Do we have the mongrel we need?

[Harvey]

Hetherington, Horsburgh and Seyfarth together frightens me

3 roster spots to get one on the park any given week while the other 2 are suspended

 

[The Chad]

You're drawing long bows.

Do Radley and co. exclusively win their games? Or is more to do with Walker, Keary, Manu and Teddy and their class shining through.

I'm not going to argue that I don't want an intimidating pack, everyone wants that. But there are more variables in creating a dominant pack than just picking big, angry boys.

To reiterate, I'd love an angry pack. But I want good players first. I don't put Hethrington in that box.

Obviously the Roosters have many reasons they win.

But it was against them that I realised how our forwards, despite being skilled & reputable, are 'bullied' by teams. We have a very soft belly. Utoikamanu, for his size, is a soft tackler. Pole is way worse (and I think Pole is great- but in a Leniu kind of way). Bateman, for all his weirdness, didn't lose physical battles. Seyfarth, for all his awkwardness, has impact. Klemmer, for all his slowness, is our most solid defensive middle.

The Storm, Bulldogs, Dolphins & even the Roosters forwards are not BIG metre gainers. They are very hard through the middle, however. They give you nothing. It's rare that you see opposition forwards go to town on those squads.

I watched the Roosters bully the Tigers & remembered Blocker Roach talking about the early days going to Newcastle & teams hating it because you knew, even though they were not the most skilled team, you'd be wearing it all game.

If we are in 'culture building' stages as a club, I'd personally like to be known as that rough & tumble team that you don't want to go & play because you know you'll feel it later. Teach our young guys to be that.

 

[Kelce68]

I feel like I'm Hetherington's cheer squad some days, which is ridiculous because I've never been the biggest fan tbh.

But- the critics of Hetherington I think tend to get sensationalised by the big mistakes- the high tackles, fights etc. These are NOT every 5 minutes. They aren't repeat sets of 6 on the 5th tackle. It's not laying on the tackled player and giving a penalty away to let the opposition out of their own 10m & release the pressure.

There are penalties, and then there are 'penalties'.

The Tigers give games away on the back of dumb penalties. Not sensational ones.

I agree.

There is definitely a difference in how and when indiscretions happen.

But, I don't have the nuanced data on that specifically for Hethrington to really comment about that specifically.

And I doubt you do either.

 

[Tucker]

They're names you mentioned, not me.

But yes, Sezer and Klemmer should be on the chopping block. Bateman obviously already is. Likewise with Naden.

Seyfarth is borderline, specifically as it pertains to his discipline.

Api is, obviously, an exemption, despite the fact that even his form of late has been down on his normally high standards.

If your argument is that Jack Hethrington hasn't had issues with discipline, regardless of his 2024 disciplinary stats, then so be it.

I noticed you made no mention of his yardage output that I also included in my argument against his signing.

They are names I mentioned because they are the top of the heap for ill discipline this year.
Our most error prone player this year is Bula who has produced 27 errors, placing him inside the top 10 competition wide. Our second worst is Api.
The person giving away the most penalties this year is Sezer with 16, placing him 3rd highest in the comp. Our second worst is Api.
Our most penalised for ruck infringements is Sezer and Stef.
Sin bins...Seyfarth and Api.

Sezer is our worst offender...Api is close behind him, then Klemmer and Seyfarth. By your own reasoning, all 4 should be let go.

As for Hetherington, I was commenting on the obviously incorrect labelling of him as the posterboy for penalties. There is a stigma attached to him that Bateman shares.
He hasnt been setting the world alight for meters gained (61m/game as you say), but he doesnt play big minutes either....average of 25/game.

 

[Tucker]

3 roster spots to get one on the park any given week while the other 2 are suspended

1 game suspended in season 2024 between the three of them.

 

[Kelce68]

They are names I mentioned because they are the top of the heap for ill discipline this year.
Our most error prone player this year is Bula who has produced 27 errors, placing him inside the top 10 competition wide. Our second worst is Api.
The person giving away the most penalties this year is Sezer with 16, placing him 3rd highest in the comp. Our second worst is Api.
Our most penalised for ruck infringements is Sezer and Stef.
Sin bins...Seyfarth and Api.

Sezer is our worst offender...Api is close behind him, then Klemmer and Seyfarth. By your own reasoning, all 4 should be let go.

As for Hetherington, I was commenting on the obviously incorrect labelling of him as the posterboy for penalties. There is a stigma attached to him that Bateman shares.
He hasnt been setting the world alight for meters gained (61m/game as you say), but he doesnt play big minutes either....average of 25/game.

Another reason to avoid signing him.

Jack Hethrington is not the type of player I want or feel we need in our squad. He rightly has a stigma attached to him because of a history of indiscretions over a long period of time.

Its the same as Seyfarth, JWH, Radley, etc. All those reputations are earned.

Per your stats, it appears he's having a better year this year. If so, credit to him for improving in this area and if it's a permanent change, maybe he indeed is worth a look.

But I won't entertain the argument that he over the course of his career, hasn't had issues with discipine. Becuase that's just silly.

 

[innsaneink]

Hetherington, Horsburgh and Seyfarth together frightens me

But it's all for nothing if they don't win the Ruck consistently

 

[Tucker]

Jack Hethrington is not the type of player I want or feel we need in our squad. He rightly has a stigma attached to him because of a history of indiscretions over a long period of time.

Its the same as Seyfarth, JWH, Radley, etc. All those reputations are earned.

But I won't entertain the argument that he over the course of his career, hasn't had issues with discipine. Becuase that's just silly.

He isnt as bad as you claim. Im not sure why you selcted Alex but he is fine.

Alex Seyfarth penalties 2024 = 10 in 18 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2023 = 3 in 14 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2022 = 9 in 17 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2021 = 6 in 12 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2020 = 1 in 4 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2019 = 3 in 17 games
Grand total of 32 penalties in 65 games or 1 penalty every 2.03 games.

Jack Hetherington penalties 2024 = 4 in 15 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2024 = 12 in 25 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2022 = 1 in 3 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2021 = 17 in 17 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2020 = 5 in 8 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2019 = 1 in 2 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2018 = 12 in 13 games
Grand total of 52 penalties in 83 games or 1 penalty every 1.6 games

 

[Kelce68]

He isnt as bad as you claim. Im not sure why you selcted Alex but he is fine.

Alex Seyfarth penalties 2024 = 10 in 18 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2023 = 3 in 14 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2022 = 9 in 17 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2021 = 6 in 12 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2020 = 1 in 4 games
Alex Seyfarth penalties 2019 = 3 in 17 games
Grand total of 32 penalties in 65 games or 1 penalty every 2.03 games.

Jack Hetherington penalties 2024 = 4 in 15 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2024 = 12 in 25 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2022 = 1 in 3 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2021 = 17 in 17 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2020 = 5 in 8 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2019 = 1 in 2 games
Jack Hetherington penalties 2018 = 12 in 13 games
Grand total of 52 penalties in 83 games or 1 penalty every 1.6 games

I do genuinely appreciate the effort in gathering this data. I think neither you or I have any interest in being incorrect.

When I mentioned Alex, it was inclusive of more than simply penalties per se; errors, six agains, likelihood of being involved in negative play/interactions, the timing of indiscretions, etc. I don't think he carries the same level of stigma as an Adrian Morley did for example, but I'd be surprised if most league fans wouldn't put him in that group of players that sail pretty close to the wind. Ditto with Bateman and more akin to a younger Klemmer.

There is also more at play if we are to look at career stats, including types, lengths and frequency of suspension.

This is not a call to action, I'm not asking you to keep digging into the data. I understand that is quite time consuming.

To put a line under it, I don't want Hethrington. I think he is largely ineffectual, doesn't have a particularly impressive motor or skillset and presents a risk in the disciplinary department. I don't think those stats do a very good job of disproving that assertion. 1.6 games/penalty is not exactly spectacular.

But I take your point that his reputation may be a bit exaggerated.

Still don't want him anywhere near the club.

 

[Tucker]

I do genuinely appreciate the effort in gathering this data. I think neither you or I have any interest in being incorrect.

When I mentioned Alex, it was inclusive of more than simply penalties per se; errors, six agains, likelihood of being involved in negative play/interactions, the timing of indiscretions, etc. I don't think he carries the same level of stigma as an Adrian Morley did for example, but I'd be surprised if most league fans wouldn't put him in that group of players that sail pretty close to the wind. Ditto with Bateman and more akin to a younger Klemmer.

There is also more at play if we are to look at career stats, including types, lengths and frequency of suspension.

This is not a call to action, I'm not asking you to keep digging into the data. I understand that is quite time consuming.

To put a line under it, I don't want Hethrington. I think he is largely ineffectual, doesn't have a particularly impressive motor or skillset and presents a risk in the disciplinary department. I don't think those stats do a very good job of disproving that assertion. 1.6 games/penalty is not exactly spectacular.

But I take your point that his reputation may be a bit exaggerated.

Still don't want him anywhere near the club.

That's fair enough - I agree that his output is not high enough for a club like us. We need workhorses.

That said, I think the stigma that follows certain players is largely constructed by the media and fans with an axe to grind who convince the masses that the narrative is correct. However if you really drill down into it, its often misleading and unfair.

2 examples...John Bateman and Api Koroisau.
On the surface, most Wests Tigers fans would automatically state that Bateman has been terrible for us and Api has been brilliant...despite them both playing a similar amount of games for us and both being here for what looks like consecutive spoons. An outsider would be more objective and say neither have worked, however one came to us with glowing praise and the other had a lot of question marks hanging over them - particularly surrounding discipline, therefor one is scrutinised far more than the other.
Api has presented worse disicipline of the two.
Additionally, they both returned good stats with Api 16 try assists, John averaging over 100m/game and both averaging over 35 tackles/game. They both have bad stats as well...i.e. John averages 1 error/game and Api averages 5.3 missed tackles per game.
Despite this, one is considered untouchable for criticism whilst the other is ran out of the club 2 years early as the fans rejoice!

 

[The Chad]

That's fair enough - I agree that his output is not high enough for a club like us. We need workhorses.

That said, I think the stigma that follows certain players is largely constructed by the media and fans with an axe to grind who convince the masses that the narrative is correct. However if you really drill down into it, its often misleading and unfair.

2 examples...John Bateman and Api Koroisau.
On the surface, most Wests Tigers fans would automatically state that Bateman has been terrible for us and Api has been brilliant...despite them both playing a similar amount of games for us and both being here for what looks like consecutive spoons. An outsider would be more objective and say neither have worked, however one came to us with glowing praise and the other had a lot of question marks hanging over them - particularly surrounding discipline. Api has presented worse disicipline of the two.
Additionally, they both returned good stats with Api 16 try assists, John averaging over 100m/game and both averaging over 35 tackles/game. They both have bad stats as well...i.e. John averages 1 error
/game and Api averages 5.3 missed tackles per game.
Despite this, one is considered untouchable for criticism whilst the other is ran out of the club 2 years early as the fans rejoice!

It's entirely possible the general rugby league fan allows themselves to be influenced by 'knowledgable' football men, like Rothfield, Hooper, Read, Carayanis etc...

 

[Winston Churchill]

I cant work out if this thread is meant to be serious. Do we have mongrel? We have zero impact powder puff forwards and wimpy attitude across the entire squad into the coaches box. Is that a serious question?

 

[The Chad]

That's fair enough - I agree that his output is not high enough for a club like us. We need workhorses.

That said, I think the stigma that follows certain players is largely constructed by the media and fans with an axe to grind who convince the masses that the narrative is correct. However if you really drill down into it, its often misleading and unfair.

2 examples...John Bateman and Api Koroisau.
On the surface, most Wests Tigers fans would automatically state that Bateman has been terrible for us and Api has been brilliant...despite them both playing a similar amount of games for us and both being here for what looks like consecutive spoons. An outsider would be more objective and say neither have worked, however one came to us with glowing praise and the other had a lot of question marks hanging over them - particularly surrounding discipline, therefor one is scrutinised far more than the other.
Api has presented worse disicipline of the two.
Additionally, they both returned good stats with Api 16 try assists, John averaging over 100m/game and both averaging over 35 tackles/game. They both have bad stats as well...i.e. John averages 1 error/game and Api averages 5.3 missed tackles per game.
Despite this, one is considered untouchable for criticism whilst the other is ran out of the club 2 years early as the fans rejoice!

Some players do carry a stigma. This club carries a stigma.

Sometimes I wonder if you're better off just reveling in it. Use it as the ammunition that brings the squad together.

I'd suggest that building our very own 'bad boys' club isn't THAT bad a thing. So long as they don't let it get out of hand, it's your schtick, your calling card.

Your 'culture'.

I reference the Roosters a lot. JWH. Collins. Radley.

in 2024 JWH is 6th overall for penalties given.

Crighton is 11th.

Radley is 13th.


Collins comes in at 100. But Tupouniua is 42nd overall & Nat Butcher & Connor Watson not far off.

Walker is 2nd most penalised player in the NRL.

The Roosters happily give away penalties. It's not that big a deal. Getting beaten through the middle IS a big deal though.

 

[jirskyr]

Its strange because I think the intention was to introduce mongrel and grunt with the likes of Klemmer and Bateman. Problem is they have been nothing but pussy cats....

I think the word choice is wrong.

Klemmer and Bateman are mongrels. But as mongrels, often discipline is the issue. You cannot scrap your way through the NRL 80 minutes a week every week. You need discipline and power. You need to cut errors and choose the moments when to apply the blowtorch. You need to make the opponent struggle in every tackle and always threaten to get your arms free for the offload.

You can't just pull scary faces and point your finger, you need to back it up with scary power and tenacity, but in a controlled manner where you don't lose your cool or make too many mistakes.

 

[jirskyr]

Some players do carry a stigma. This club carries a stigma.

Sometimes I wonder if you're better off just reveling in it. Use it as the ammunition that brings the squad together.

I'd suggest that building our very own 'bad boys' club isn't THAT bad a thing. So long as they don't let it get out of hand, it's your schtick, your calling card.

Your 'culture'.

I reference the Roosters a lot. JWH. Collins. Radley.

in 2024 JWH is 6th overall for penalties given.

Crighton is 11th.

Radley is 13th.


Collins comes in at 100. But Tupouniua is 42nd overall & Nat Butcher & Connor Watson not far off.

Walker is 2nd most penalised player in the NRL.

The Roosters happily give away penalties. It's not that big a deal. Getting beaten through the middle IS a big deal though.

I read an interesting analysis last month about how some teams have learned to game the 6-again call, being confident in their goal-line defence, so they tactically give 6-agains if the defensive shape is pulled apart, especially on the early tackles.

Defending on your own line being the least energy cost of all defence because you hardly have to retreat. Obviously the big risk-reward is the opponent can barge over, but if the opponent is already down your end of the field (as opposed to gifting them field position coming out of their own end), some teams are happy to give away the penalties.

 

[Tiger_heart]

I cant work out if this thread is meant to be serious. Do we have mongrel? We have zero impact powder puff forwards and wimpy attitude across the entire squad into the coaches box. Is that a serious question?

It's as serious question as any (or most?) a fan could ask, in search of what may potentially be some things that, from the outside, appear to some of us. Hence, to your point, to bring a Luai or whoever into a club that, to use your words, has a "wimpy attitude across the entire squad into the coaches box" is probably not going to change our season a whole lot. I think The Chad said it best.

 

[Tom Shines]

I cant work out if this thread is meant to be serious. Do we have mongrel? We have zero impact powder puff forwards and wimpy attitude across the entire squad into the coaches box. Is that a serious question?

You only need see how they start games .., they come out with low intensity … drop a few balls and before you know it they are down 12-0 and it’s a case of “here we go again”…

 

[Tucker]

Some players do carry a stigma. This club carries a stigma.

Sometimes I wonder if you're better off just reveling in it. Use it as the ammunition that brings the squad together.

I'd suggest that building our very own 'bad boys' club isn't THAT bad a thing. So long as they don't let it get out of hand, it's your schtick, your calling card.

Your 'culture'.

I reference the Roosters a lot. JWH. Collins. Radley.

in 2024 JWH is 6th overall for penalties given.

Crighton is 11th.

Radley is 13th.


Collins comes in at 100. But Tupouniua is 42nd overall & Nat Butcher & Connor Watson not far off.

Walker is 2nd most penalised player in the NRL.

The Roosters happily give away penalties. It's not that big a deal. Getting beaten through the middle IS a big deal though.

Yes I agree.

The Roosters are consistently the most ill disciplined side. Why hasnt Robbo worked on this? The answer is obvious....with the foul play, comes intimidation through crunching defence. It takes a lot of balls to have a crack at the Roosters up the middle....you are going to be punished at some stage as pretty much their whole pack run around with both shoulders cocked.

Take the Warrios side pre anti punching policy. The narrative was "dont start a knuckle with these guys, they are all street fighters". Other packs were scared of them lol...and they were emboldenened to act up to their tag of a bunch of thrashing machines not to be messed with. The commentators, especially Kiwi, used to spread this claim every game and laugh about other sides starting trouble with them "ooooh I wouldnt do that, he once knocked 6 bouncers out in Rotorua when he was 17". 😁

 

[The Chad]

I've seen a couple of people post that they heard/saw that Horsburgh has been given permission to look elsewhere.

Is that true? If so, my Bash Bro's idea could be coming together!