David Klemmer #264

[BlackWhiteGold]

He's fine. He's a war horse. We need experience around our very young squad. That has value in the medium term beyond just what happens in 2025. Some of our young forwards need to learn not to wig out after getting belted by Canberra in freezing cold Monday night game, (or similar). He's been about as good as I expected him to be. If he's good enough he'll play enough games.

IMO there are a lot of variables to be sorted through before the club determines its stance on Klemmer's future in 2026.

1 his contracted salary for 2026
2 his form early in the season
3 what Pole decides to do
4 the form of our other backup middles in Twal, Seyfarth Johannssen, Fainu
5 Richo's ongoing relationship with Klem's manager Isaac Moses

Yes his experience could be beneficial but if he shows more signs that age is catching up with him, it will be very interesting what Benji does around Rounds 10-12.

 

[TYGA]

Klemmer situation is interesting. Assuming we pick 4 props each game Pole, Hunt, May, Twal are all better players. I don’t believe anyone believes Klemmer in 2026 on big money is happening. He won’t play the 14 games because of his contract.

 

[crazycat]

Klemmer situation is interesting. Assuming we pick 4 props each game Pole, Hunt, May, Twal are all better players. I don’t believe anyone believes Klemmer in 2026 on big money is happening. He won’t play the 14 games because of his contract.

I don't get what you are saying. Sure Klemmer 2026 won't be on 650k that he is on, Bigg-ish money.
Based on performance 300-350k come 2026??

But what do you mean "he wont' play the 14 games because of his contract?" You mean Benji will starve him of games/time because he is on his way out? ... well that makes sense.

 

[crazycat]

I did a comparison of stats from Zero tackle of our front rowers.




Terrell May is WAY infront of Everyone. He could drop 20% and still be our best prop next year.

Klem kinda folds into the middle of our prop performance. Does better with Runs and Run meters, Tackles are lower then I imagined or remembered. Errors were low, but those stats don't show his slow play the ball which is an issue. His run and run meters are clearly above our team.

Pole would be a clear NR2 if his Missed Tackles wasn't so high. Typical tiger discipline.

Seyfarth is our hardest worker (bar May) and he offers dynamic play in attack.

Twal's stats so scream Bench prop. ...

Hunt is clearly a big concern as his Missed tackles are High, but his minutes have been so limited. He is a real "impact" player and he will improve. But honestly looking at the above I wouldn't be starting him and I wouldn't even guarantee him a place in the 17.


Just for comparison (and it's a little unfair)
Bateman's only good stat is his offloads. Every other aspect of his game is Tepid/weak. It's why I say Punt Bateman, because he isn't adding anything to the team. Klemmer however adds something, it means people have to play better then him to play in the team.

 

[TIGERS]

I did a comparison of stats from Zero tackle of our front rowers.

View attachment 17580


Terrell May is WAY infront of Everyone. He could drop 20% and still be our best prop next year.

Klem kinda folds into the middle of our prop performance. Does better with Runs and Run meters, Tackles are lower then I imagined or remembered. Errors were low, but those stats don't show his slow play the ball which is an issue. His run and run meters are clearly above our team.

Pole would be a clear NR2 if his Missed Tackles wasn't so high. Typical tiger discipline.

Seyfarth is our hardest worker (bar May) and he offers dynamic play in attack.

Twal's stats so scream Bench prop. ...

Hunt is clearly a big concern as his Missed tackles are High, but his minutes have been so limited. He is a real "impact" player and he will improve. But honestly looking at the above I wouldn't be starting him and I wouldn't even guarantee him a place in the 17.


Just for comparison (and it's a little unfair)
Bateman's only good stat is his offloads. Every other aspect of his game is Tepid/weak. It's why I say Punt Bateman, because he isn't adding anything to the team. Klemmer however adds something, it means people have to play better then him to play in the team.

Can you measure the performance of a forward in complete isolation? Would Klemmer have identical stats to his WT stats if he was playing next to JWH and co at the Roosters every week and was getting more hit ups over the advantage line and working through less raw defensive work? Factor in how a forwards stats are perhaps effected by games where other in his team players are making insane handling errors, losing possession or dealing with sin bins.

Furthermore, let's say Bateman's good stat is his offloads but at the same time he threw an awful offload attempt that gave a game away against Souths and subsequently blew up in sheds to the extent he had to be shipped out off on loan. Ok stats tell us he made a lot of offloads, but is that the full picture, and did those offloads (positively) change any situations for us with a game in the balance?

Missed tackles stats miss a lot of context as well. What happened in the previous play?, what is the overall situation in the set?, and do these missed tackles lead to a line break or dangerous attacking situation for your opponent? Half the time you miss a tackle you're actually getting rolled from something that screwed up 2 hits ago. Did the missed tackle change the situation of a match our was the team already 50 points ahead either way? What are the missed tackle stats when we are in the lead or getting smashed by 30 points?

I'm fascinated by sports stats, but what's unique about Rugby League, is that the rules change so much and the game is so physical, data analysts have really yet to find anything remotely close to the modeling you see in Soccer today. (xT), (xG), value models based on all the events and situations that happen in a game. You can read what some smart people have tried to do with Rugby league, but again the rules and tactics change so much and so often that modelling and measuring is practically impossible.

Of course there ARE stats, but IMO you can't accurately measure how good a forward is in comparison to others from other sides just by counting up the raw stats up given online. You'd need to really refine and set some conditions for what you're measuring. If anything, you want to find things that are hidden by the raw stats. e.g Liverpool bought Andy Robertson for only 8 mil after playing for a relegated team that conceded over 80 goals in a season. They didn't just measure his passes in the sense of were they successful or not, but what happened after his passes. Liverpool also have ways to measure if a player has been "Unlucky" or "Close" in certain situations too.

Not saying anything is 'wrong', just offering my opinion and some food for thought.

 

[Tucker]

Can you measure the performance of a forward in complete isolation? Would Klemmer have identical stats to his WT stats if he was playing next to JWH and co at the Roosters every week and was getting more hit ups over the advantage line and working through less raw defensive work? Factor in how a forwards stats are perhaps effected by games where other in his team players are making insane handling errors, losing possession or dealing with sin bins.

Furthermore, let's say Bateman's good stat is his offloads but at the same time he threw an awful offload attempt that gave a game away against Souths and subsequently blew up in sheds to the extent he had to be shipped out off on loan. Ok stats tell us he made a lot of offloads, but is that the full picture, and did those offloads (positively) change any situations for us with a game in the balance?

Missed tackles stats miss a lot of context as well. What happened in the previous play?, what is the overall situation in the set?, and do these missed tackles lead to a line break or dangerous attacking situation for your opponent? Half the time you miss a tackle you're actually getting rolled from something that screwed up 2 hits ago. Did the missed tackle change the situation of a match our was the team already 50 points ahead either way? What are the missed tackle stats when we are in the lead or getting smashed by 30 points?

I'm fascinated by sports stats, but what's unique about Rugby League, is that the rules change so much and the game is so physical, data analysts have really yet to find anything remotely close to the modeling you see in Soccer today. (xT), (xG), value models based on all the events and situations that happen in a game. You can read what some smart people have tried to do with Rugby league, but again the rules and tactics change so much and so often that modelling and measuring is practically impossible.

Of course there ARE stats, but IMO you can't accurately measure how good a forward is in comparison to others from other sides just by counting up the raw stats up given online. You'd need to really refine and set some conditions for what you're measuring. If anything, you want to find things that are hidden by the raw stats. e.g Liverpool bought Andy Robertson for only 8 mil after playing for a relegated team that conceded over 80 goals in a season. They didn't just measure his passes in the sense of were they successful or not, but what happened after his passes. Liverpool also have ways to measure if a player has been "Unlucky" or "Close" in certain situations too.

Not saying anything is 'wrong', just offering my opinion and some food for thought.

I love looking into the stats more than most.
The two stats that mattered the most to me last season was
1. the amount of sin bins we received - absolute self sabotage of a season,
2. the amount of points that were scored against our defence - worst in our 25 year history.
Our discipline and our defence were not elite NRL level quality.
They were an embarrassment.
This needs to change.

 

[crazycat]

I love looking into the stats more than most.
The two stats that mattered the most to me last season was
1. the amount of sin bins we received - absolute self sabotage of a season,
2. the amount of points that were scored against our defence - worst in our 25 year history.
Our discipline and our defence were not elite NRL level quality.
They were an embarrassment.
This needs to change.

I love stats too.

But I am going to disagree on 1. We needed to threaten a little. Yes we got binned too much and Penrith/Storm/etc did not. We needed to see some fire in the team and we got it. Happy to fine tune that.

2. DEFENSE, OMG YES.
Pole and Papallii really stand out for so many missed tackles. Yet we can cope with a miss in the middle occasionally. It's the Center/Wing's that if they miss a tackle, a fast player gets through and often scores.

I wish they showed "missed tackles leading to a try" as IMHO that is one of the most imporant stats. Along with "opposing tries on players side of field".
Defense is a team effort, us chopping and changing players like we do means we get less "Gel". Good defensive teams know which players they can trust, which they can't, when someone needs support and when someone can handle the player by themselves.
Were nowhere near that.

I really want to know why Nathan Cayless failed to improve our defense and why we went backwards with him. Madge rated him highly, but we never saw the results on the field. I suspect Cayless tried to harden up a very soft forward pack, but did nothing with the backs as we were swiss cheese under Madge.

We should still have some forward impact with May, but need to get the coordination with our backline. Turuva and Skelton are new and will take awhile to work themselves out.

 

[Needaname]

I love looking into the stats more than most.
The two stats that mattered the most to me last season was
1. the amount of sin bins we received - absolute self sabotage of a season,
2. the amount of points that were scored against our defence - worst in our 25 year history.
Our discipline and our defence were not elite NRL level quality.
They were an embarrassment.
This needs to change.

Surely our recruiting this year has tightened up our middle. And Luai at half has tightened up at least one edge.

 

[Needaname]

I love stats too.

But I am going to disagree on 1. We needed to threaten a little. Yes we got binned too much and Penrith/Storm/etc did not. We needed to see some fire in the team and we got it. Happy to fine tune that.

2. DEFENSE, OMG YES.
Pole and Papallii really stand out for so many missed tackles. Yet we can cope with a miss in the middle occasionally. It's the Center/Wing's that if they miss a tackle, a fast player gets through and often scores.

I wish they showed "missed tackles leading to a try" as IMHO that is one of the most imporant stats. Along with "opposing tries on players side of field".
Defense is a team effort, us chopping and changing players like we do means we get less "Gel". Good defensive teams know which players they can trust, which they can't, when someone needs support and when someone can handle the player by themselves.
Were nowhere near that.

I really want to know why Nathan Cayless failed to improve our defense and why we went backwards with him. Madge rated him highly, but we never saw the results on the field. I suspect Cayless tried to harden up a very soft forward pack, but did nothing with the backs as we were swiss cheese under Madge.

We should still have some forward impact with May, but need to get the coordination with our backline. Turuva and Skelton are new and will take awhile to work themselves out.

There is a try causes stat. Might be in the Fox sports lab. Might give you what you are after.

 

[tiger_one]

I love looking into the stats more than most.
The two stats that mattered the most to me last season was
1. the amount of sin bins we received - absolute self sabotage of a season,
2. the amount of points that were scored against our defence - worst in our 25 year history.
Our discipline and our defence were not elite NRL level quality.
They were an embarrassment.
This needs to change.

Champion @Tucker, you can never fault a stats man! 😉

Added to that is our wasted goal kicking misses.

I would say that our disastrous defense stats highlight the disjointed team selections with so many players being played "up" a grade or two, before their time.

It is so hard loving this team from a pure win/loss point, in that I'm sure the players wearing our jersey want to win, but sometimes the quality of the cattle is easily shaded by the more settled teams.
Seemingly, the Crocodile Roll recruitment pays off and we start to climb that ladder, sooner than later.

 

[Tucker]

Surely our recruiting this year has tightened up our middle. And Luai at half has tightened up at least one edge.

Maybe. It’s the system that failed rather than individuals.

 

[Tiger-ferret]

Maybe. It’s the system that failed rather than individuals.

I agree in principle but it’s hard to execute any first grade system with 2nd grade players

 

[Tucker]

I agree in principle but it’s hard to execute any first grade system with 2nd grade players

We had more than enough first grade talent to not get the past 2 spoons.
Recruitment alone won’t save the problems.

 

[Tiger-ferret]

We had more than enough first grade talent to not get the past 2 spoons.
Recruitment alone won’t save the problems.

Genuine question. Who do you think had a worse squad? I think parra underperformed with their squad.

 

[tigerballs]

I love looking into the stats more than most.
The two stats that mattered the most to me last season was
1. the amount of sin bins we received - absolute self sabotage of a season,
2. the amount of points that were scored against our defence - worst in our 25 year history.
Our discipline and our defence were not elite NRL level quality.
They were an embarrassment.
This needs to change.

I'd also like to see how closely those two are related. Obviously, more points are most likely to be conceded with 12 or even 11 men in defence but what happens once those players are back on the field? Are we leaking points continually because of fatigue? Are we lifting intensity being a man down?

Another of interest would be number of 6 agains, on what tackle they were conceded and field position when conceded. Same with penalties. That info will never be readily available though as it could be quite revealing when applied to certain teams.

 

[Tucker]

Genuine question. Who do you think had a worse squad? I think parra underperformed with their squad.

It’s not about having a worse squad.
In 23 we needed 2 extra wins and if you remember, we dropped a heap of games we should have won. We came last that year because we played scared. Scared to lose, which caused many losses.
In 24 we also needed 2 extra wins, probably 1 extra if we made some god damned tackles.

 

[Tiger-ferret]

It’s not about having a worse squad.
In 23 we needed 2 extra wins and if you remember, we dropped a heap of games we should have won. We came last that year because we played scared. Scared to lose, which caused many losses.
In 24 we also needed 2 extra wins, probably 1 extra if we made some god damned tackles.

I think the squad quality is a huge contributor. No of debutants. No of players used. Average age of player. Rep player experience.

For example, Is there a stat on age/experience per error rate or missed tackles?

 

[426Tlgerland]

David Klemmer is going to shut a heap of so called Tigers supporters up in 2025 , this guy come to our club to assist and was sent out with piss week help , now he has some class in May and Hunt along with Pole , he will rise up from where he was to a new high , mark my words , put it down for round 12 to come back and say you were wrong or other , Benji can only afford to play the guys who are winners ,screw the must play 14 games rubbish , if he goes well you keep him, klem is a keeper a silent sleeper m

 

[Tucker]

I think the squad quality is a huge contributor. No of debutants. No of players used. Average age of player. Rep player experience.

For example, Is there a stat on age/experience per error rate or missed tackles?

That’s all on the coaches.
They made those calls.
No one held a gun to their heads and forced them to start so many total greenhorns

 

[Jolls]

That’s all on the coaches.
They made those calls.
No one held a gun to their heads and forced them to start so many total greenhorns

While that is true, it is equally true that the experienced players available weren't delivering. If they continued playing the non performers they would have been hauled over the coals for doing so. Maybe we could have avoided the spoon, but the overall performance from the playing roster was poor.

I unknown, from the outside looking in, is how much of ther teams performance can be lumped on the coaching staff and how much was directly related to the playing roster and the mental/cultural state of the club itself.

2025 will provide some insight. On paper our forward stocks are probably on par with what we had in 2024. Our halves will improve with Luai but there isn't a great deal of quality change outside of that. What we had on paper certainly weren't playing to potential in 2025. Given that, less Luai, there isn't a significant change in player potential. However, they could be the catalyst that change the culture and mindset of the playing group.

If we can go from hoping to win a game (which is what I expect was the mindset has been for the last couple of years) to expecting to win we are a long way towards achiving it.

I have heard a few reputable commentators speak about Benjis knoweldge of the game and his ability to motivate players. I have seen glimpses of that, but not enough to be convinced that he has "it". We only have to look as far back as our last game to see how badly he got that preparation wrong. That alone demonstrates that he still has a bit to learn. A hard way to learn that lesson, but I'm willing to bet he will never forget it.

So I'm not hard over on it all being on the coaches. I think we have had a losing culture embedded in the plying group for a while. Let's trust that our new blood and our young kids bring the energy required to change the mindset of the playing group. That will determine where we finish in 2025 more that the cattle themselves.