than these countries on a per capita death rate basis. Also compare to Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden is doing worse than these countries per capita death rate, but this is almost irelevant because no one really knows how this thing ends.

Does it just fizzle out in the medium term in US & Europe and they successfully get back to normal life in the medium term? If so Sweden made the wrong choice.

Does the virus persist, with ongoing waves of infections in Europe? If so Sweden will be a mile ahead.

Sure you can, I just did.


You also concluded this conversation.

And what would have happened if we didn’t introduce the measures we did in the timeframe we did and we went for herd immunity like Sweden and initially England did. I would not be surprise to see the deaths at over 10,000 by now, not 101. It’s a fair comparison, Sweden got it wrong.


Popuation Density of Australia = 3.1 per km2, Population density of Sweden 25people per km2.

Land borders with Australia = 0. Land borders with Sweden = 3.

Can’t agree with that comparison at all. Most of Australia’s population is in the cities where the density is approx 430 persons per square kilometre using Sydney as an example. It’s not the total land mass that determines the underlying density.


So your argument is despite Sweden having 8 x the population density of Australia, Australia has has tighter denser population in our major cities?

Sydney 430 people per km2 - https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/research-and-statistics/the-city-at-a-glance/greater-sydney

Malmo 2130 people per km2 - https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/se/demografia/dati-sintesi/malmo/20299264/4

It is ridiculous to compare the situation controlling the virus in a small country like Australia, isolated on the other side of the world, with a sparse population, completely surrounded by water, not in the middle of a massive densely populated continent with massive international travel. Im not sure of what agenda you are trying to push.

They are a sovereign nation, they control their borders and who they let in and out. They chose a different methodology with the result they now have nearly 4,000 dead. They got it wrong. I suspect that it is also about to get much worse.


Even if they never let anyone through their borders, they still have 8 x the population density of Australia, (5 x Sydney in Malmo). Do you understand how exponential growth works?

In your opinion, they got it wrong, you might be right. I dont have an opinion whether they got it wrong or right yet because it is impossible to know at this stage before we know how this ends.

The fact that you have repeatedly quoted statements that were completely incorrect makes it hard to discuss this rationally with you. (Highest death rates per capita in the world, sydney poulation density v Malmo etc)

I understand exactly how exponential growth works, thank you very much. You are completely missing the point in all this.


What point am I missing? You have made a few points in this thread.

First point you made was that "Sweden have the highest per capita death rate in the world" despite the fact that they dont, by a fair way. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made that was that Sydney has a denser population than Malmo, despite the fact that Malmo has a 5 x more dense population. Was that the point I missed?

Another point you made was that Sweden has had a lot of people die (3950) despite the fact that we still dont know if Europe will escape the virus without a series of waves of infections that Sweden may miss due to herd immunity. Is that the point I missed?

What point did I miss?

You missed who is holding up Sweden as a shining example.

are you going to share?

Nope, I don’t want to encourage them.


Fair enough and now I see what is stoking the fire.

I'd like to leave it here with this as my last statement. IMO you, me and Hangonaminute dont know if Sweden got this right or wrong becase we dont know the end result. If there is never a vaccine and this thing continues for years in wave after wave, Sweden got it right. If it fades out by itself in the next few months, Sweden probably got it wrong.

Regardless, without "holding Sweden up as a shining light", their strategy is at least interesting. Even based on current data, they are doing better than UK, SPain, France, Italy and a few other Euro nations and in the same ballpark as the US without completely screwing their economy. They are an interesting outlier.

I don't think 3,925 dead is interesting at all, I think it is disgusting. These are human beings who are Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daugthters and Sons. They are not just an intersting statistics, they are part of families that will never be able to speak to or hug thier loved ones again, ever.


Missing the point Mike. What about if we never get a vaccine and this thing doesnt go away and instead spreads in wave after wave? That will mean that death rates will continue to climb over the whole of the world EXCEPT SWEDEN which will have herd immunity. In that case they will have minimised deaths over time as well as maximising their economy, they will have aced the game. If this thing fizzles out over the next couple of months, they have possibly cost lives.

I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong.

You are assuming, as is Sweden, that once you get the virus you never get it again and that you are immune. There is not enough evidence to assume one way or the other at this stage. That’s a pretty big experiment, that you know will result in deaths, of an entire population of a nation with an unknown variable at this stage don’t you think?


I am not assuming anything, that is the whole point. I DONT KNOW (neither do you) how this pans out. Sweden have zigged while the rest of the world has zagged. In the end we will all know. But even RIGHT NOW Sweden are doing better than other nations without screwing their economy. We will find out in the future.

Im done with this but let me ask you this. Why are you so passionate about Sweden when Italy, France, Spain, UK, NY have all taken steps that have resulted in more deaths per capita ?

Because all of those have stuffed it up, including Sweden. That’s the point. Yet some people want to given Sweden a pass mark. So well done Sweden you’ve killed 3,925 of your citizens, good for you.

 

[Snake]

Where is Joe Hockey when you need someone to crunch the numbers 🙂

A 60 bn error. Even the most conservative of reporters, Chris Kenny, is calling this a mind boggling error.

Great economic managers my backside.

Its a joke isn't it, they didn't realise most small businesses don't have 1500 employees and just filled form in wrong?

I feel badly for those who should have received assistance but were deemed ineligible. I don't know how they survive.

There you go only in this country could a government be criticised for saving $60 billion ...I applied and have received Job Keeper payments for my employees !
What the government and the ATO have done in such a short period of time is amazing .
It was not easy going through this process and stressfully but in the end it worked out ... there is something called due diligence that needs to be applied at times ! the hand holding culture that is now deep rooted in our society is mind blowing !

 

[tiger_one]

@mike said in [Coronavirus Outbreak](/post/1150983):

".....I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong."

The big difference is now that everyone, worldwide, is attempting to really find a vaccine to cope with this pandemic.
Hope I'm right.

 

[cochise]

".....I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong."

The big difference is now that everyone, worldwide, is attempting to really find a vaccine to cope with this pandemic.
Hope I'm right.

People have been trying to find a vaccine for HIV for 40 years.

 

[mike]

".....I am assuming there will never be a vaccine. The original Covid was in 2003 and there is still no vaccine. Hope I am wrong."

The big difference is now that everyone, worldwide, is attempting to really find a vaccine to cope with this pandemic.
Hope I'm right.

I hope you are right as well but I am not confident. Viruses are tricky little buggers. We still don’t have a vaccine for AIDS, despite widespread research. I think it’s more likely that some anti-viral treatments will be developed rather than an actual vaccine. But again I really do hope we develop a vaccine. It will calm the farm of a lot of people.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Good to hear POTUS tested very positively.

 

[cochise]

Good to hear POTUS tested very positively.

Very positively towards the negative.

 

[tigger]

The discussion you guys have been having around the Swedish response has been very interesting.

The Swedish health authorities argue that none of us will know whether or not their response was correct for at least another two years. The logic being that the disease will sweep through in recurring waves and the Swedes will be largely immune to those subsequent waves by virtue of having built up herd immunity (and protected their economy as a by-product) whilst countries that haven't built up immunity will be continually impacted.

It strikes me that the Swedish response is fundamentally pessimistic in that it assumes that the disease will continually run rampant without any effective response by mankind.

Our response appears to be far more optimistic. Suppress the disease as much as possible now in the hope that:
(a) A vaccine will be created or,
(b) Medications will be created to relieve the severe symptoms and immune responses that result in a high death rate

The Swedes may still be right but it seems to me that they have opted for the worst case scenario. Nor do I think that it will protect their economy when all of the major economies around them are tanking.

I definitely prefer the Australian and New Zealand responses to the pandemic.

The responses in the UK, the USA and some other European and South American countries appear to have simply been incompetent rather than a considered alternative.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Where is Joe Hockey when you need someone to crunch the numbers 🙂

A 60 bn error. Even the most conservative of reporters, Chris Kenny, is calling this a mind boggling error.

Great economic managers my backside.

Its a joke isn't it, they didn't realise most small businesses don't have 1500 employees and just filled form in wrong?

I feel badly for those who should have received assistance but were deemed ineligible. I don't know how they survive.

There you go only in this country could a government be criticised for saving $60 billion ...I applied and have received Job Keeper payments for my employees !
What the government and the ATO have done in such a short period of time is amazing .
It was not easy going through this process and stressfully but in the end it worked out ... there is something called due diligence that needs to be applied at times ! the hand holding culture that is now deep rooted in our society is mind blowing !

Ha, the spin by the conservatives. Imagine if this money was available to those casuals, airline employees etc as was wanted by the other parties.. Ironically, Govt intervention into the market is lefty doctrine so we are pleased the conservatives have embraced market intervention with such enthusiasm.

 

[cochise]

The discussion you guys have been having around the Swedish response has been very interesting.

The Swedish health authorities argue that none of us will know whether or not their response was correct for at least another two years. The logic being that the disease will sweep through in recurring waves and the Swedes will be largely immune to those subsequent waves by virtue of having built up herd immunity (and protected their economy as a by-product) whilst countries that haven't built up immunity will be continually impacted.

It strikes me that the Swedish response is fundamentally pessimistic in that it assumes that the disease will continually run rampant without any effective response by mankind.

Our response appears to be far more optimistic. Suppress the disease as much as possible now in the hope that:
(a) A vaccine will be created or,
(b) Medications will be created to relieve the severe symptoms and immune responses that result in a high death rate

The Swedes may still be right but it seems to me that they have opted for the worst case scenario. Nor do I think that it will protect their economy when all of the major economies around them are tanking.

I definitely prefer the Australian and New Zealand responses to the pandemic.

The responses in the UK, the USA and some other European and South American countries appear to have simply been incompetent rather than a considered alternative.

The flattening the curve strategy wasn't an aim to get us through the entire crisis, at the time we went with this strategy the best research I saw was about flattening the curve to buy time. Buy time for a vaccine to be developed and treatments to improve but to also prepare yourself to deal with the virus, to have have ICU beds and resources etc, to have a way of tracing the the contacts and break the infection chain. Our efforts to buy time worked so well I got hopeful we could move to an eradication strategy and forgot what the aim really was of what we adopted. We are now moving into the stage where we manage the virus and its outbreaks because we bought ourselves time and now believe we are prepared to deal with any outbreaks we have. Fingers crossed we are right on that.

Sweden skipped the buying time phase and just hoped they were able to deal with the consequences of the virus, they are now at that tipping point where it may explode and start to overwhelm their health system. Only time will tell how their gamble pays of because they 100% did gamble.

 

[diedpretty]

Where is Joe Hockey when you need someone to crunch the numbers 🙂

A 60 bn error. Even the most conservative of reporters, Chris Kenny, is calling this a mind boggling error.

Great economic managers my backside.

Its a joke isn't it, they didn't realise most small businesses don't have 1500 employees and just filled form in wrong?

The moron who came up with that excuse needs to be sacked. You would have to be very gullible to believe that is why there is a 60bn mistake.