Help me (and others) keep faith in Madge...

[Cairnstigers]

4 coaches in 8 years, seriously people....

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.

People keep mentioning that Madge inherited Ivan's overpriced duds and unbalanced roster. Potter inherited the Sheens/Humphreys backended contract disaster & JT could not sign anyone other than reserve graders and has beens due to the cap space.

All these coaches have been in a similar predicament and all have produced similar results. I am not sure there is any valid argument to suggest that one is better than the others.

JT chose Jordan Rankin over Josh Addo-Carr
Enough said

 

[Lauren]

4 coaches in 8 years, seriously people....

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.

People keep mentioning that Madge inherited Ivan's overpriced duds and unbalanced roster. Potter inherited the Sheens/Humphreys backended contract disaster & JT could not sign anyone other than reserve graders and has beens due to the cap space.

All these coaches have been in a similar predicament and all have produced similar results. I am not sure there is any valid argument to suggest that one is better than the others.

I think having Taupau, Woods, Moses,Tedesco, Simona, JAC in(or coming into) their prime years with no cap is a lot better than what we currently have.
From that lot, I honestly think Ivan (before bolting) would've had the better circumstances though.

 

[jadtiger]

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.

Agreed in regards to Potter but no way can i agree with JT he should never have been hired

 

[cochise]

I don’t know what you mean by that

What I mean is Matto was leaving, right? He asked for a release. You can hold onto him as a bargaining chip or trade or compensation, but that's not actually what's happening, because the minute he hits 01/Nov/19 you have to start paying him his 2020 salary. By the time preseason has finished you have paid him 4 months salary, i.e. 33% of his wage, and he hasn't played a single game.

Let's say Matto was on $600K, then you've paid him $200K to basically train even when you know he won't play.

That $200K you can save and put elsewhere. That's the compensation, not having to pay Matterson whilst he collects your dollar turning up to training.

And no, Luciano signed with Tigers 1 month (Nov 30) after Matto was released (Oct 31).

I totally disagree re Luciano and Matterson, I think Matterson's output 2020 is well below what he did for Tigers in 2019 where he was on the cusp of origin selection. Luciano is twice the player he was at Dragons, our player of the year 2020 by some distance.

I couldn't have said that any better.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.


Agreed in regards to Potter but no way can i agree with JT he should never have been hired

Why not, they were dealt the same hand

 

[Tim Sheens]

I want to know who the Madge haters want as coach?

Haven't we longed for a coach who makes players accountable, and will not accept mediocre performances no matter what your name or status in the game is?

He hasn't been able to do that more recently because 1, we don't have the players and 2 there's too much pressure to send out Rowdy and Benji on the field.

Madge is not the issue, the cattle is. We are a weak club, and those who complain can see themselves out.

Side note, irks me that Saint Ivan doesn't get hammered enough in the media for what he did at this club in terms of the signings he made.

I can't wait until one journo asks him about Packer, Matulino, Mbye and Reynolds.

Pretty sure that he would like a fit Matulino running out for him each week, as Ben is exactly what we are missing in the middle.

 

[Tigerdave]

we don't have the cattle, we have a centre playing fullback and we have no halves.............not much he can do



How about he just gets us to compete, like Holbrook has done at titans and Payten with the warriors with a side that as players coming and going every week


we were competing and then the wheels fell off after the Bronco's game................as for the Titans a -147 for and against doesn't suggest they have been competing very well, but yes the Warriors went up a gear with Payten, however that was a change of coach which clearly helped..............it's never helped us in the past

Are the titans now above us ? But there not competing better

You're just raising the goal posts, you stated "How about he just gets us to compete"

Their for and against certainly is telling and 1 more win than us? Seriously?

Seriously what more wins in the win lose column no matter what the for and against is still puts you in front but you already know that.The point I was trying to make and maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly is that over the course of the season titans have showed steady improvement unlike us

Have they though? Given their opposition over the last 4 weeks it's hard to tell. This is what I said earlier. None of the sides they faced in the last 4 weeks are in the 8.

We'll see how they go against the Knights.

 

[Tigerdave]

4 coaches in 8 years, seriously people....

Other teams have had as many if not more....
Just saying...

which ones?

 

[Tigerdave]

4 coaches in 8 years, seriously people....

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.

People keep mentioning that Madge inherited Ivan's overpriced duds and unbalanced roster. Potter inherited the Sheens/Humphreys backended contract disaster & JT could not sign anyone other than reserve graders and has beens due to the cap space.

All these coaches have been in a similar predicament and all have produced similar results. I am not sure there is any valid argument to suggest that one is better than the others.

That's right, pulled the trigger way too early on those coaches, so even if Madge was punted, we'd be going back to square one............we can't keep doing that. They need to stick with this guy for a couple more years and give him time to rebuild.

 

[Goanna57]

we don't have the cattle, we have a centre playing fullback and we have no halves.............not much he can do



How about he just gets us to compete, like Holbrook has done at titans and Payten with the warriors with a side that as players coming and going every week


we were competing and then the wheels fell off after the Bronco's game................as for the Titans a -147 for and against doesn't suggest they have been competing very well, but yes the Warriors went up a gear with Payten, however that was a change of coach which clearly helped..............it's never helped us in the past

Are the titans now above us ? But there not competing better

You're just raising the goal posts, you stated "How about he just gets us to compete"

Their for and against certainly is telling and 1 more win than us? Seriously?

Seriously what more wins in the win lose column no matter what the for and against is still puts you in front but you already know that.The point I was trying to make and maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly is that over the course of the season titans have showed steady improvement unlike us

Have they though? Given their opposition over the last 4 weeks it's hard to tell. This is what I said earlier. None of the sides they faced in the last 4 weeks are in the 8.

We'll see how they go against the Knights.

Dave you can only beat the side you are playing, but if you think that they haven’t shown more improvement over the last 6 weeks than us just like everyone you’re entitled to your opinion. I am sure we only want the club to be successful

 

[Tigerdave]

we don't have the cattle, we have a centre playing fullback and we have no halves.............not much he can do



How about he just gets us to compete, like Holbrook has done at titans and Payten with the warriors with a side that as players coming and going every week


we were competing and then the wheels fell off after the Bronco's game................as for the Titans a -147 for and against doesn't suggest they have been competing very well, but yes the Warriors went up a gear with Payten, however that was a change of coach which clearly helped..............it's never helped us in the past

Are the titans now above us ? But there not competing better

You're just raising the goal posts, you stated "How about he just gets us to compete"

Their for and against certainly is telling and 1 more win than us? Seriously?

Seriously what more wins in the win lose column no matter what the for and against is still puts you in front but you already know that.The point I was trying to make and maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly is that over the course of the season titans have showed steady improvement unlike us

Have they though? Given their opposition over the last 4 weeks it's hard to tell. This is what I said earlier. None of the sides they faced in the last 4 weeks are in the 8.

We'll see how they go against the Knights.

Dave you can only beat the side you are playing, but if you think that they haven’t shown more improvement over the last 6 weeks than us just like everyone you’re entitled to your opinion. I am sure we only want the club to be successful

Absolutely want the club to be successful, as would everyone else here. I don't know what's happened since the game started up again after round 2, we were going pretty good for a while there, but I just think that Madge needs to be given more time, we just haven't let prior coaches have the time required to turn us around

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I’m a Madge fan. He’s the first coach we’ve had for sometime who can see the systemic issues the club has and is prepared to make tough calls. No more sweetheart deals for rusted on players, no more accepting inconsistency and mediocrity.

We’ve gone backwards this year? Fine. Personally I’d rather run 10th or worse for a couple of years if it means a top 4 team in a few years time. Finishing 9th repeatedly, being vaguely competitive, bring on the cusp of 8th with zero prospects of being a title contender? Had enough of that.

I don't think that is the case..even Taylor identified that Wests Tigers are soft mentally who are terrible defensively ..

We have heard the same from following coaches..so far all have failed to change it for any period of time despite the best effort and talk..

But he’s the only one I see as actually do something constructive. Plenty talked it up but then kept selecting the usual suspects. Taylor wasted all his time trying to get rid of one of the better players. Cleary went for the quick fix and blew our future cap on poor buys. None of them did a proper managed clean out.

If you look at it from the time when Sheens was here ,he had them playing fast attacking football...the old score more points than them and we win scenario...

Although we have had other coaches since try and change the style of play,Madge is the only one that has staunchly stated the change in culture first and foremost and its no wonder he is a coach who builds gameplans on defensive structures....this team and club at the moment cant handle the change implemented and thats why we see the team ""regressing ""so to speak...I put it down to adapting which takes longer than expected sometimes..

This is why you see Benji being the attacking player he is ...its what he was taught and specialised in it....thats why his defense is so poor...

The reality is Benji's attacking game is probably the best for a half in the NRL. His defence is not the strongest but could be accommodated in a better defensive team.

In a team already accommodating other defensive liabilities on the right, it is hard to hide all of them as Bellamy exposed. I'd rather move the others on and keep Benji. I loved those passes to Kepaoa.

"Move others on."

This works well if they want to go and it's not to the detriment of the club.

 

[Telltails]

I still believe coaches are only as good as the squad and people they have to work with. Until a coach can lift a lower club to a title with the players he inherits expecting miracles from any coach is the setting up for disappointllment. Even the grwat Bellamy couldn't coach the Blues to victory over his own players. We need to build a squad of players that can match the opposition and a cap where the best are getting paid to be the best. If Maguure cant assemble that group then that will determine his future at WTs

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I think Madge has done well with our roster.

- Big money signings in Grub and Packer injured/suspended/ineffective.
- Halves have been a merry-go-round.
- No real competitive depth and an unbalanced roster.

I mean any year you don't make the 8 is by default a failure but in context I'm not so sure our roster on paper is any higher bottom three. A 10th placed finish is probably over achieving.

There's moves being made in junior identification and development as well. Changing coaches hasn't worked. Let Madge have a go, and if it doesn't work out then nothing ventured, nothing gained, but I'll be damned if we axe another coach to appease a playing group that hasn't played finals football for 9 seasons. I'd rather things not work out trying a different approach rather than recycling the same approach from the last 9 seasons and expecting a different outcome.

 

[jirskyr]

We pulled the trigger too early on Potter & JT. They had us on the right path.

I never warmed to JT but I do wonder how Potter would have done over 4 seasons. The issue is Potter had a 2-year deal and only got as close as 13th, and that's just not going to cut it after you are trying to replace Sheens.

In hindsight however Potter joined with Benji, Farah, Lawrence all entrenched, Woods playing Origin, Tedesco and Nofo's first full season, Brooks and Moses just about to debut. Nathan Brown also debuted in 2013, Galloway was injured a lot that year but still good. Fulton was still going, Koroibete was available.

Move to 2014 and Potter has brought in Taupau, Gavet and Matt Lodge, Moses has debuted. Pat Richards is back. Blake Austin is an astute pickup from Penrith and plays 11 games.

It's not roses obviously, Marshall has been moved on and Braith Anasta was brought in. But just look at that talent in 2014-2015 and the upside of what is essentially a pack of Woods, Fulton, Taupau, Brown, Galloway, Lodge, Farah. Tedesco, Lawrence, Brooks, Moses, Richards, Koroibete in the backs.

Then JT comes in, feels that he needs to shake the roster up - easy to criticise JT here but what is true is that Tigers' haven't got closer than 10th since 2012, after having been genuine title contenders in 2010-2011. There is a reasonable argument that some players need to be moved on, but Farah's managed departure creates a debacle, JT himself only gets 15th in his first season, then he gets it close for 2016 and we come 9th, but the club decides to cut him loose early 2017. Cleary has become available, he's a good coach, Tigers make the move, the big-name players decide it's time to go elsewhere, Roosters swoop on Tedesco, the rest is history.

Also in defence of those coaches particularly Potter, we did not have ourselves together off-field at that time, wrt board clashes, ownership issues, Balmain debt etc. People LOVE slagging off Pascoe, but the reality is since he joined in Sep 2015 the "organisation", i.e. the business, has stabilised and managed the finances well. The board is basically dead-quiet now, some major sponsors are well and truly in the fold, Wests have completed the Balmain take-over (which by default quells the disagreements), we no longer have the "basket-case" tag.

Unfortunately for us as supporters, the period of an emerging highly-talented roster has not coincided with the club getting its off-field together. If we had managed both at the same time, say ~2012-2013, we could potentially have had a top-level squad with a stable coach and newly stabilised organisation. And now we have a stable organisation with improved facilities on the way, but it's the roster that needs a tonne of work, mostly because it's been clumped together from designs of 2 previous coaches, with finances tied up to those 2 previous coaches.

Or if Madge had been the one signed on in 2013...

rant over, sorry

 

[tiger_one]

Just for interest, Potter is currently coaching Mounties in Reserve Grade (Canterbury Cup).
That seems his level.

 

[Tim Sheens]

we don't have the cattle, we have a centre playing fullback and we have no halves.............not much he can do



How about he just gets us to compete, like Holbrook has done at titans and Payten with the warriors with a side that as players coming and going every week


we were competing and then the wheels fell off after the Bronco's game................as for the Titans a -147 for and against doesn't suggest they have been competing very well, but yes the Warriors went up a gear with Payten, however that was a change of coach which clearly helped..............it's never helped us in the past

Are the titans now above us ? But there not competing better

You're just raising the goal posts, you stated "How about he just gets us to compete"

Their for and against certainly is telling and 1 more win than us? Seriously?

Seriously what more wins in the win lose column no matter what the for and against is still puts you in front but you already know that.The point I was trying to make and maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly is that over the course of the season titans have showed steady improvement unlike us

Definitely and the difference is quite shocking, as shown below, with the Titans season improvement since mid season being in leaps and bounds, whilst WT, apart from a couple of coming home to win at the death , sliding down along the snake in that board game.

Edit; Can't upload the screen shots for some reason. Anyway, after ten rounds:

WT were on 10 points with +68 and now 14 points with -61 differential

GC were on 6 points with -159 and now 16 points with -147 differential

 

[Tigerbuck63]

I think WT really have to muscle up and start to demonstrate they're not going to continue as a soft touch. Tear up the contracts of players not performing inc the high priced ones- pay them out and get rid of them.Take the NRL to court over the Farah penalty amount- he has not taken it up to date and probably wont now. Our early release of Corey Thompson has bitten us but I can only assume somewhere in the background WT were supposed to get a backline player but that didnt eventuate. Matterson's release without compensation and the obvious Parra meddling. If Bankwest / Parra Stadium is not working out rip it up - we did it because ANZ stadium was going to be torn down. State Govt reversed decision on that so why should we be bound to a ground situation forced on us? And for gods sake pick a home ground.

The coach has a plan to turn things around with getting youth pipeline working and gradually ridding the deadwood- both players and coaching / support staff. I'm for giving Maguire 2 more years to actually be able to judge him in the final year or two when most of the 30 man roster is his and the salary cap can truely be matched against coach / team roster / team performance / club performance and strategy..

It’s a nice thought but tearing up $1.6M is not easy. The contract is between two parties, it’s much easier to have bravado and say than to actually execute. We have to be patient and accept that not much will change in 2021, 2022 is a different story.

Nice to know what the plan actually is but everything around the back end of the season is dealing with bush fires.

It’s a nothing statement last night by Madge about players no longer with club next season unless you elaborate or had discussions already considering the Benji debacle.

It just feeds media a story to write about without being factual and does not add to team culture.

Personally all it does is deflect the performance of the teams effort last night and the coach!!!

Until Packer & Reynolds leave, not much will change. Hopefully we get JAC and Tamou turns out to be a great buy. Other than that that’s probably all that will happen in 2021, apart from signing on a few players on minimal contracts.

Tend to agree another year of missing finals as other teams around us get better?

Reynolds, Packer, Mybe lose those 3 and the salary situation will ease yeah 2022.

Well Tamou is the only "new" player we have atm.
I am just hoping that he doesn't come here for a "rest" like a lot of these other blokes...It's absolutely disgusting how we buy players and they come here and do nothing...that's what I'm sick of about this club, I don't care whose fault or what coach was here at the time, don't these blokes have a conscience.

That's what upsets me most about the club, how that could happen in the first place, that's why I'm a little concerned about Tamou, as he is coming towards the end of his career, as some of these ones I have just spoken about, have as well, so they are almost ready to retire, and would be happy to not put in the hard yards and still get paid.:angry: and the club is asking us to renew out membership, I may give it a miss this year and see what happens:angry:

Agree but the difference with Tamou is that it’s only 2 years and small/med $ unlike other signings, interesting to see if selected Captain next season? We need leadership as well.

JAC looking unlikely tbh but we do need speed at the back.

 

[bbobb]

For all the talk about player signings, it is the assistant coaches that has me interested. With Hodgo and the other guy moving on, I believe they will be as important as our next marquee.

Look at the top teams this year, The Riff have Ciraldo as their defensive coach and the Roosters have Fitzgibbon and the Storm have Ryles- they are associated with much of their teams respective success.

If Madge surrounds himself with a good staff, it will go a long way to restoring my faith

 

[tigeress]

I think WT really have to muscle up and start to demonstrate they're not going to continue as a soft touch. Tear up the contracts of players not performing inc the high priced ones- pay them out and get rid of them.Take the NRL to court over the Farah penalty amount- he has not taken it up to date and probably wont now. Our early release of Corey Thompson has bitten us but I can only assume somewhere in the background WT were supposed to get a backline player but that didnt eventuate. Matterson's release without compensation and the obvious Parra meddling. If Bankwest / Parra Stadium is not working out rip it up - we did it because ANZ stadium was going to be torn down. State Govt reversed decision on that so why should we be bound to a ground situation forced on us? And for gods sake pick a home ground.

The coach has a plan to turn things around with getting youth pipeline working and gradually ridding the deadwood- both players and coaching / support staff. I'm for giving Maguire 2 more years to actually be able to judge him in the final year or two when most of the 30 man roster is his and the salary cap can truely be matched against coach / team roster / team performance / club performance and strategy..

It’s a nice thought but tearing up $1.6M is not easy. The contract is between two parties, it’s much easier to have bravado and say than to actually execute. We have to be patient and accept that not much will change in 2021, 2022 is a different story.

Nice to know what the plan actually is but everything around the back end of the season is dealing with bush fires.

It’s a nothing statement last night by Madge about players no longer with club next season unless you elaborate or had discussions already considering the Benji debacle.

It just feeds media a story to write about without being factual and does not add to team culture.

Personally all it does is deflect the performance of the teams effort last night and the coach!!!

Until Packer & Reynolds leave, not much will change. Hopefully we get JAC and Tamou turns out to be a great buy. Other than that that’s probably all that will happen in 2021, apart from signing on a few players on minimal contracts.

Tend to agree another year of missing finals as other teams around us get better?

Reynolds, Packer, Mybe lose those 3 and the salary situation will ease yeah 2022.

Well Tamou is the only "new" player we have atm.
I am just hoping that he doesn't come here for a "rest" like a lot of these other blokes...It's absolutely disgusting how we buy players and they come here and do nothing...that's what I'm sick of about this club, I don't care whose fault or what coach was here at the time, don't these blokes have a conscience.

That's what upsets me most about the club, how that could happen in the first place, that's why I'm a little concerned about Tamou, as he is coming towards the end of his career, as some of these ones I have just spoken about, have as well, so they are almost ready to retire, and would be happy to not put in the hard yards and still get paid.:angry: and the club is asking us to renew out membership, I may give it a miss this year and see what happens:angry:

Agree but the difference with Tamou is that it’s only 2 years and small/med $ unlike other signings, interesting to see if selected Captain next season? We need leadership as well.

JAC looking unlikely tbh but we do need speed at the back.

I guess the 2yr signing is ok for Tamou, and as you say he is Captain at Panthers so that is a pretty good sign I guess of his (character) at least:+1:

I said in an earlier post that I'd eat my hat if JAC came to the WT's - but on reflection we do need speed, and unless the new winger (Asu) improves and learns to catch the ball-we are up the creek again, anyway lets be hopeful eh :grin: